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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
FABARM 9.3 X 74 O/U
      #113626 - 05/09/08 04:19 AM

Whats the word on these rifles as i handled one yesterday without shooting it and i thought that it was a real shooter for my type of bush hunting.

Lightweight,short and fast handling,anything else for these rifles for one to be aware of?

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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farshot
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Re: FABARM 9.3 X 74 O/U [Re: gryphon]
      #113639 - 05/09/08 07:04 AM

Very nice rifles - here in Canada though we can only get single triggers. The one I saw in action in 9.3 x74R kept doubling. I still dont know if the operator was at fault (he liked to slowly squeeze the trigger like a sniper rifle with a relatively loose grip of the rifle) or if it was in its design. I of course demand double triggers. Other then that I agree with your assessment of them, especially for the price.

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ozhunter
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Re: FABARM 9.3 X 74 O/U [Re: farshot]
      #113666 - 05/09/08 12:21 PM

The rifle is built in Italy but the Barrels are from Germany.
Sounds like a good system.
I also thought it would make a nice rifle for caring around for be it Pigs , Sambar, Top end Buff or what ever.
Good price too.

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gryphon
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Re: FABARM 9.3 X 74 O/U [Re: ozhunter]
      #113962 - 08/09/08 07:09 PM

Single trigger on the one i handled was imo far better,though the "doubling" is disturbing, though more an operator fault i believe.

--------------------
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farshot
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Re: FABARM 9.3 X 74 O/U [Re: gryphon]
      #113983 - 09/09/08 01:02 AM

Thanks Gryphon - I would be interested to see if you do ever get a double - I tend to doubt it. I kept telling my friend that his doubling occurred as he feathered the trigger and generally handled it like a sniper rifle on a bi-pod rather then a double style rifle. He of course blamed the rifle.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: FABARM 9.3 X 74 O/U [Re: gryphon]
      #113993 - 09/09/08 06:10 AM

Quote:

Whats the word on these rifles as i handled one yesterday without shooting it and i thought that it was a real shooter for my type of bush hunting.

Lightweight,short and fast handling,anything else for these rifles for one to be aware of?



Fabarm rifles are OK, depending what you want them for, and what features they offer on the one you want!

I find the answers given you here to be confusing! Maybe it's just me, but to me some thing simply do not add up!

Quote:

Farshot:
Very nice rifles - here in Canada though we can only get single triggers. The one I saw in action in 9.3 x74R kept doubling. I still dont know if the operator was at fault (he liked to slowly squeeze the trigger like a sniper rifle with a relatively loose grip of the rifle) or if it was in its design. I of course demand double triggers. Other then that I agree with your assessment of them, especially for the price.



farshot, the above post doesn't make sense! The only way the grip on the rifle, or the finger's perchase on the trigger can cause a doubleing is if the finger slips off the front trigger, and hits the back trigger under recoil.

If the double rifle, with a single trigger doubles when the trigger is pulled for the first shot, the only thing that can cause that is a malfunctioning action lock system, no matter how you pull the trigger, unless you pull it twice.

One thing though it does indicate is, if the rifle DOUBLES with a single trigger, it means that the action machinicly cocks both barrels on opening. That part is good, because if the rifle cocks the both barrels on opening, is the only way the rifle can be fitted with two triggers, with the only benefit to double triggers so the rifle can be fired from either barrel at will. that also means the top barrel is completely indipendant from the bottom barrel. That means if something breaks in one lock, you still have a working single shot!




Quote:

Ozhunter:
The rifle is built in Italy but the Barrels are from Germany.
Sounds like a good system.
I also thought it would make a nice rifle for caring around for be it Pigs , Sambar, Top end Buff or what ever.
Good price too.




I agree fully with Ozhunter, with proper bullets, and bullet placement, the chambering is good for all the animals found in OZ, including the water buffalo, and bantang. The action being made in Italy is OK, and the barrels being made in Germany is excellent, and the only thing that would make that better is if the action was made in Germany as well!


Quote:

Gryphon:
Single trigger on the one i handled was imo far better,though the "doubling" is disturbing, though more an operator fault i believe.



If the one you are looking at doesn't double, then don't worry about it, in a double rifle with a single trigger that doubles, that is an individual thing, because the only way that can happen is if the lock for the offending barrel is not maintaneing sear engagement properly, or the shooter is pulling the trigger twice.


Quote:

farshot:

Thanks Gryphon - I would be interested to see if you do ever get a double - I tend to doubt it. I kept telling my friend that his doubling occurred as he feathered the trigger and generally handled it like a sniper rifle on a bi-pod rather then a double style rifle. He of course blamed the rifle.





farshot, If the single trigger double rifle is doubleing, then it is the fault of the rifle, not the opperator!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: FABARM 9.3 X 74 O/U [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #113994 - 09/09/08 06:18 AM


" farshot, If the single trigger double rifle is doubleing, then it is the fault of the rifle, not the opperator!"


