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ChrisPer
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Reged: 12/05/08
Posts: 235
Loc: Australia
Identifying a chambering -Thomas Turner BP double
      #110096 - 21/07/08 02:09 AM

I would appreciate any help people can give to identify this chambering in my black powder double, just acquired. I bought the rifle from an owner who had never fired it, and was unsure but thought it was possibly .500/.450. The only calibre marking is 56 in what I take to be the view proofs, (approximately .436?) but that would be before final bore and rifling.



I bought some Cerrosafe and did a chamber cast. It came out fuzzy due to oil I sprayed in as release agent, but gives a good indication of shape. The sketch is dimensioned in mm, and below are the conversions to decimal inch. The measurements were taken with a vernier caliper, and are only plus-minus a thou or two.

mm Inches
25.4
2.3 0.091 Rim
11.75 0.463 groove depth in first inch of rifling
12.55 0.494 Case mouth outside dia
12.75 0.502 ahead of shoulder
13.88 0.546 before shoulder
14.83 0.584 ahead of rim
16.58 0.653 outer dia of rim
69.14 2.722 Case length
52.6 2.071 start of neck
45.7 1.799 start of shoulder



I will have another shot to get a crisp casting later, and borrow a micrometer to get throat diameter more exactly.


The case length is 2.722" max.

So, can anyone identify the round precisely from this? Your help will be greatly appreciated.

Edited by ChrisPer (21/07/08 02:11 AM)


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ChrisPer
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Re: Identifying a chambering -Thomas Turner BP double [Re: ChrisPer]
      #110097 - 21/07/08 02:15 AM








When I am happy with the image quality I will add it to the DR photo archive, along with any other results of research.


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lancaster
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Re: Identifying a chambering -Thomas Turner BP double [Re: ChrisPer]
      #110099 - 21/07/08 02:31 AM

577/500 No.2

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.
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AkMike
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Re: Identifying a chambering -Thomas Turner BP double [Re: lancaster]
      #110104 - 21/07/08 04:02 AM

How can it be a 577/500 when the groove size is .463?


From what I see it's probably a 500/450 Number 1 Express
2 3/4" case. But I'd re-do the chamber cast and heat the barrels a tad warmer.. I think that's the problem.

It's ironic that there is another Turner listed on Gunbroker now. As nice as yours maybe.


Edit; Here's the twin.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=105149721

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

Edited by AkMike (21/07/08 04:11 AM)


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tinker
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Chamber Casting with Cerrosafe - getting useful results [Re: ChrisPer]
      #110105 - 21/07/08 04:20 AM

Chris-

It looks like you have a fun project in your hands there.
If that action locks up tight on the face, the locks are safe to run, and the barrels don't pop when you get it out for a test drive,
you'll have a really fun hunting rifle that you won't have to worry about getting 'a little nick' in the finish out in the field.

Congratulations to you!

A chamber cast is a great place to start, it can tell you a lot.
Something I always look for is a bulge or ring in the chamber.
Bulge in the belly of the chamber, swollen ring near the neck.
These could indicate previous overloading, shooting with unsafe loads,
or point out previous 'chamber work' like overzealous clean-up of pitting with abrasive stones in power tools (it happens...)
This kind of issue wouldn't show up on the outside of the barrels or chambers if at some time in the past
someone 'struck up' the problem on the outside of the barrels with files and stones during a re-finish job.
That rifle has seen some re-finish jobs in it's career.

Something for you to note, for others to know for further reference, it's pretty easy to get perfect chamber casts.
There are an infinite number of ways to do it wrong, and most of them will give crap results.

No offense meant here, but what you show above is a pretty much useless chamber cast and you need to start fresh.
You also need to slug your bores with pure lead roundball from muzzle ends and chamber ends.

Chamber casts, when done right will give you a huge amount of information on the condition of your chambers,
and the condition of your bores at the leade of the rifling.

You need perfectly clean, dry and warm barrels to do it right.
Clean so that you are not measuring the negative space left where there was dirt or oil.
Warm barrels so that the cold barrels don't solidify the casting alloy as it's being poured.

Look at this path to good chamber casts.
Notice that it doesn't take any more time or effort than doing a bad job, and believe it that it takes this kind of approach to get good results.




First thing.
With cerrosafe, never use a 'release agent'
It is not necessary.
It will give poor results.
Start with fresh, very clean chambers and bores.

Next, Set Up.
When you are setting up to do your chamber casting, get two big pots of water boiling.

