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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Sarg
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Hollis Cape Gun -303 X 12Ga " I need some advise "
      #111950 - 16/08/08 01:02 PM

Well I got my Hollis Cape Gun ,Top lever hammerless in 303 x 12Ga , I was hoping to make a set of 577 Light Nitro barrels for it as I thought it would be made on a double rifle action ?
Ok as it turn out the stock is badly broken ,also broke triger plate (badly repaired) the rifle side has a bushed firing pin , the 303 barrel is VERY worn ( bullets tumble ) I was hoping to see if the two barrels shot to the same sight setting -regulated -the 12Ga barrel shoots into a ragged whole at 25 yards , it,s a real cool gun ,well almost .
Now I was thinking of having the 303 barrel rebored to 9.3X74 or 375 Flanged , the barrels are heavy enough I think , what would most of you do out there ,remember it,s a English gun !
Any idea on cost of rebore and who might do it ?

Oh and any idea on stock work to keep the cost down ?

Thanks in advance !

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: Hollis Cape Gun -303 X 12Ga " I need some advise " [Re: Sarg]
      #111969 - 16/08/08 08:32 PM

Its hard to say without PHOTOS but the stock may be more of a problem than the bore cost wise. The first thing I would do is to measure how worn the bore is. This could be done crudely by seeing how far down the barrel a .311 or .312 bullet free falls down the barrel. If it falls only part way down the bore, then the cheapest option to try would be to lap the barrel and see if .323 bullets shoot any better ( assume from your description that the barrel has gone past trying .318s). There's a good description of this in the Spring 2008 Double Gun Journal. I may be wrong, but my gut tells me that reboring to .366 of .375 may be pushing it too far. You could also look into some of the flanged .358 cartridges if it really needs a rebore.... If the first step works with the .323 bullets, but you want more speed, you could think about improving the case along the lines of the .303 Epps design... As for stocks, you need to discuss this locally, but if you were in the UK, you'd have to be prepared to stick your hand in your wallet to the tune of at least £1000, more if you want better wood and finish.

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88MauSporter
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Reged: 06/06/07
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Re: Hollis Cape Gun -303 X 12Ga " I need some advise " [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #111982 - 17/08/08 05:45 AM

I have seen adds for re-rifling in Rifle magazine. I have had a .303 rebored and chamber for a .375 express. I have yet to work loads for it. I am using .303 brass expanded to to a straight taper case.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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Sarg
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Re: Hollis Cape Gun -303 X 12Ga " I need some advise " [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #112018 - 17/08/08 04:54 PM

Thanks for the ideas on bore size ! 303 (311) does not fall though barrell ,308 just about does (needs some light tapping )
I thought the rifle barrel would be buggered before I got it as most 303s have been shot with corrosive millarty ammo ! and had been going to rebore to 375 Flanged or 9.3X74 (which has same rim size)if the barrel was heavy enough (which this looks to be) also has same pitting in action face ! Is this a stop now throw away thing ? as i,m trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear ?











Edited by Sarg (17/08/08 06:14 PM)

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88MauSporter
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Reged: 06/06/07
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Re: Hollis Cape Gun -303 X 12Ga " I need some advise " [Re: Sarg]
      #112040 - 18/08/08 02:49 AM

Sounds like you are rejuvenating a fine old lady to me. I hope it all works out. The money really isn't the thing when it comes to a project like this. It is the result.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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Paul
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Reged: 28/08/07
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Re: Hollis Cape Gun -303 X 12Ga " I need some advise " [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #112078 - 18/08/08 05:53 PM

In regard to your stock, I hear there is a stockmaker near Ballarat in Victoria who has a machine that can copy the shape of old stocks - maybe this could reduce the price a little.

I don't know him and I'm not sure how to contact him but the name I think is

K. Wright Gunstocks (and his address might be)
1 Webbs Hill Road
Buninyong,
Vic.
Australia

I found a possible ph number in Telstra White Pages near there (with country code): 61 3 5341 8148.

