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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Handguns
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bigger_is_best
.275 member


Reged: 16/01/07
Posts: 82
Loc: Australia
9mm Browning Hi-Power
      #110434 - 26/07/08 07:36 AM

Recently read that the Browning Hi-Power suffered lock failure in some of the early versions. The article indicated that some have what are called "round lugs" and some had "square lugs".

I also recal a safety warning coming out in the early 80's about locking lug failures in the armies issue Brownings, but I thought at the time they were suspecting over presure French ammo as the cause.

Anyone know what the story is regarding potentialy flawed 9mm Hi-Powers, and how would you recognise the round or square lugs, if it is a real problem?

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hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: 9mm Browning Hi-Power [Re: bigger_is_best]
      #110437 - 26/07/08 09:18 AM

I heard that it definitely was a problem with some types of ammo in early guns.The metal was softer in early guns and the parts more fragile.I have read many places that no +p ammo should ever be shot in older guns!!

My 40 has different(more) lugs than a 9mm(3 vs 2) and the slide and parts are more robust.In short,its a tougher gun made for a 40 cal than earlier Hi Powers set up for standard pressure 9mm rounds.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_2_50/ai_112128013/pg_1?tag=artBody;col1

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: 9mm Browning Hi-Power [Re: hoppdoc]
      #110481 - 26/07/08 11:51 PM

ALL guns have teething problems and can have problems if ammo spec is changed during the service life of the gun. These stories get kicked around after somebody reads a half chapter in a history book and then promptly falls alsleep before they read up to the solution.

I collected GP's for years, never had any locking problems. But...

I believe the problems you refer to are actually some problems associated with very high pressure UK service loadings that did pre-MKII pistols {including Inglis'} no good. Thus, the MKII and MKIII pistols.

Several excellent books have been written, see Collector Grade Publications.

Remember, BHP's have seen numerous changes over the years from their inception in the late '30's, thru WW2 made German guns, to postwar series and then the variations until the MK2 and MKIII pistols of the 80's-late 90's.

I only own one now, a shoulder-stocked, 1973-commercial job.



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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: 9mm Browning Hi-Power [Re: 9.3x57]
      #110490 - 27/07/08 01:47 AM

Due to the concern expressed by a fellow member, I should add, this 1973-made, factory, stock-slotted Capitan "pistol" is fully legal and registered with NFA/BATFE as a "Short Barrel Rifle", with necessary tax stamp paid. No cause for alarm. Thanks for the concern!!

Been with me on many a ski jaunt in the back country, too!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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bigger_is_best
.275 member


Reged: 16/01/07
Posts: 82
Loc: Australia
Re: 9mm Browning Hi-Power [Re: 9.3x57]
      #110512 - 27/07/08 09:42 AM

Thanks for the feedback. I have never seen one fail, and considering the number in millitary use it seemed strange that the problem was not widely known. Could well be an early development problem that would only impact collectors who want to fire their guns. The guns I had experience with were made in the mid 60's from memory. Australia does does not consider pistols as "serious" military weapons, more a status thing, so they bought some from FN and kept them for ever. They have upgraded to the ambidextrous model since, MkII I think.

The point of European ammo is well taken. Also in the 80's I recal a problem with French blanks of all things, and I did see a number of FN-FAL's of Australian manufacture that had been wrecked by those rounds. Pressure damage pure and simple. No-one would suggest an FN-FAL was a poor design.

I did use an Inglis with the long range sight and shoulder stock, of wartime manufacture, when I was in the army. Loved it then, and would love to give the one in the photo a home. The sights are a bit optemistic, but as a bonus we did try one on the 600 yard range, and I would not like to be in front of half a dozen of them even at that range. Suppose in the context of shooting at groups of unfriendly troops, the sights were as valid as many military rifles, with their squat pyramid fronts and V rear.

Perhaps Glock should take a look at hopdoc's .40. There efforts in that calibre seem to have a slide problem. I have seen many cracked through the slide, and have shot several that were repaired. They looked as ugly as anything I have seen, with a hunk of tensile steel welded allongside the slide. It is hard to knock the performance and function of the Glock, but I don't like the non traditional look and materials. Still like to get one when I can be sure of keeping up attendances for the licence though. Seems it is only the .40 with lots of rounds that fails. Guns used for training, security and corrections are the ones I have seen or used. Doesn't seem to happen with any other calibres.

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: 9mm Browning Hi-Power [Re: bigger_is_best]
      #110515 - 27/07/08 10:19 AM

I've used the stock at all ranges to 500 meters on my range on the ranch here. I have also used it on varmints, trapped critters and butcher sheep.

I can shoot the pistol as well or better without the stock, mostly due to the fact that the rear sight is far to close to the eye when the stock is mounted and used. In my experience, there is one exception, and that is extreme fatigue. Shooting after long climbs on foot or on skis or after sprints or ski sprints reveals a bit of an advantage sometimes with the stock. This is not guaranteed. Some years ago I did a series of pretty extensive tests with this pistol, both with and without the stock, and found that the stock in effect serves no good purpose overall. Miltary tests with the stocked HP's came to the same conclusion.

I've always wondered if I replaced the open rear with a peep if the stock would improve in performance. I suppose I could try if I got a spare leaf for the tangent sight.

By the way, the stock registered to this gun is in fact a Canadian Inglis stock, not the flat board normally associated with Belgian pistols. It required just a bit of light filing to fit.

