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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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hoppdoc
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Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope??
      #110805 - 31/07/08 10:42 PM

I am looking at buying a rifle /scope for my 18 yr old son for long range beanfield shooting.

I am leaning toward a Savage Varmint FVSS in 270 WSM with 26" barrel at 9 pounds, synthetic bedded stock,accutrigger, etc, with a Swarovski AV 3-10x TDS scope.

The scope may end up cost 2x as much as the rifle.

May go with a 50% cheaper Zeiss Conquest instead--

Thoughts anyone??

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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93mouse
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #110806 - 31/07/08 10:56 PM

If you can afford it - go for it and don't look back, tho Zeiss would serve you as well. I would add a best mount there is available - but I guess you allready know that.

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John303
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #110807 - 31/07/08 10:59 PM

Nothing like good glass on a long range rifle, I've never even looked through a Sw or a Zeiss, the price kept me away. I have chaged my whole battery of rifles to Leupold, perhaps you should look into one of these there are many models available. I'm pleased with mine. --- John303.

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szihn
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: John303]
      #110812 - 31/07/08 11:39 PM

I have heard bad things about the feeding of the short mags in the Savage. Check it out before you buy. (I was told this by a friend of mine in Green River Wyo, so I can't say if it's a common problem or not)

If it's not smooth and trouble free, go to the 270 Winchester instead.

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Nakihunter
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: szihn]
      #110818 - 01/08/08 12:17 AM

Doc

My views on the subject are a bit old fashioned & a bit off the point...

I remember that a while back you were thinking of getting a double rifle for the lad.....

If it was me, I would fist make sure that the lad is fully into basic hunting. How well does he stalk? Dose he know how to hunt in windy or rainy conditions? Dose he understand deer behaviour and the kind of exit routs the animals will take? Is he happy to walk for a whole day & come home strong minded even if he did not shoot any game?

Yes, the rifle scope combo would be fine. Yes, a good scope is more important than an expensive rifle. However, my point is about passing on the ethos of hunting to the next generation. Can he teach his kids how to stalk, read wind, sign, animal behaviour etc. before teaching them long range shooting?

JMTBW.

Good luck and good hunting - to both of you.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #110846 - 01/08/08 08:40 AM

Getting young people into hunting is a tough issue--

Sadly,the Double went out the door when family nursing home issues popped up.Maybe at some later date.I am going to get him into sporting clays this year with O/U and SXS shotguns if things work out.

My son is learning how to stalk. We stalked doe in season at the hunting club with a crossbow last year.This can be real fun. If you appraoch downwind get within 30-35 yards you can shoot them offhand if your quiet, patient, and your timing is good at dusk/dawn.This year I may cut him loose to stalk on his own.

He also goes with me placing tree stands by finding natural funnels deer take when leaving an area.He can use stands that my broad backside has difficulies with.

Its very hard to develop hunting attachments when young because his generation wants immediate gratification--instantly.He wants to shoot the long stuff,so we will see how that goes.It will probably bore him once he masters some basic skills.

He is a work in progress.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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Nakihunter
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #110851 - 01/08/08 09:44 AM

Doc

That's great. Your son should enjoy sporting clays! Nothing like seeing the clay disks turn to dust for boosting his mojo! Does the lad shoot varmints at long range? Dose he dream more of an African hunt or long range deer? That might help him set some goals and develop appropriate skills.

My 9 year old keeps stalking bunnies in the back yard with his junior bow & arrow. He can get within about 12 yards some times & has even hit a few but only with the shaft! He has certainly been bitten by the bug & keeps trying despite the many failures in the last 10 months! My daughter who is 12 & the above son just love going for a walk with me & a 22. The 6 year old is not so keen & prefers to play computer games or read books! Yes it is a very special time when we take the kids hunting!

Good luck to you both.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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tophet1
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #110852 - 01/08/08 09:53 AM

Get the best optics you can afford. I have a $500 Stevens 200 with Warne Maxima Rings and $1,000 AH Kahles 3.5-10x50 scope and have never regretted it.

There is definantly a very quick steepening of the 'value for money' curve when it comes to optics (a lot like good Hi-Fi audio) but IMO it is all worth it.

I only buy German Zeiss optics now for all my rifles.

Edited by tophet1 (01/08/08 12:07 PM)

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bigmaxx
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: tophet1]
      #110869 - 01/08/08 02:46 PM

I have had tremendous success with the Zeiss Conquest scopes. I have three now and a 8X30 Conquest binocular. I like the clarity of the glass and the european style reticle adjustment on the eyepiece. I have some Leupolds too and like them very much. I like the Warne rings for sure! I have QDs on my Rugers.

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One day at a time...

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tinker
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: bigmaxx]
      #110873 - 01/08/08 03:11 PM

Doc-

There was a Savage 'Plastic Fantastic' -- some new model bolt gun (can't keep up with it all) in '06 out at the ranch.
It was essentially a tip in a trade deal and didn't function much more as an example of how funny looking and cheap feeling the new breed of entry level rifle has become...

