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9.3x57
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Re: CZ550/VZ24 Extractor CRF: Oh Really? [Re: Ripp]
#114051 - 09/09/08 10:39 PM

Quote:

Apparently your gunsmithing skills know no bounds....

It is unfortunate they just can't do that correctly the first time right at the factory...

Oh, yeah, just call me Mr Rigby...

One more thing. My gunsmith told me it is common to remove that triangular portion of the lower claw when bevelling for snap-over. Why CZ would remove that portion but not go whole hog on every extractor to ensure snap-over is beyond me.

This whole issue has been a real eye-opener to me and I'm thinking it finalizes my feeling that the best overall action type I've ever used is the SAKO AIII/AV, with pushfeed and controlled ejection.

Having said that, certainly there are many Mausers that function 100% CRF, and there is nothing wrong with that! As a matter of fact, my son's FN .270 and 1903A3 Springfield are absolutely dead-reliable CRF, and I cannot get them to miss a shell loaded from the mag. Pointed straight down and jiggling the bolt back and forth and feeding slowly, an extreme test, nevertheless results in a totally controlled round as the shell pops up out of the mag and under the extractor every time.

This project has also exposed the importance of the magazine in Mauser CRF, and truth be told, it could be the attempt to make mags semi-universal that is causing most of the mayhem, not the extractor claw per se. IIRC, per Speed, Original Mausers had specific mag box and feed lips engineered to every cartridge. Most if not all susequent commercial mass producers do not. Just exactly when and how the case leaves the mag makes a big difference in the extractor's ability to grab it correctly.

No wonder many of the mass producers dumped the Mauser claw and went to variations of push feed...

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (09/09/08 11:58 PM)

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9.3x57
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Re: CZ550/VZ24 Extractor CRF: Oh Really? [Re: 9.3x57]
#114111 - 10/09/08 01:05 PM

OK, I just got another 98 extractor to play with.

This one only required just a few minutes to fit, and it works great.

Far better control over the cases than the factory extractor.

And, it was a cinch to get the extractor to snap over. Leaning the thing on the buffing wheel seems to be the brainless {thus, perfect for me...} way to make short work of adding the snap-over feature. I did no filing or grinding of the claw at all on this one except a bit of filing with a rat tail file to open up the bottom to allow cases to rise up underneath it more easily.

This has been a fun "project".

I might add, that this extractor required a bit of metal removed and buffed from the top of the where it smacked into the receiver ring, and the "Vee" cut under the claw needed to be thinned just a bit.

If I ever buy one of these CZ550's in 9.3x62 I do believe the first thing I'll do is replace the extractor with a standard 98.

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Paul
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Re: CZ550/VZ24 Extractor CRF: Oh Really? [Re: 9.3x57]
#114114 - 10/09/08 02:00 PM

Yes, I like the Sako, too. I've used an L61 (which has AIII on it at least) almost exclusively for about 28 years. It works so well that I've long wondered what the big deal was about controlled feed. Our ' 98 Mausers have been good, too, but knowing I might be in trouble if I bumped the cartridge ahead of the extractor would worry me if hunting DG.

In regard to magazines, there's a lot be said for only rebarrelling to calibres with a similar case body to the original one.

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9.3x57
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Re: CZ550/VZ24 Extractor CRF: Oh Really? [Re: Paul]
#114165 - 11/09/08 09:41 AM

UPDATE:

One more change to the ole CZ just might have it finally and solidly a decent gun...

The magazine spring the CZ folks had in it could have held me up off the floor if I stood on it. I've always wondered why it was so strong, when my 98's and 96's have been fairly light.

The 98's and 96's are so easy to load, seems like a guy can stand back and toss a handfull of rounds at the gun and they just find their way into the mag.

Not so the CZ. It is a real pain in the keester.

What's more, the overlystrong mag spring caused the rounds to POP out of the mag when the bolt was worked, and the mag spring applied excessive upward pressure to the bolt, causing the extractor to bind in the receiver ring, making this thing the least smooth action I have ever worked, Mosin-Nagants included.

Solution?

Well, I had a spare 98 mag spring lying about, switched out the two and voila, not only is the action 100%+ smoother working, but the CRF functioning is also significantly improved. The lighter mag spring allows the cases to rise up under the extractor instead of popping out in front of it. Feeds from the left are not as positive as from the right side of the mag, but overall the action isn't just OK, it is really nice.

