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Tatume
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Ben]
      #115273 - 23/09/08 09:54 PM

You should try this yourself. Many people have claimed that slow twist barrels will not stabilize conicals, but the conjecture does not coincide with my experience.

Take care, Tom


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Dphariss
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Ben]
      #115738 - 28/09/08 02:33 PM

Quote:

Thanks, fellows. Another question: Can bullets be used in the Pedersoli .72? Or is it only ball? Cheers, Ben




In actual practice a RB will probably work better than a conical. Safer too.
This based on the writings of people like Baker and Forsythe.

Dan


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Yogi000
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Dphariss]
      #120277 - 04/12/08 06:07 AM

I second the emotion to stick with Round Balls. The recoil with those heavy conicals will also be considerable. Plus you probably gain nothing.

Places like Ballistic Products sells .715 lead round balls. I know you want "hardened" but this will get you shooting and give you some accuracy indicators.

Buffalo balls = hardened round balls!


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szihn
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Yogi000]
      #120307 - 04/12/08 03:26 PM

I agree. Hard balls is the answer. 10 pounds of Wheel Weights with an additional table spoon of Hornady High Antimony shot added. Drop them in water out of the mold.
Hard ---------- and they don't break up on impact.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: szihn]
      #120363 - 05/12/08 07:12 AM

Tom, in my humble opinion (sometimes not so humble) the use of short conicals (short would be necessary) in the Pedersoli 12 bore will gain you nothing for use against dangerous game unless they are hardened and as hard, they will not obturate into the rifling. Accuracy will be poor and fouing excessive.

Stick with round balls. With proper testing, you will arrive at a WW alloy ball and patch combination that will shoot accurately and possess all the power your rifle will provide. I agree with hard balls, but stop at WW. They will not break up and will go through a lot of bone without deforming - harder than that, I don't think you'll need. You could even cut them almost 1/2 and 1/2 with pure lead. They will still harden further if quenched in cool water and left to sit for 24 hours. These hardened WW and WW alloy balls retain some maleable traits and do not get brittle as hard alloys like Antimony do.

A quote from Samuel Baker is appropriate here: "That 4 1/2 drams (123gr.) will drive a ball of that size through both sides of an elephant's head, and 4 1/2 or even 5 drams (136gr.) may be used in such a rifle without any very unpleasant recoil and without any bad effect on the accuracy of the ball, but the reverse."

He was speaking of a 14 bore rifle (.69cal.), shallow rifling and 1/4 turn of twist in the length of the bore.(26" barrel, 104" twist) We know of other people with that same double Pedersoli you have, using up to 175gr.(6.4drams) of powder safely used. You will have to target this rifle to see what load the barrels shoot together with.

My own 14 bore single rifle with a load of 6.1 drams(165gr.) and a WW alloy ball smashed both shoulders of a large bull moose. In contrast, my 9.3x57, with a 270gr. bullet at 2,300fps smashed one shoulder of a moose this last fall and only a small fragment of the bullet made it into the lung cavity. Had the moose been a full grown bull like the first one instead of a 350 pound calf, I'd have had a bit of tracking to do.

Do not think of the round ball as a poor penetrator - it isn't, especially in such large sizes. Hardened, they're tremendous penetrators.

Is it enough for Cape Buffalo - yes, I most hearedly think so - accuracy will be the most important variable - that's up to you and your pre-hunt practise and load development.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (05/12/08 07:20 AM)


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Yogi000
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Ben]
      #120364 - 05/12/08 07:13 AM

At only 10.5 pounds and the way that Pedersoli is designed (for black powder ball) I just would not use heavier and longer conical projectiles, i.e. bullets. The recoil might kill ya.

You have plenty of power and penetration capability if you use hardened round balls in .715 caliber.

If you take the advice given here and load those round balls up to 5-7 drams you will achieve two things.

1) Achieve deadly killing capability
2) max out on the recoil you can withstand


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Kaimiloa
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Ben]
      #129472 - 14/03/09 02:18 AM

At 1:86 twist with shallow (.004) rifling, the Pedersoli 72 caliber rifle is approaching a "Forsyth"-rifled barrel as Steve Z has said above. But with a short slug for 12 ga. barrels I think you will be surprised and it will shoot with that 1:86 twist. However, I also agree that the usage of a HARDENED round ball for dangerous game is well proven from the past, and it is the momentum of the big ball coupled with lack of deformation that lets you possibly get after buffalo with such a gun. Think about it, you certainly don't need to expand a projectile that is already nearly .72 D to create a good wound channel! Anything over about .45 is going to do that without expanding, with the desired penetration then depending on velocity, mass, and maintenance of projectile shape.