Good luck
- Paul

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Nakihunter
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Re: Hollis Cape Gun -303 X 12Ga " I need some advise " [Re: Paul]
      #112080 - 18/08/08 06:20 PM

I would suggest a couple of things

1. Try fire lapping the bore - roll .311 lead bullets in 80 & 120 grinding grit & reload with a gas check & fire at say 2000fps - 10 shots each. Then slug the bore & see if it is .312 or more. Then shoot normal bullets & see how it groups. This will not cost you much & could make it into a serviceable rifle if the pitting is not too deep & if the barrel crown is ok.
2. If this does not shoot well, then I would re-bore it to a 8X57R with .323 bore. I feel that .375 is too big for that barrel - I have a 9,5X57MS & the metal around the bore looks as thick as this. You are looking at 0.032 inch to be removed from the wall of the bore to make it 0.064 larger in diameter.

I would also have the crown re-ground before I try re-boring.

Good luck rifle.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Hollis Cape Gun -303 X 12Ga " I need some advise " [Re: Nakihunter]
      #112084 - 18/08/08 08:21 PM

I agree with Naki, except that if it were me I would do everything I could to avoid a re-bore/rechamber as this would then require a re-proof and IMHO would affect the value of the rifle. If .308 bulets require a light tap to go down the bore, then the first step would be to get the bore measured to see if there are high and low spots. If there are, then fire lapping may be the answer and then shooting with .312 bullets or whatever matches the bore measurements. I agree that recrowning would be a good idea. If there are considerable variations in the bore measurements, then more lapping may be needed to even this out (to a achieve a light taper from chamber to muzzle). However, if after this process the measurements suggest that a .318 or .323 bullet would be better, you need to consider the chamber neck dimensions to avoid excess pressure (you can't just load a .303 case with a .323 bullet if the chamber neck is too tight).
I'd get an expert to measure the bore first and decide where to go from there. Overall it looks a nice gun and a fun project!

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DarylS
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Re: Hollis Cape Gun -303 X 12Ga " I need some advise " [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #112095 - 19/08/08 02:00 AM

Nice gun Sarg. - Nakihunter has the scoop as I'd go. Firelapping first, then try a variety of bullets, even 220gr. .308's, as well as 150 through 215gr. .312's and possibly .313's and if these fail, only if absolutely necessary, a re-bore/re-cut to 8mm on the .303 case. the ballistics will be quite favourable, just slightly better than the original parent .303, but easy to duplicate .303 to regulate to the sigths. The muzzle is a bit slim for anything much bigger for my tastes, however the .303 case does very well right to .400 cal. I'd stick to 8mm. Might even have it bores to a .321" groove diameter just for shooting 200gr.+ cast bullets of .323" diameter. For me, a 240gr. Cast bullet in .323" at about 1,900fps to 2,000fps just sounds like fun.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
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Re: Hollis Cape Gun -303 X 12Ga " I need some advise " [Re: DarylS]
      #112107 - 19/08/08 10:17 AM

Sarg,
I wish that I had your problem. I'd dearly love to own that old girl and to make her shoot again. You've been given excellent advice here and I believe that fire lapping, re-crowning, a slight neck-ream if necessary, and larger diameter bullets, will have this grand old lady shooting very well. The stock is a very simple fix for anyone with a stock duplicator. Don't know how common they are in your part of the world though.

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88MauSporter
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Reged: 06/06/07
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Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Hollis Cape Gun -303 X 12Ga " I need some advise " [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #112109 - 19/08/08 01:46 PM

Ross Seyfried wrote of a .303 single shot that ended up using .323 bullets. It was just way oversize.
Back in 1971 in Alaska, a state trooper gave me an old 7.7 Japanese arisaka 99. The stock had been butchered back to a short forend. "sporter". Original sights, straight bolt, etc.
So, with a alot of work and a little bit of gun smithing, Fajan stock, Williams receiver sight and front ramp, blade, lots of polishing and cold blue, It was my "big" rifle. Factory Norma rounds shot like shotgun paterns and sometimes tumbled. So, slugged the bore. Not .311, not .312, not .315. No, it was .317+. I produced a lead lap on an old rod and brush, lapped it out some more. used a fired case and a drill and more lap on the neck of the case to open the neck of the chamber a bit. And, to my inexperienced self, I had an 8mm (.318) / 7.7. I purchased nice norma 200 grain .318 diameter "J" bore bullets. Worked loads from the 8mm Mauser data to about 2500 FPS. It shot nice sub=2 inch groups at 100 yards.
I proceeded to take my first bull moose that year with the rifle. OK, I was 18 years old. Didn't know this wasn't the right things to do, but it worked out great for me!!
Fell in love a few years later and sold it for date money. Don't have the rifle or the first wife. Boy, I wished I had kept the rifle!