So, finally, I have a gun I like.

Extractor now replaced with a 98, mag spring replaced with a 98.

Anybody seeing the trend?

Like they say, nearly every divergence from the 98 leads to less performance, not more...

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Ripp
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Re: CZ550/VZ24 Extractor CRF: Oh Really? [Re: 9.3x57]
#114207 - 11/09/08 10:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Apparently your gunsmithing skills know no bounds....

It is unfortunate they just can't do that correctly the first time right at the factory...

Oh, yeah, just call me Mr Rigby...

No wonder many of the mass producers dumped the Mauser claw and went to variations of push feed...

Me thinks you hit the nail on the head right there---with the cost of manufacturing, labor costs involved, etc..it is just cheaper to do it half-hazardly...or not at all as we witnessed in Winchesters dumb move in 1964....

No doubt the CRF action is preferable in DG hunting...BUT, one better check it out completely before thinking all is well...IMHO....

Ripp

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9.3x57
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Re: CZ550/VZ24 Extractor CRF: Oh Really? [Re: Ripp]
#114246 - 12/09/08 10:43 AM

RIPP:

I read the article in RIFLE.

I like Barsness in-general, but the piece is one of the type...

Repeated, well-worn saws without much attention to the details. Nothing in it that couldn't be got from the webpage catalogues on the various rifles.

But then, would Scovill publish a piece demonstrating that supposed CRF rifles weren't?

Actually, I believe he would.

For myself, not being a gunsmith or gun maker, I never really had a feel for the required relationship between the magazine and the extractor in feeding a Mauser until now. I have a fair amount of experience with automatic pistol feed issues; BHP's, 1911's, STAR's, SIG's, Rugers, Lugers, etc, and while it is a well-known basic that Luger jams are very frequently caused by poor magazine spring power and/or relationship between mag spring and mainspring, I really didn't understand the need to balance a Mauser mag spring with the feed lip angles and extractor fit until I waded into this CZ.

Too bad Barsness couldn't be troubled with actually writing an interesting piece and rather liked the option of scanning catalogues and regurgitating theory instead instead of giving us something interesting. That whole piece had to be off the top of his head. Or maybe off the top of Somebody-Who-Didn't-Know-Much-About-Guns's head.

Honestly, I think Scovill might have prefered a good article over the blah-blah-blah that he got.

Unfortunately, I actually bought the magazine. Money better spent on a six-pack of Obsidian Stout. I won't make that mistake next time.

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chuck375
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Re: CZ550/VZ24 Extractor CRF: Oh Really? [Re: 9.3x57]
#115896 - 30/09/08 10:45 AM

I have no problem with my CZ 550 in 375 H&H feeding. Mine is of recent vintage and has the non-detachable magazine. It's not a push feed (like my Rem 700) so it wants to be fed from the magazine. Mine feeds flawlessly both during rapid fire where I'm cycling the action hard and fast, and normal operation. I believe it is a true CRF rifle. It's not a pre-64 Model 70 and if that's what you want, nothing else will do. It is a true magnum length mauser-variant action machined from forged steel (not investment cast), a nice trigger and accurate out of the box. It's pretty hard to argue with that in Safari calibers for under $1000.

Chuck

--------------------
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Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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9.3x57
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Re: CZ550/VZ24 Extractor CRF: Oh Really? [Re: chuck375]
#115898 - 30/09/08 11:03 AM

Quote:

I have no problem with my CZ 550 in 375 H&H feeding. Mine is of recent vintage and has the non-detachable magazine. It's not a push feed (like my Rem 700) so it wants to be fed from the magazine. Mine feeds flawlessly both during rapid fire where I'm cycling the action hard and fast, and normal operation. I believe it is a true CRF rifle. It's not a pre-64 Model 70 and if that's what you want, nothing else will do. It is a true magnum length mauser-variant action machined from forged steel (not investment cast), a nice trigger and accurate out of the box. It's pretty hard to argue with that in Safari calibers for under $1000.

Chuck

Any of them seem CRF if the bolt is worked fast.

As for CRF, try this:

Point the rifle at the ground. That is, stand the butt up, muzzle down.

S-L-O-W-L-Y work the bolt and feed a round from the magazine as you juggle the gun a bit.

Repeat a few times.