While an awful lot of game, some quite large, has been taken in N. Am. with MLs of 50 and 54 bore, we are wise to consider that English and European folks with WAY more experience shooting game than we will ever have considered these DEER calibers. Pumping today's American MLs up to high velocity to get more oomph creates brutal recoil using these light guns. And remember how much trouble the Lewis and Clarke party had on perhaps 6-800 pound grizzlies using similar calibers? I don't mean to offend, and use them too, but a .50 or .54 RB with typical American charges gets marginal just for elk and large deer out past 75 yds., tho the .54 is certainly superior. If all game allowed us standing broadside shots it would be different! See the Lyman Black Powder handbook for a myriad of tested loads and some eye-opening data.

The English did not take 12-bore (.729) MLs to Africa and India for no reason, and for dangerous game the 8-bore, or larger, was favored. Yes, the "smaller" 14 and 16 bores were great in India BUT this was with shallow, slow-twist "Forsyth" rifling as above, and heavy charges of powder. Forsyth rifling is about 1:95 to 1:120 twist. Smaller hardened ball but HIGH velocity got the job done and with superior trajectory. See Lt. Forsyth's wonderful small book from 1862, "The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles".

Nonetheless, a water buffalo is very big animal. American ML shooters in particular have been bred on the "low charge - save powder" principle, and many think 100 gr. is a heavy load. Obsession with light weight guns and inexperience with heavy recoil makes this tendency even worse. Please heed Steve's words above about a HEAVY charge if using a 12-bore, and keep your range short for both aiming and penetration reasons (60 yds. or less IMHO). If recoil is brutal, you can make hollows in the rear of the buttstock and insert bags of lead shot or a lead plug. And you can increase the size of the buttplate if necessary, or add gun or shoulder pad. Yep, have that guide with a .470 nitro backing you up!

Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #129478 - 14/03/09 03:37 AM

REAL lead/antimony/.05% arsnic WW alone are all that's needed. ure lead stickon-s are garbage and will soften the melt. New, modern Zinc WW are garbage and will destroy the pot of lead for casting good bullets or balls. Avoid putting tin (or very much more than 1/4" of stick) in the melt as it will soften the final ball, both as-cast and if hardened. Tin causes age softening at a greater rate than straight antimony alloys. Adding more antimony will increase the hardness of as-cast balls, but also increases brittleness. Adding shot which contains additional arsnic is not necessary - the arsnic in WW is enough to cause the hardening spoken about below. Arsnic is necessary for hardening lead alloys. Hard balls can be made with alloys of lead & tin, but must be about 10:1, lead/tin mix. Adding more tin than 10% does not further harden the ball much, but will make it considerably lighter, which is bad.

If desired, WW balls can be further hardened by being dropped right from a very hot mould into water. I use a 5 gallon can, with a strip of sheet banded to the top & slit in the middle to stop splashes coming out. You do NOT want water/moisture to EVER enter a molten pot of lead.

I cast at about 800F to get completely frosted bullets or balls. It must take at least 5 or 6 seconds for the sprue to cool. The can is behind me so I turn around and wait for the sprue to harden, open the sprue cutter with a golved hand, then dropping the ball into the bucket(held close to the covering cloth, tapping the hinge nut if necessary to get a quick release. The hotter the ball is when it hits the water, the harder it will become in 12 hours. It takes that time to harden after being removed from the bucket. Tap water is just fine. Have a towel in the bottom of the can to cushion the fall of the balls.

With this method, you can achieve consistant results with brinels hardness of about 28 through about 32. These are harder than Linotype (brinel 21 to 22) but aren't brittlelike Lino is and at muzzleloading velocities will resist both expansion and/or breaking up.