One of them is to use as your 'double boiler' heat source for melting the cerrosafe alloy.
DO NOT USE A TIN LINED POT TO MELT YOUR CERROSAFE ALLOY!

The other one is to set your rifle breeches into so as to get them up to (this very low temperature) the same temperature of your casting alloy.

Make sure that whatever tools you will be using, such as ladle and funnel are also up to the same temperature.
Use gloves or pliers or 'vice grips' to handle the tools and the little pot of casting alloy.

Make sure you have a hard wood rod long enough to completely pass through your barrels.
This is what you will use to 'tap out' the chamber cast.
Also, have some nose tissue or toilet tissue and practice stuffing it real hard into the chamber end of your bores.
This is what you can plug them with, and it works great.
Everyone has something like this in their house.
You can use cloth from an old undershirt or bed sheet too.

Have a vise with padded jaws or the back of a chair and some shoestrings or whatever,
to hold your rifle barrels firm, solid, and steady,
chambers up.

Do one or more practice runs of taking the barrels out of the pot,
clamping them with the chambers up,
stuffing your 'bore plugs' into the bores an inch into the rifling past the chambers,
and handling the other tools of the job.
You don't want to fumble when it's time to do the job.

Make a 'catch basket'
Cerrosafe chamber casts can break if they drop onto a hard surface or fall off the table.
Also you don't want to foul up the surfaces of your casts.
Keep all the information about your chambers you can!
Have a nice soft spot to catch the chamber casts.
I have used a cardboard box with crumpled newspaper as padding,
an old undershirt placed on top as a landing pad


Now, Get Ready...
Know how much tissue, or old undershirt or bedsheet fabric you need for your bore plugs and have it ready to go.

Get the chamber ends of your barrels into their pot,
get your 'double boiler' in the other pot and add the casting metal.
Put your other tools in either of the two pots,
I usually hang them from the edge of the pot that the barrels are in.

Give the pots of water heat,
get the water good and hot,
get your alloy flowing in it's 'double boiler'


Now it's time to go!
When the casting alloy is up to temperature, your barrels are ready to take from the water and get secured into the padded vise jaws,
or tied to the back of the chair,
or clamped to a ladder
or whatever.

Plug the bores so that you get an inch or so of the rifled bores.
Clamp the barrels nice and steady.
Make sure your extractors are set into their cuts,
that they are level with the chamber rim.

Carefully pour the cerrosafe alloy into your chambers,
going up to the top of the rims 'and a little bit more'
Ideal shape is kind of like a mushroom cap.

Note the time on your clock and wait 30 minutes.
When 30 minutes pass, get the barrels out of the vise or whatever,
and carefully turn them over to drop the casts out into your padded 'catch basket',
if they don't drop out, the wood dowel with a light tap from your hand should drop them out.

Follow the directions that came with it (and are available on the web) for measuring what you get.


As well as chamber casting, it's also important to slug your bores with pure lead roundball.
Go from the chamber end, go from the muzzle end BOTH WAYS.
The bore slugging process will give you good indication of your bore/groove dimensions
and will also give you a good sense of whether or not there are bulges in your barrels
(indicated by parts of the barrel that 'get easy to push' the slug through)
and will also indicate such other things as gain twist rifling or tapered bores.

Not to say we expect to see any of that in this rifle,
but someone in the future will find this post in a search, and their rifle might...



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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400NitroExpress
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Re: Identifying a chambering -Thomas Turner BP double [Re: ChrisPer]
      #110134 - 21/07/08 01:35 PM

Proof marks for British rifles were not very specific to the cartridge case until the rules of 1925. These are pre-1887 Birmingham marks and the "56" is the bore in gauge, which indicates a .450. Chamber dimensions are strongly suggestive of a .500/.450 No. 1 Express.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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ChrisPer
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Re: Identifying a chambering -Thomas Turner BP double [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #110136 - 21/07/08 01:58 PM

Thanks, I will get a good chamber cast, slugs and micrometer and come back with more info.

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ChrisPer
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Re: Identifying a chambering -Thomas Turner BP double [Re: ChrisPer]
      #110349 - 24/07/08 08:17 PM


Here are the new chamber casts and (below) measurements. Thanks for those instructions Tinker! I am still rounding up lead slugs the right size and a micrometer.

I went to see a knowledgeable gentleman and we looked through his cartridge references, and the only real prospect we could see was the .500/450 No 1 Express, 2 3/4". The part that was contradicting this was the case length being a bit short, but on reflection I may have been measuring a tiny bit back from abutment on the step for the case mouth. Also, the Cartridges of the World measurements are on rounds, not chambers so should have some clearance.