Does the round jump ahead of the extractor?

In other words, TRY to make the round jump ahead of the extractor, the way you would if you suspected it wasn't and you wanted to make dead sure it was what it is supposed to be because your life depended on it.

Most of my Rugers will pick up a round 100% doing this weird test. My 96 and FN 98 will fail occaisionally time-to-time. My CZ with stock extractor will fail all the time. With my home-hand-fitted 98 case-puller and replaced magazine spring, it is as good as the FN 98.

With the larger cases; .375 and .416 for example, they are supposed to be true CRF. An honest review of yours would be helpful. I do not have a Big Bore CZ to test.

Chuck: Also, will your CZ bolt close over a round dropped by hand into the chamber?

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (30/09/08 11:11 AM)

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9.3x57
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Re: CZ550/VZ24 Extractor CRF: Oh Really? [Re: 9.3x57]
#115899 - 30/09/08 11:08 AM

.

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bigmaxx
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Re: CZ550/VZ24 Extractor CRF: Oh Really? [Re: 9.3x57]
#115966 - 30/09/08 10:38 PM

I have a newer M77 in .458 lott and a Hawkeye African and both pick the round off the magazine and hold it firmly. However, it will close over a round dropped into the barrel. Works very well for me.

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9.3x57
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Re: CZ550/VZ24 Extractor CRF: Oh Really? [Re: bigmaxx]
#115972 - 30/09/08 11:00 PM

Quote:

I have a newer M77 in .458 lott and a Hawkeye African and both pick the round off the magazine and hold it firmly. However, it will close over a round dropped into the barrel. Works very well for me.

Max: Have you tried the muzzle-down-SLOW-feed-gun-jiggling test? Just curious about all these things...

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bigmaxx
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Re: CZ550/VZ24 Extractor CRF: Oh Really? [Re: 9.3x57]
#116011 - 01/10/08 12:07 PM

I just tried it with both rifles. Both picked up the round and held it while being jiggled and shaken vigorously. Both will close on a round dropped into the chamber as well. Hope that helps.

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4seventy
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Re: CZ550/VZ24 Extractor CRF: Oh Really? [Re: 9.3x57]
#116040 - 01/10/08 06:56 PM

9Three,
I think your muzzle down test is a good one to find out if the action does truely provide CRF.
I do think that something else needs to be checked during that type of test though, and that is to try it with a cartridge feed from both sides of the magazine.

I tried the test with one of my favourite hard work rifles, an old BSA featherweight, and it passed with flying colours, and also it never has any problem regarding closing the bolt on a chambered round.

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9.3x57
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Re: CZ550/VZ24 Extractor CRF: Oh Really? [Re: 4seventy]
#116059 - 01/10/08 10:48 PM

Quote:

cartridge feed from both sides of the magazine.

Sorry, I assumed all were trying it with a whole magazineful.

Mag spring tensions seems to effect rim slip under the extractor, too. Some guns may feed some rounds better than others depending on which side of the mag box they are feeding from and depending on where they sit in the stack.

Interesting to me that the "poorest-made" gun, my sons' 03A3 Springfield, with its crude finishing and obvious mass-production external QC, is the most dead reliable gun we have. It is absolutely positve, with a click as the rounds slip under the extractor and no amount of shaking, jiggling or herky-jerky bolt operation can prevent a solid feed.

I've been trying lots of guns with this test lately and there aren't many I can't make hick-up. I've gotten good at making a Mauser jam.

But that rascally Springfield just defies my efforts!!

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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chuck375
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Re: CZ550/VZ24 Extractor CRF: Oh Really? [Re: 9.3x57]
#116276 - 05/10/08 08:36 AM

Hey 9Threefifty, I tried what you said:

1) I tried this 10 times with a full magazine doing it for each round:

Point the rifle at the ground. That is, stand the butt up, muzzle down.

S-L-O-W-L-Y work the bolt and feed a round from the magazine as you juggle the gun a bit.

Repeat a few times.

It fed flawlessly, my rifle has been worked over by both the CZ custom shop and AHR though ... I don't claim all the CZ 550 big bores will do this.