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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Sarg
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Re: Hollis Cape Gun -303 X 12Ga " I need some advise " [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #112110 - 19/08/08 03:52 PM

Thank you guys for all the great ideas !
If I shot 318 cal bullets do I have to open the chamber neck ?
I shot her some more , 8 out of 10 shots tumbled with 174 & 180Grs
I was keen to rebore & rechamber to a larger Cal for a great alrounder
Shot gun barrels groups well but not to the rifle barrel (not regulated), and shot 4 Rabbits with 4 shots (with shot)
She handles well to not like my Bonehill hammer gun 450-577 Martini X 12Ga ,which has a great rifle barrel !
Because I have no idea what Cape guns are worth I didn,t want too much money tied up in her (need money for double rifle)
I now need to find a stock duplicater over here I suppose ?
Heres a photo of whole rifle & the barrels on ANOTHER cape gun , as you can see Capes have some VERY thin barrels on them !



The barrels on my rifle !



An example of a common Cape barrel





Oh ,what do you think on cutting her down a bit & getting her re regulated by a good smith ?

Edited by Sarg (21/08/08 06:42 AM)

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88MauSporter
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Re: Hollis Cape Gun -303 X 12Ga " I need some advise " [Re: Sarg]
      #112145 - 20/08/08 01:21 PM

Try Slugging the bore. See what diameter you need. IF it has rifling, some lapping can help the even suface of the barrel and sharp edges of any pits. Have you thought of CAST bullets?? If you have a bore that is .316 or more, you should be able to use .318 jacketed softs points, or a close and slightly over groove diameter cast. The chamber neck may limit your bullet diamter. You could look at opening the neck up a bit an still use .303 British cases and the large diameter bullet.
Or, go all the way and rechamber for 8X57R and still have some factory loads.
I don't think that cutting barrels will regulate. Only screw up the ballance of the gun. Load development and experimentation will bring it closer. Round balls in the Shot barrel. Different speeds and weights of the rifle bullet. Start with the rifle and see what shoots to the express sights. Then work the shot barrel.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Hollis Cape Gun -303 X 12Ga " I need some advise " [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #112160 - 20/08/08 09:13 PM

Depending on the measurements you may get away with thinning the case necks inside to fit the .318s without opening the neck or altering the chamber.

Silly question, but I assume you have tried 215 grain bullets....

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DarylS
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Re: Hollis Cape Gun -303 X 12Ga " I need some advise " [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #112179 - 21/08/08 02:28 AM

All correct and good answers to your question, Sarg. The only way to know is to measure, then you know for sure. Standard .303 brass can be thinned to about a .010" wall if using an outside neck turner. If is indeed well oversize, opening the chamber to 8x57R is the way I'd go. The muzzle shows a very thin rifle barrel wall.

I'd work at restoring it's inner surface (lapping or polishing as the 'need' may be) to allow descent shooting - cast or jacketed. A 215 to 220gr. cast bullet at up to 2,200fps will do as much as what the gun was designed for. There are excellent specialty mould makers, LBT comes to mind, as well as lube producers, LBT comes to mind. Last chart I saw, was $125.00 for a DC mould made to your specs.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Story
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Re: Hollis Cape Gun -303 X 12Ga " I need some advise " [Re: DarylS]
      #117393 - 22/10/08 05:35 AM

I've picked up 215 grain .311 bullets from Hawk, which is what those rifles were regulated to use.

http://www.hawkbullets.com/

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