Spot on.


I would strongly suggest he get the rifle looked at
by a gunsmith. Doubling rifles are dangerous. Someone may have played with and fucked it up.

Gryph - send me a PM on the other forum (I have just set you one) and we'll discuss it. Suggest a possible visit to Tim at McDonald's who has a few DR's on the shelf and a wealth of experience on all that are available on the market.

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450
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Reged: 30/12/06
Posts: 199
Loc: Melbourne,Victoria, Australia
Re: FABARM 9.3 X 74 O/U [Re: 500Nitro]
      #114027 - 09/09/08 04:06 PM

I own a Fabarm 9.3x74R. I have owned it for about six months and have put approximately 250 round through it with out any trouble with the single trigger doubling, or any other problem. Most of the rounds fired were during the regulation process with various bullets. Fabarm garantees that they will group the regulated load (which is 293 grain RWS Factory ammo) into 50mm at 50 metres.
I bought it from Tim at Mcdonalds Guns in Footscray. I am having a selector switch put in by Tim, to allow me to select barrel. This is mainly so that I can wear the barrel evenly as when hunting the first barrel tends to be fired more often than the second. This rifle is also used in competition. (I am aware of a winchester double in this calibre that is worn in the first barrel that there is signs of the bullets key holing. About 8000 round through that rifle.
My regulated load is with the 286 grain woodleigh at 2300 fps. The best 2 shot group I have achieved at 100 yards is 1 3/8" and regularly places 4 shots into 2 1/2" at 100 yards. I have not blooded it yet, even though it has been on a couple of sambar trips around Jamieson.

--------------------
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4seventy
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Re: FABARM 9.3 X 74 O/U [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #114032 - 09/09/08 04:36 PM

Quote:

farshot, If the single trigger double rifle is doubleing, then it is the fault of the rifle, not the opperator!



Mac,
I don't agree.
To start with, there are so many different designs for single triggers in double rifles that you cannot say that what does, or does not happen with one type will be the same for all single trigger systems.

It IS possible for shooter technique to cause some single triggers to double, and feathering the trigger is a perfect way to get a DD with some single trigger types even if all the lock system is functioning correctly and safely.
Just as you need to use a suitable technique with two triggers, you also need to do the same with singles.
Some shooters will naturally use a good tech and will not even realize that they are doing it.
Others will use an inappropriate technique and will have problems, one being double discharging.

Of course it is always possible that there was a fault of some kind which caused the doubling on that particular double, but you cannot rule out shooter error with single trigger systems.

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farshot
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Reged: 25/01/06
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Loc: Alberta Canada
Re: FABARM 9.3 X 74 O/U [Re: 4seventy]
      #114079 - 10/09/08 05:06 AM

I am just commenting on what I saw. He did have the rifle looked at by a competent gunsmith to no avail . He has since sold the rifle. I did not shoot it so I cannot say if it would double for me or not.

You are correct in that they may have an inertia type cocking for the second shot (so if your first does not fire - you are screwed - maybe 450 can say if his is this way), - and it did double quite often. We surmised that the recoil caused the rifle to move back, releasing the tension on the trigger, the second bbl would cock and then the bounce back forward would cause his wandering finger to hit the trigger again.

In any event he sold it and went back to a Steyr bolt rifle and he is happy. I liked the rifle otherwise - if it had double trigegrs I would buy one.

As an aside, I too had issues with my new Merkel 470 doubling and people told me it was operator error. Especialy when I had 2 good smiths look it over. One smith even changed the front trigger to an articulating type to give my big finger more room. He was depressed when it still doubled when I pulled the rear trigger first - it doubled that way all the time! The second smith, when I sent it back (he builds doubles btw)tore it all down and with a magnifier found a very tiny burr on a sear or whatever (I cant recall) It took some effort to work it out due to the hardness of the metal and voila, no more so-called operator induced doubling . Made me feel better too that I was not a klutz.

Point is, I guess you just never know with a rifle. Expensive, cheap or anywhere in between.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: FABARM 9.3 X 74 O/U [Re: 4seventy]
      #114169 - 11/09/08 10:24 AM

Quote:

Quote:

farshot, If the single trigger double rifle is doubleing, then it is the fault of the rifle, not the opperator!



Mac,
I don't agree.
To start with, there are so many different designs for single triggers in double rifles that you cannot say that what does, or does not happen with one type will be the same for all single trigger systems.

It IS possible for shooter technique to cause some single triggers to double, and feathering the trigger is a perfect way to get a DD with some single trigger types even if all the lock system is functioning correctly and safely.
Just as you need to use a suitable technique with two triggers, you also need to do the same with singles.
Some shooters will naturally use a good tech and will not even realize that they are doing it.
Others will use an inappropriate technique and will have problems, one being double discharging.