...until it finally made it over to the benches and consistently printed dime sized groups with an absolutely crappy bushnell scope screwed to it's forehead!!

That thing freakin shoots.

If the rifle you got your kid is anything like it, get good mounts and put whatever glass you want on it, you sure didn't break the piggy bank on the rifle.

On the other end of the spectrum, I have an anschutz position rifle that I use as the 'longer range' (non grille wearing) pest control system for the downtown crib.
Years ago I'd been looking at a nice set of sights for it, diopter and all that crap, when I was given one of those ultra cheap chinese ultra compact 4x fixed power scopes that came with an SKS bolt shroud mount.
It's worked perfectly for over ten years.
I run CB Long in that rifle (totally silent, only the sound of the brass peening the bolt, sput from the muzzle) and have put hundreds of squirrel, raccoon, opossum, and feral cat down with it, almost every time a one shot drop.

There's a case of expensive rifle, totally cheap as hell scope, and total success, but in that case there's been as much recoil in hundreds of rounds as one from the centerfire bolt rifle.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #110917 - 02/08/08 09:37 AM

Doc,

Practically every new Savage looks accurate enough to shoot the testicles off a mosquito these days. How on earth they keep them as cheap as they do is beyond me. Maybe a Leupold VX 1 from these guys would be a good idea? Definitely cheaper than a new Accutrigger Savage if that is a criterion . . .

Good hunting and congratulations on bringing the young man into our great sport. He might be initially reluctant but once he begins to enjoy it, you'll have a full blown afficianado.

Good hunting to both of you!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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bigmaxx
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #110922 - 02/08/08 10:32 AM

I agree, the Savage rifles are very accurate. So are the Stevens 200 models, although I thought the going price was under $300.00 . I have had a couple and installed the rifle basix triggers with great results. I have a Savage .22-250 112 series synthetic with a heavy fluted barrel and accutrigger now. I put a fairly cheapo Mueller tactical scope on it for coyotes. Its a little too heavy though. Its amazing how accurate they are right out of the box. Real workhorses.

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One day at a time...

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tophet1
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: bigmaxx]
      #110944 - 02/08/08 05:25 PM

US$300, by the time they get to Oz, A$500. I also installed a Rifle Basix Trigger.

Good Optics +++

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hoppdoc
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: tophet1]
      #110945 - 02/08/08 07:07 PM

The Savage company is now converting over its synthetic stocks to a "accu-stock" with an aluminum insert molded into the synthetic stock for rigidity.Helps keep them even MORE consistently accurate.

Appears they are going to have even MORE accuracy potential now.

If I can get such an stock upgrade for a synthetic varmint model in 270 WSM with the accutrigger I will be pleased.Apparently a heck of an accurate rifle for reasonable $$$.

Park a Zeiss Conquest or Swarovski AV(one inch tube)on top and I should have a great shooting rig for less than $1500 and maybe $1000+ if I can find a quality used scope.Leupold does make a Boone&Crockett for ballistic compensation in multiple variations as well--Hmmm--

Sounds reasonable to me--

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (02/08/08 07:12 PM)

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Nakihunter
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #110948 - 02/08/08 09:47 PM

I strongly agree with the idea of a Leupold B&C reticle scope on that rifle. My Kimber Montana 7mm08 has a 2.5-8X Leupold VX3 B&C scope & gives me confidence to shoot game out to 400 meters if need be. I took my longest shot at deer to date - about 300 meters for 1 shot through both shoulder bones & heart.

On the range I am able to group quarter plate or less at 400 meters. At 500 meters the bullet drop is just too much for the caliber & scope to be consistent & I would never try it on big game.

My 280 Ackley Imp in a Sako L61R has a 2.5-10X Swrovski 30mm scope but it does not have a graduated reticle. Even with that arrangement, I can be consistent at 400 meters by using the thick post of the duplex as the aiming point.

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Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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9.3x57
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #110957 - 03/08/08 02:05 AM

This post reminds me of a fellow I once knew who owned a BEAT UP 8mm Mauser his Grandpop brought back from the war. The gun was corroded all over, had a bad bore, had the stock roughly sawn off at the forarm. It was an abortion of the lowest order, a real abomination, a cob, a turd, something best used to hold tomatoes or green beans up in the garden.

He cobbled together a scope mount for it, a mount that didn't even fit, so he used a couple pieces of brass shim stock that stuck out all cattywampus from under the mounts.

On the rifle he mounted a big Swarovski variable one of those 30mm jobs as I recall, a really superb piece of glass.

Every new hunter that hunted at his lodge was required to kill something with this pry bar, and the funny part is that everybody did!

I reckon it grouped maybe 6 inches, and the ammo used was always the pussywillow American stuff. Deer was on the menu, and the gun demonstrated that if you can't shoot what you can't see, you CAN shoot what you can. See, that is.