2) My gun will close over a round fed directly in the chamber. I tried it 10 times both by pushing the round in the chamber with my fingers and then closing the bolt over it, as well as just laying the round part of the way in and just on top of the magazine but not clicking it in. In all cases it fed. In all cases it did not close over the bolt as smoothly as when fed from the magazine. On my Rem 700 270 I routinely feed cartridges into the chamber by hand and neck size only. For the 375 H&H I intent to only feed from the magazine. If 5 shots won't do it I need to learn how to shoot ...

Chuck

--------------------
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Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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9.3x57
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Re: CZ550/VZ24 Extractor CRF: Oh Really? [Re: chuck375]
#116326 - 06/10/08 02:22 AM

Thanks Chuck:

Update:

I replaced the follower in my CZ with a modified one made from a Swede 96 follower. It had a noticeably positive effect on feeding because it has a central rib that extends farther forward than does the rib on the CZ follower.

Unfortunately it is too narrow and can twist in the mag box and jam, so I removed it.

Regardless, I am seeing pretty clearly now why the CZ550 cannot be trully said to be a "CRF" action when chambered in the smaller calibers.

I wonder tho, about the "longer, smaller" calibers. For example, my gun is 6.5x55. I wonder if the .30-06 and 9.3x62 or .270's are better at controlling feed, as they might leave the box at a slightly different time, preventing the jump of the cartridge that occaisionally allows it to pop in front of the extractor.

All-in-all, tho, I am not 100% impressed with the CZ action, at least as it involves my rifle and some others noted. From what is reported here, with the bigger calibers on the H&H or .416 or .505 cases it appears to be much more reliable.

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chuck375
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Re: CZ550/VZ24 Extractor CRF: Oh Really? [Re: 9.3x57]
#116327 - 06/10/08 03:11 AM

I almost bought a Remington 700 375 H&H used from their custom shop (which was a beautiful gun and I like Remington 700s) for $1000. The reasons I bought my CZ Safari Classic instead were in order:

1. Controlled Round Feed. I read a long detailed post from Ganyana about the Zimbabwe professional hunter's test and how the rifle's fared there. CZs due to both their cost and their reliablity were by far the most popular. Many other rifles, Winchesters, Remingtons, Weatherby's and Rugers didn't fare as well. In this test rapid, accurate multiple shot strings have to be fired.

2. It has a magnum mauser-variant action. In case I ever want to rebarrel to something really big (505 Gibbs, 500 A-Square) I can.

3. Cost. I have many custom touches on my rifle (all functional) and still am about the same price as an out of the box Ruger RSM.

I'm very happy with my rifle. I wouldn't trade it for a pre-64 Winchester (I know that puts me on the lunatic fringe) or a non-magnum 98 Mauser action. I can't afford a magnum Mauser 98 based rifle so that puts it out of range for me.

Regards,
Chuck

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Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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4seventy
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Re: CZ550 Controlled Feed: Oh Really? [Re: 9.3x57]
#128027 - 25/02/09 05:28 PM

Quote:

I spoke to Ruger, and 4seventy has the thing about nailed.

From release in '89 till a changeover occuring in '92-'93, the MKII's were NOT CRF. From there on, they were.

I think the CRF Mk11 was released earlier than '92-'93, or at least in Oz anyway.
I've just been going over some old hunting productions of mine and came across the very first video that I put on the market.
One of the client hunters is featured on this tape using the stainless synthetic Ruger Mk11 with CRF that I mentioned earlier in this thread.
The copyright date on that tape is 1990, so they were definately available (in Oz) with CRF by late that year.

I cannot recall what year the first Mk11 (non CRF) was released but thought that it was maybe a year or so earlier than '89.
Does anyone know what year the Mk11 first appeared in the Gun Digest listing?

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9.3x57
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Re: CZ550 Controlled Feed: Oh Really? [Re: 4seventy]
#128049 - 26/02/09 12:46 AM

470,

I don't believe release in Oz is significant in that the question I asked Ruger was when they were first made. They said '92-'93.

Are you sure the gun in your production was actually a CRF? The actions look the same and so does the extractor at least from the side. Could it be that people were referring to the gun as CRF just because it had a claw extractor & Win 70-type ejector when in fact the action did not actually control feed? Just wondering.

On the other side of it, production changes in gun manufacturing are notoriously sketchy in precise date. True to just about every gun I am aware of. Try to track down the precise date of a technical change in S&W handguns, or military Mausers, or whatever and it becomes obvious general estimates are about as good as can be had. So maybe you are right about the early CRF. Who knows. Personally, I thought Ruger's answer seemed a bit too recent and thought one of the whole sales shtick reasons for the change to MKII was CRF. I do not remember all the sales info/claims, but thought that was one, at least early on if not immediate to its intro.