However, those throat diameters are bothering me - .463 to .468 seems excessive over a nominal .458 projectile. Could the throat be larger for the paper patch, or is the lead projectile smaller than .458 for paper patch?



The .303 case is to make me smile, cause this is still an awesome huge round even if it isn't the big 3 1/4" No 2!



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miroflex
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Re: Identifying a chambering -Thomas Turner BP double [Re: ChrisPer]
      #251300 - 31/07/14 12:28 AM

I found this thread very interesting as I have recently acquired a weapon chambered for the .500/.450 No.1 Express 2 3/4" cartridge. It is a box lock hammerless double rifle by Fraser of Edinburgh.

I would like to know whether dies for reloading are available and what loads are recommended for blackpowder and smokeless powders.

Regards.

--------------------
"To the lover of art for its own sake it is frequently in its lowliest and least important manifestations that the keenest pleasure to be found." Sherlock Holmes in "The Adventure Of The Copper Beeches" by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.


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Huvius
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Re: Identifying a chambering -Thomas Turner BP double [Re: miroflex]
      #251302 - 31/07/14 01:04 AM

Chris, I would say that you are correct that it is the 500/450 No.1 Express.
The 500/450s do tend to have big throats so one thing to do is to go ahead and load up a round with a .458" cast bullet, fire it, and get a measurement of the fired case.
You should be able to use a soft lead bullet which will allow you to seat in the case with not a lot of pressure. It will be bigger than bore, and probably bigger than groove but if you are going with a NfB load, this seems to be the way to go.
Using black powder will allow you to use a smaller cast bullet which will bump up in the throat and then sqeeze down passing through the bore.
I went through the same thing with a couple of my 450s and now that I am paper patching, I can wrap and size the bullets to whatever diameter the chamber requires. My No.1 Express wants a bigger bullet than my No.2 Musket but honestly, they both shoot pretty well with a .458" bullet too! You may be able to use off the shelf .458" bullets after all. Give it a try.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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kuduae
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Re: Identifying a chambering -Thomas Turner BP double [Re: Huvius]
      #251309 - 31/07/14 02:03 AM

Here is my .500 - .450 No.1 2 ¾” double rifle again. It is Birmingham made and proofed pre-1887. Marked and retailed by A.Robertson & Son, Wick, Scotland. It has a H.Homer, Birmingham, patent foreend latch and non-rebounding locks.
I once found a set of RCBS dies on ebay. My hunting load up until now: Cases resized from Bell .500 NE or Hornady .470 brass, CCI LR magnum primer, 70 gr VV N140, open cell foam wad 25 x 14 mm, 350 gr Hornady rn, for 585 m/s = 1920 fps. One problem: The .500-.450 #1 had a thicker rim than both the .470 and .500. Such “thick rim” cases are not available afaik. Graeme Wright suggests several solutions to the problem, but I invented another one: I took the extractor out of my rifle and applied a drop of silver solder to it’s rim recesses. Some carefull work with a Dremel followed. Now the cases are held back against the breechface by the extractor, no excessive headspace.




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Huvius
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Re: Identifying a chambering -Thomas Turner BP double [Re: kuduae]
      #251318 - 31/07/14 03:54 AM

Quote:

One problem: The .500-.450 #1 had a thicker rim than both the .470 and .500. Such “thick rim” cases are not available afaik.




I have been using correct rimmed and formed Bertram brass which has lasted quite well so far but your method and headspacing off of the shoulder, as you mention, are good alternatives.

What does your case mouth blow out to? I find I have to partial neck size to get any grip on .458" bullets and I suspect that will shorten case life some.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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kuduae
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Re: Identifying a chambering -Thomas Turner BP double [Re: Huvius]
      #251321 - 31/07/14 05:56 AM

Huvius, first, I use my .500-.450 #1 for hunting most. So absolute reliability and easy loading require full length resizing anyhow. As both barrels are a bit rough, I did not have much luck with greased lead or paper patched bullets, but the load mentioned above, using jacketed bullets, shoots inside 3” at 100 m all the time. Before you tell me recipes for any cast bullets, I got an entirely different problem to solve now: We are ordered to use only lead free bullets for hunting in our state forest! So I will have to develop a leadfree load, maybe using Barnes .45-70 350gr bullets, to keep my rifle in action.
Headspacing off the shoulder was out in my rifle, as both chambers are very slightly different. Sorting and marking cartridges for right or left is not practical for hunting use, so I have to fl resize anyhow. I regularly anneal cases and have had no losses so far.
My case necks expand from .479” outside diameter, bullets seated, to .492” after firing. IMHO this .013” = 0.33 mm neck expansion is not too excessive. Alas, any case neck has to expand on firing to release the bullet. Lack of space for neck expansion is the main reason for excessive pressure when a 8mmS, .323 bullet cartridge is fired in a tight 8mmI, .318” bullet, chamber. Contrary to popular belief it is not the too small bore/rifling dimensions.