Of course it is always possible that there was a fault of some kind which caused the doubling on that particular double, but you cannot rule out shooter error with single trigger systems.



4seventy, I wouldn't say that it is imposible to cause a DD with single trigger technique, but I will say the chances of that happening, are so miniscule that IMO, 99% of the time, if it happens, the prudant thing to do is open the rifle, and fix it, because 99% of the time the offending lock is not holding the sear engagement properly. If you open the rifle, and find nothing wrong, then all you lost is a little time. If, however you ignore it and try to adjust you techneque, and you have a DD, or a AD and someone gets hurt, then what? ............... Chances are, if you have a DD, or AD, with a double rifle with a single trigger, there is something wrong with the rifle!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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4seventy
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Re: FABARM 9.3 X 74 O/U [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #114194 - 11/09/08 07:51 PM

Quote:

4seventy, I wouldn't say that it is imposible to cause a DD with single trigger technique, but I will say the chances of that happening, are so miniscule that IMO, 99% of the time,



Mac,
With all due respect, that simply is not true.
If you do some research on single trigger design right back from the beginning of it's use with double barrel rifles and shotguns, you'll find that there has always been a problem involving double discharge due to the shooter.
The problem was/is called "involuntary second pull" and it involves the shooter tightenening his grip during recoil just after the shot is fired, hitting the trigger again in the process, and accidently setting off the second barrel.
Pretty well all the better makers and manufacturers were well aware of this and many/most designed and incorporated some type of mechanical device in their single trigger systems in an attempt to prevent this particular type of double discharge from happening.
Many shooters perform this second pull without even realizing it, as it will not cause problems if you are shooting bolt actions, single shots, or doubles with 2 triggers.
However for these guys it can show up quickly with (some) doubles which are fitted with a single trigger.

You don't need to take my word for this though, because if you do some research on the subject you'll find plenty of information available.
One thing that often causes it IMO is where a shooter has a loose grip with his trigger hand, and a feather release on the trigger.
I know a guy who had been shooting big 2 trigger doubles for 20 years with no problem, who double discharged a big single trigger double every time he shot the thing.
Heaps of other guys shot the same gun without ever causing it to DD.
That was 18 years ago, and the gun has never caused a problem for anyone other than that shooter, and it just so happens that his technique was a loose grip and feather trigger release.
That instance is NOT the only one I know of regarding single trigger DD due to feathering the trigger pull.

Quote:

99% of the time, if it happens, the prudant thing to do is open the rifle, and fix it, because 99% of the time the offending lock is not holding the sear engagement properly.



99%!
Honestly, IMO I think you've just pulled that figure out of a hat.
I fail to see how any one person can speak for 99% of all the single trigger doubles on the planet, and for 99% of all shooters using them.

Quote:

If, however you ignore it and try to adjust you techneque, and you have a DD, or a AD and someone gets hurt, then what?



If you read my post again you'll see that I've already mentioned that yes, there is always the chance that a mechanical problem could also be the cause.
I did NOT say to ignore the possibility of a mechanical problem.
My post was saying don't ignore the possibility of the shooter being the cause of the problem.

To say that it is almost impossible for shooter technique to ever be able to cause double discharge with single trigger double rifles, is ignoring the well documented fact that gunmakers have been aware of for a very long time.


Edited by 4seventy (11/09/08 09:39 PM)

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DUGABOY1
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Re: FABARM 9.3 X 74 O/U [Re: 4seventy]
      #114232 - 12/09/08 05:10 AM

Quote:

Quote:

4seventy, I wouldn't say that it is imposible to cause a DD with single trigger technique, but I will say the chances of that happening, are so miniscule that IMO, 99% of the time,



Mac,
With all due respect, that simply is not true.
If you do some research on single trigger design right back from the beginning of it's use with double barrel rifles and shotguns, you'll find that there has always been a problem involving double discharge due to the shooter.
The problem was/is called "involuntary second pull" and it involves the shooter tightenening his grip during recoil just after the shot is fired, hitting the trigger again in the process, and accidently setting off the second barrel.





What did I say? If the single trigger double rifle double discharges, it is either the shooter pulling the trigger twice, or the rifle's lock system is malfunctioning!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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4seventy
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Re: FABARM 9.3 X 74 O/U [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #114399 - 14/09/08 04:39 PM

Quote:

What did I say? If the single trigger double rifle double discharges, it is either the shooter pulling the trigger twice, or the rifle's lock system is malfunctioning!



Yes, but you also said.....

Quote:

If the single trigger double rifle is doubleing, then it is the fault of the rifle, not the opperator!





A shooter "knowingly" pulling the trigger twice, and a shooter performing an involuntary second pull, are two very different things.
They are worlds apart.
Poor technique with any double rifle trigger system, can lead to problems.

A double discharge caused by an involuntary second pull is a DD caused by the shooter, not by the rifle.


Edited by 4seventy (15/09/08 12:09 PM)

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