If you want to remove spures by filing, do it right after casting and you won't hurt the hardening process. If you wait 12 hours, any rasping of the ball will soften it at that location. Spruless balls are easier and faster to load. With no sprue, just grab a ball and load it - or if it turns in a loading block - if doesn't matter. This, of course is for moulds that produce a raised sprue. Some don't. I don't use those moulds for large balls ( bore guns) that don't have raised sprues. I like Jeff Tanner's moulds as you have to trim their sprues and the can be made perfectly round.

Hardening balls should not be necessary for any game to be met in the forest or savana for that matter. Straight WW should be enough. If the WW you are using are soft (some US made weights are softer than ours) or you get pure lead in the mix, then hardening by quenching in water will help as detailed above.

Re: use of slugs in a Muzzleloading double rifle. I should have mentioned above that the use of slugs in a 12 bore Pedersoli with heavy charges for dangerous game, is a dnagerous practise. Recoil of the first barrel can cause the second barrel's conical "slug" to migrate forward due to recoil forces, especially with clean clean barrels. It can also happen with dirty barrels. Any movement off the charge by the bullet creates an air space between powder and slug. The resulting explosion on firing the 'gapped' charge, while sometimes quite incredible to witness, is usually very hard on the shooter and rifle - the shooter can be damaged beyond repair - the rifle always is - stick with round balls.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Sarg
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: DarylS]
      #129513 - 14/03/09 08:44 AM

While I'm just leaning with my 12Bore cartridge rifle , with the help of alot of you here !
I see someone has shot a Cape Buff with said .72 (pic here I hope) unfortunately I have no details
on the hunt or load !



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Dphariss
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Tatume]
      #129631 - 15/03/09 03:24 PM

It is impossible to shoot hardened conicals in traditional hunting arms with any accuracy.
The soft conical will not penetrate as well as a hardened RB. They also tend to veer off track when striking the animal. RBs generally do not.
This is why hardened RBs were used "back in the day" rather than conicals for the larger dangerous game. Lions and such did not need that much penetration.
The conical was tried in the 19th century and found to be unsatisfactory on several counts. The hardened RB was generally used for dangerous game until the advent of the BL guns that COULD use hardened conicals. Then the calibers were also reduced.
With good shot placement and an adequate charge of powder 6-7 drams of FFG it should work OK with a hard RB.
Pondoro Taylor was killing African Elephant and Rhino with a 10 bore using RBs in the 1930s when his ammo shipment was misdirected or lost. If a 10 bore with 6 drams and a hard ball will kill elephant I cannot see a 72 failing on Buffalo.
Its in his book "Pondoro" by John Taylor.

Dan


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Kaimiloa
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Dphariss]
      #130080 - 20/03/09 11:31 AM

Great post on hardening balls and bullets, Daryl. Knew a good bit of it but learned more from your clear synopsis. I've copied it for my files and am sure others did too.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #130131 - 21/03/09 03:03 AM

Thankyou, Ka'imiloa - appreciated. If you go to Veral Smith's site - Lead Bullet Technology and order his little book(cheap), you'll have the greatest written data on this subject. The book is called "Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets" -- it is an excellent read and packed with important information, photo stats and techniques - soft point cast bullets, etc. I got mine back in about 1978 or '77 and have been using these techniques ever since. Shooting through 3' to 4' diameter, solid Spruce trees (and other stuff) is a blast with an 1874 Sharps buffalo rifle. Just one of the tricks of the trade.

Oh yeah - I meant to say that buffalo sure bled a lot from the hip shot. Makes me wonder who killed the buff, where it was shot to kill it and with what.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (21/03/09 03:05 AM)


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Dphariss
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: DarylS]
      #130195 - 22/03/09 03:05 AM

Dropping WW from the mould into water works well. I use this for 44 mag bullets.

Dan


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Kaimiloa
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: DarylS]
      #130535 - 26/03/09 03:57 PM

Thanks for the tip on Veral Smith's "Jacketed Performance With Cast Bullets", Daryl. I have had it for several years and can certainly second your opinion on its high worth. Heard its praise from Seyfried, no slouch with words, who said nary a word about Veral's charmingly loose application of English. It is a real tribute to the quality of Veral's keen observations and experimentation that despite the plainness of the book it is quite famous.
I've spent a good bit of time stuffing soft lead bullets down MLs, and wish I had more experience playing with alloyed bullets. As Veral explains, you can do all sorts of things with them once you understand obturation - and leading problems. Curious that more people, notably gun writers, don't use a long box filled with oiled hardwood sawdust to check out their alloyed bullets for proper obturation, etc.. Always thought I would build one of those if I got into alloyed bullets much.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.