If you want a reading list that includes material on these great guns, here are some excellent books:

* THE BROWNING HIGH POWER AUTOMATIC PISTOL by R Blake Stevens

* INGLIS DIAMOND; THE CANADIAN HIGH POWER PISTOL by Clive M Law

* THE BELGIAN BROWNING PISTOLS 1889-1949 by Anthony Vanderlinden

* A HISTORY OF THE WORLD'S 9MM PISTOLS & AMMUNITION by König and Hugo

* THE WORLD'S MACHINE PISTOLS AND SUBMACHINE GUNS, Vol II by Nelson and Musgrave

* HOLSTERS AND SHOULDER-STOCK OF THE WORLD by Vanderlinden

* MILITARY HOLSTERS OF WORLD WAR II by Bender

One thing about the shoulder-stocked BHP that in my opinion exists regardless of its utility. It just plain looks cool!

Back when it was new, here is the stock and detachable holster I made for it.

This attaches either to a regular shoulder strap I made {see below}, or to a light double-shoulder "pack-style" rig I cobbled together from a British Army lightweight nylon web set for skiing.





Note the short eye relief:






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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: 9mm Browning Hi-Power [Re: bigger_is_best]
      #110532 - 27/07/08 02:12 PM

The Glock shown is not a 40 but a Model 36, a single stack 45 ACP pistol about an inch thick.Points and shoots great.


I do have a long slide Glock and have noticed no problems but I can't say I have used it heavily.That honor would go to the 1911's,Sigs and HK's I play with when possible(not recently).

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: 9mm Browning Hi-Power [Re: hoppdoc]
      #110535 - 27/07/08 02:50 PM

9.3:
Very ncie Hipower. Tangent sights and stock, etc. I have the Mauser C-96 .30 with stock and harness set. Neat combo. My Hi-Power is Herstal FN. Serial numbers magazines, barrel and frame. No tangent.
Maybe you know more history of this than I have found. I presume sometime in the '50 manufature but am not sure. I have the original FN Blue box.
The Hi-Power is one of my favorites. I do enjoy the C-96. This is a nice, accurate and easy to shoot little carbine / pistol. Mine is Mauser from about 1924, but did come out of China, say 15 = 20 years ago.
I will try to post phots when I have time.
Thanks for the info.

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"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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dale
.333 member


Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 341
Loc: logan W.V.
Re: 9mm Browning Hi-Power [Re: hoppdoc]
      #110536 - 27/07/08 02:50 PM

9ThreeXFifty7,

That's a nice rig you made. Our's came with a short strap about 7 or so inches long that clips on the hanger then has a loop for the belt. I'd love to have a new one like your's with the tanget sight. Mine is good enough for carry with the regular sight but the tanget sight just looks better. I can shoot mine about as well as any pistol I have except a k38. Honestly I could shoot it better without the stock but I just love the uniqueness of it. The inglis stock is ten times better than the board stock, they just don't get it.

I'm curious, Dad's is registered also but he's had it forever. I was under the impression that they changed the rulings a few years ago and the ones like your's don't have to be registered anymore if they came slotted. Is this wrong?

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: 9mm Browning Hi-Power [Re: dale]
      #110546 - 27/07/08 11:56 PM

Quote:

I'm curious, Dad's is registered also but he's had it forever. I was under the impression that they changed the rulings a few years ago and the ones like your's don't have to be registered anymore if they came slotted. Is this wrong?



Thanks, Gents.

Dale, regarding this quote, I believe you are right, not about HP's but about some P-08's but I am not sure.

Along those lines, the best and in my opinion, only, thing a fellow can and should do is contact NFA Branch of BATFE to determine what is or is not legal. Even a silly mistake could be a positive disaster.

I have over the course of the years sent them letters requesting a ruling on this or that gun question. It took a bit of time, but they made legal rulings, gave me them in writing, and I filed them. I hate to admit it but my experience with NFA Branch has always been very cordial and every person I've dealt with over the years there was very helpful.

Maybe because in effect, the tax registration of NFA guns is in effect gun registration? Who knows.

I don't really care, because Uncle has all of our names on 4473 forms, C&R's or Dealer FFL's, Concealed Carry licenses, State Firearms Purchase cards, etc, etc. To think "info sharing" couldn't happen between State and Federal agencies seems a bit naive to me. Let's face it, gun owners in America are for the most part easily known to the gubmnt if they want to find out. Heck, all they'd have to do was observe how many Cabela's catalogs a guy gets, or what his magazine subscriptions are. Case closed!

Stay legal!

Oh, yeah, you "Eagle Eye's" out there might have noticed. Yes, that's a 20-shot magazine.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (28/07/08 12:03 AM)

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bigger_is_best
.275 member


Reged: 16/01/07
Posts: 82
Loc: Australia
Re: 9mm Browning Hi-Power [Re: 9.3x57]
      #110581 - 28/07/08 12:58 PM

So the 13+1 just wasn't enough when those goffers attack, or was it a supperstition thing that called for the 20 round mag? Went to the range on the weekend and checked the sights up close. Seems that someone has been replacing sights over the last 25 years, because I don't remember them being so fuzzy when I was younger.
The more pictures I see of that gun, the more I know I need to find time to get my licence back. Here in Australia we have to attend a certain number of shhots each year to remain licenced. Given the lack of approved ranges, and my variable carreer path, that is just not do-able at the moment, hence my long gun only status for the past 15 years.

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