A post on the Ruger forum might clear it up.

PS: Just so folks know I don't hold a grudge, I REALLY like my "rebuilt" CZ550, chop-stock 9,3 that started this post. I've got all the bugs worked out and it is really a peach to carry and shoot. The GI Mauser 98 extractor I used to replace the original has continued to give 100% CRF and all the effort was worthwhile. Won't willingly sell this one!

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4seventy
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Re: CZ550 Controlled Feed: Oh Really? [Re: 9.3x57]
#128086 - 26/02/09 08:41 AM

Quote:

Are you sure the gun in your production was actually a CRF? The actions look the same and so does the extractor at least from the side. Could it be that people were referring to the gun as CRF just because it had a claw extractor & Win 70-type ejector when in fact the action did not actually control feed? Just wondering.

9Three,
Yeah, I'm certain that it was definately controlled feed.
I'd handled quite a few of the original push feed Mk11's which clients were using.
At that time, there were rumours that the Mk11 was coming soon with CRF, and I had also been told this by the gunsmith doing warranty repairs for Ruger here in Oz, but it wasn't supposed to happen for a while.
One of my regular hunter clients came out with a brand spanking Mk11 stainless in .308 and I never paid any attention to it for the first couple of days.
For some reason I ended up having a close look at it and when I saw the bolt face I had to take a step backwards and have another look.
It was definately CRF, and I double checked by cycling all the rounds out of the mag by just working the bolt back and forth.
I'd been around '98 mausers, pre '64 Winchesters, Brno ZG's and 600's and other CRF actions for quite a while back then, and was fully aware of what CRF actually meant and how it operated.
I remember thinking that I should film or photograph the bolt face to verify that I had actually handled a Mk11 with CRF. I cannot remember whether I got around to it though.
If I get time I'll have a look on the camera tapes from that era.

I would still be interested to know when the first Mk11 stainless rifles appeared in Gun Digest.

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Marrakai
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Re: CZ550 Controlled Feed: Oh Really? [Re: 4seventy]
#128170 - 26/02/09 11:50 PM

4seventy:
Left field, sorry, but one of my mates has an early Ruger push-feed .300 Win Mag that had the bolt-face modified for controlled-feed, before he bought it second-hand.

Don't know any more details than that, I'm afraid. I was there in the gun-shop when he bought it, and he still owns that rifle so I could find out more next time I see him?

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AFRO408
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Re: CZ550 Controlled Feed: Oh Really? [Re: Marrakai]
#128277 - 27/02/09 06:37 PM

Hi fellas,
I always make sure that, on any mauser rifle , the bolt will close on a chambered round whether the rifle is designed to be controlled feed or not. Most ex mil actions have been modified but I have found some have not. You can't rely on the CRF to work every time and the time when it doesn't work is when you need it most especially on a Dangerous Game rifle. In a dicy situation, when you have emptied the mag and haven't put the animal down, you need to be able to chuck a loose round in there and slam the bolt home whithout having it jam on you. IHMO.
Cheers.

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9.3x57
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Re: CZ550 Controlled Feed: Oh Really? [Re: AFRO408]
#128292 - 28/02/09 12:59 AM

408:

I agree with your assessment 100%. Even forgetting the DG issue, I want to be able to drop a round in the chamber, tho in practice I normally just jam rounds in the mag. Truth is, even for those who feed from mag only, as you say, inadvertently dropping a round into the chamber frequently leaves the round stuck in the chamber.

.470:

I have Gun Digest '87, '90, '91 and '93.

'87; no mention of MKII.

'90; MKII & M77 rifles listed. No mention of Controlled Feed in the features list of MKII guns that includes "New trigger and three-position safety". Regarding MKII, says "Introduced 1989".

'91; Ditto.

'93; Maybe here is the source of the confusion... "Controlled Feed" listed for the MKII Magnum rifle only. I wonder if CF was introduced first to the Magnum action line and then to the standard action lengths later? So maybe Ruger and you are both correct. Intro'd in '92/'93 "era" but first in the Mag action, later {when???} in standard length actions.

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