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beleg2
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #130548 - 26/03/09 10:32 PM

I have Verals book.
do you read:"NEW 2000 BEARTOOTH BULLET TECHNICAL GUIDE"?
looks interesting, It may have some new information.
http://beartoothbullets.com/images/table_of_contents.jpg

Thanks
Martin

Edited by beleg2 (27/03/09 06:37 AM)


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: beleg2]
      #130569 - 27/03/09 02:29 AM

Martin - if you remove the 's' from https, the link will work.

Looks like a comprehensive book - might have to get it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Kaimiloa
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: beleg2]
      #130724 - 29/03/09 04:31 AM

Martin,
I thought I'd check out the Bear Tooth Bullet link you gave and the next thing I knew it was three or four hours later and I was a new member of the Shooters Forum there. Never even got to the Technical Guide.

What a site, with all sorts of articles, data, large forum, etc.. You really got me into something, and my printer has already been put to work several times at the site.

Thanks (I think!), Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.


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beleg2
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #130805 - 30/03/09 01:10 AM

Kaimiloa,
Your wellcome.
Hope it helps.
Martin

Edited by beleg2 (30/03/09 01:17 AM)


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tarawa
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: beleg2]
      #134461 - 05/05/09 12:55 AM

I have been reading a lot about the Kodiak Doubles on a South African Black Powder site. Those boys are loading and shooting all sorts of bullets, slugs, sabots and round balls with much success.
I believe the picture of the Cape Buffalo above came from the site.

www.whitesmoke.co.za

--------------------
Life is for Service

Edited by tarawa (05/05/09 12:57 AM)


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Could the Pedersoli .72 double be successful on buffalo? [Re: tarawa]
      #134471 - 05/05/09 02:37 AM

"I had Minnie bullet moulds made for my rifles; but so long as the spherical bullets go through and through large game, I do not see the use of runing the risk of shaking the stock of the gun, and of the extra recoil, by using the heavier balls." Major Shapkespear, the author of Wild Sports in India

In reference to the previous sentence about a 14 bore ball gun's use on animals of the forest, "Mr. Baker has stated, that 4 1/2 drachms (drams) will drive a ball of that size through both sides of an elephant's head, and 4 1/2 or even 5 drachms (drams) may be used in such a rifle without any very unpleasant recoil, and without any bad effect on the accuracy of the ball, but the reverse." Lt. James Forsyth, The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles

Note that was a 14 bore rifle using a 15 bore ball, not a 12 bore using a 13 bore ball. The larger the ball, the greater the shock and penetration, alloys being identical. Yes, Indian Elephants are smaller than the African variety -but impressive, it still is. I use almost a 15 1/2 sized ball in my 14 bore rifle with 6 drams on moose and bear - dose a 'smashing' job.

Forsyth says in his book of 1862 - "Mr S.W.Baker, author of The Rifle and the Hound in Ceylon unsurpassed in experience with very heavy game, writes as follows in the Field of march 23rd 1861: - I strongly vote against conical balls for dangerous game; they make too neat a wound, and are very apt to glance on striking a bone. The larger the surface struck the greater will be the benumbing effect of the blow...In giving an opinion against concial balls for dangerous game, I do so from practical proofs of their inferiority. I had at one time a two-groove single rifle, weighing 21 lbs., carrying a 3 oz. belted ball (5 1/2 bore by weight - probably 6 or 6 1/2 bore size), with a charge of 12 drachms(drams - 328gr.)powder. This was kind of a "devil stopper," and never failed in flooring a charging elephant, although, if not struck in the brain, he might recover his legs. I had a conical mould made for this rifle, the ball (concial) of which weighed 4oz., but instead of rendering it more invincible, it entirely destroyed it's efficacy, and brought me into such scrapes that I at length gave up the concial ball as useless."

The brackets are mine.

With this information preserved and presented, from those with experience in what we are dwelving in today, must we go through those same learning steps ourselves, or can we learn from the past? Some can, some can't. Repeating history seems to be our forte` forte` .

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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