Even with a tent stake like that old gun.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #110961 - 03/08/08 02:42 AM

Hoppdoc- I'd go with the Savage and good glass - probably a 3200 Elite Bushnel or maybe a 4200 Elite and get the rifle in a .260. This ctg. will provide all the power necessary for shooting bean fields for deer at resonable ranges and be more accurate and cheaper to shoot than the .270. The .270 runs in the 3,100fps rang weith 130gr., while the .260 does just over 3,000fps with 120's of about the same Sec.Den. Virtually the sme as far as the game is considered.
: Want better ballistics than the .270? just open up the .260 to a .260AckImp lengthened to 2.2"(60gr. capacity). The one I did ran 3,308fps with 120XLC's, same speed as top-end loads in my buddies 6.5x68 and my own .264WinMag.
: I've never liked the .270 - maybe becasue I never liked Jackie O. Hmm- sounds much like the other one I never liked.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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hoppdoc
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: DarylS]
      #110963 - 03/08/08 02:58 AM

I like the 264 Win Mag. A superb round that has been overlooked cause the 7 Mag came around. No flies on that round at all--

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: bigmaxx]
      #111131 - 05/08/08 12:01 PM

Bigmaxx,

I have a lot of affection for the Savage and Stevens names. In India I have an old side by side 12 ga with both names on it, probably from a time when the Svaage and Stevens businesses merged? It is nice to see such a grand old name continue to turn out magnificent guns after so many years and still keep their standards high at a very affordable price.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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bigmaxx
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #111141 - 05/08/08 01:39 PM

I have had a number of the Savage and Stevens 311 type doubles, They are truly tough guns. I have an old Stevens "crackshot .22 rifle" that says "patent applied for". I guess its pretty old. I had a 200 in .30-06 that was great. Only sold it because a buddy nagged me into selling it to him. Then I replaced it with a .308. It was accurate but never fed right. With the mag loaded and one in the barrel, if you fired it and opened the bolt the top round on the mag would jump out of the gun! Never could get it right...

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Cinghiale
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: bigmaxx]
      #111164 - 05/08/08 10:11 PM

Pricey scopes?
how much is that extra twenty minutes of twilight worth to you?
Is it worth the buck of a lifetime or a leopard in the dapled last light of day?

Cheap rifles?
A good 'cheap' rifle that groups and functions well with a stable stock is worth more than an expensive rifle that will not group under two inches with any load and has a garish stock that has a mirrored finish that the sun will shine off on a cloudy day.


Savage is not 'cheap' I believe them to be bloody good value. I used to use my dad's 22-250 growing up and I could shoot roo's at 300 with that gun and a Pecar scope. You will be the best judge of what suits your son, and how he tolerates recoil. Calibre wise I have never hunted in the US so I do not know.

Savage/Stevens and Khales or Savage and Zeiss, either would be a killer combo. Tophet1 got it right!!!

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moltogordo
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #111208 - 06/08/08 01:07 PM

I remember, in years past, putting my first premium scope (Swarovski) on a rifle of average price (Remington 700 Classic in .300 Weatherby)

This rifle has never shot groups larger than 1/2 inch with tailored ammunition. Would it shoot worse if I put a cheap scope on it? I really don't know, because that scope has never been off that rifle, which I bought almost 30 years ago.

Since then, the scope has come first, not the rifle or calibre. I proceeded to outfit all of my favorite rifles with premium scopes (mostly Leupolds and Swarovskis) and you know what? They all shot better. I shot better. My confidence went up and I became a better hunter.

To me now, it's not whether or not I can afford another rifle, but whether or not I can afford another scope.

My suggestion is to stick with the "cheap rifle, pricey scope" dictum, and don't go the other way around. Whether its for you, or your boy.

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Ripp
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #111219 - 06/08/08 09:16 PM

Quote:

I like the 264 Win Mag. A superb round that has been overlooked cause the 7 Mag came around. No flies on that round at all--



Agree totally ,, the .264 Win Mag is an awesome round--picked up a limited edition in that caliber---first few loads all under an 1" at 100 yards---has some possibilities...

There is also an article regarding "Retro Rounds"..in this months Rifle Shooter" magazine --of which the .264 is mentioned...interesting article..

The 264 Win got a bad rap and bad timing as you pointed out with the introduction of the Remington 7mm...however ballistically, it is an awesome round..

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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albertan
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Re: Cheap Rifle, Pricey Scope?? [Re: Ripp]
      #112364 - 24/08/08 10:02 AM

I have many rifles chambered in numerous cartridges. The WSM's are tough to reload. Getting factory ballistics out a reload is tough. The old 7mm Remington is a better cartridge than the .270 WSM. I have played with both. The old Remington number is cheaper to shoot, easier to find, and easier to stuff.

I like your idea of a good, but inexpensive rifle coupled with good glass for a first rifle. I have found the Zeiss Conquest to be superb glass for the price. A 3.5-10 with a 44 mm objective would allow for long range hunting shots without bells and whistles; i.e., adjustable objectives, sun shades, and unnecessary bulk.

Just my 2 cents worth.

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