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Huvius
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Re: Identifying a chambering -Thomas Turner BP double [Re: kuduae]
      #251338 - 31/07/14 11:07 AM

That is a bit of a quandry.
I have thought of toying with monometal non-lead bullets in sabots but haven't done anything like that.
Should be able to use muzzle loader sabots if they are available in the correct diameter.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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kuduae
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Re: Identifying a chambering -Thomas Turner BP double [Re: Huvius]
      #251357 - 31/07/14 07:57 PM

Quote:

That is a bit of a quandry.
I have thought of toying with monometal non-lead bullets in sabots but haven't done anything like that.
Should be able to use muzzle loader sabots if they are available in the correct diameter.




Another bright idea, but, sorry, the use of saboted bullets in breechloaders is outlawed over here since the 1970s.


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ChrisPer
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Re: Identifying a chambering -Thomas Turner BP double [Re: kuduae]
      #251716 - 07/08/14 09:06 PM

Huvius, kuduae and miroflex,
interesting to see this thread get a jolt from the old electrodes!

In 2008 I obtained Bertram cases, a little loading data and read up on loading NfB loads. I tried several loads, probably too light, and tried again a bit heavier and with neck crimping.

The load I settled on was for .458 300gn JHP from The Bullet Factory (thin jacket) which I believe suitable for lower velocities. The references state 110 gn black powder, and I received advice to use AR2206, 40% of the weight of the BP load, and fill the air gap with compressed Dacron.

The load was very satisfactory (Bang, whomp, no harm to gun) but the cloud of Dacron fibre unsightly and would potentially contaminate the wool (shooting on the sheep farm).

The rifle did not shoot together (WAAYY APART!) and I concluded the separated barrels needed re-soldering. That work is, after 6 years, being done now. The thread I started to discuss it is at http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=243949&an=0&page=0#Post243949

In the course of that I have been reading Graeme Wright's book very carefully so as to be sure I understand loading for this cartridge. The book is short of info on it, but has a lot for two related cartridges, the 500/450 BP Express 3 1/4" and the 450 3 1/4" BP.

The 450 3 1/4" BP.is closest, it used the same lighter bullet range and 120gn BP (the No 1 2 3/4" used 110 gn BP) Original 270gn hollow nose or 300gn, later loaded to a maximum of 365gn in NfB loads.

On page 145 of the 3rd edition, are loads for this rifle. There is one load that uses a 300gn jacketed bullet and AR2213sc with no filler, giving 1450 fps.

The gunsmith doing the work for me has used a starting load of 80gns AR2213sc with no filler, and a 300gn cast bullet.

I will not retype the loads from Graeme Wright here in case someone misunderstands and puts the slightly larger 3 1/4"smokeless loads in the slightly smaller 2 3/4" case. I think they would not be dangerous, but in this game we protect our rifles by avoiding that risk. I will scan the page for emailing to you miroflex. It lists loads for ten different powders and since I believe it is difficult to get exactly what you want in India that range of choices may help.

Dies
Dies are listed from a couple of suppliers, CH4D but I was not feeling rich so to get started I bought a set of Lee 45/70 dies and cut them down to use as neck dies, then ground relief around the inside edges. I also bought a .458WIN Lee crimp die, relived the inside of the tube by grinding until it went over the case, and made a ring to fill the gap from the shellholder to the crimper slide.

For a shellholder I bought a Lee holder for the 7.62 Russian rimmed round, the nearest size in the shop, and used a micro cutting disk in the Dremel to open it out for the .500/450 base.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Chamber Casting with Cerrosafe - getting useful results [Re: tinker]
      #366509 - 09/06/22 06:20 PM

Bttt

Quote:

Chris-

It looks like you have a fun project in your hands there.
If that action locks up tight on the face, the locks are safe to run, and the barrels don't pop when you get it out for a test drive,
you'll have a really fun hunting rifle that you won't have to worry about getting 'a little nick' in the finish out in the field.

Congratulations to you!

A chamber cast is a great place to start, it can tell you a lot.
Something I always look for is a bulge or ring in the chamber.
Bulge in the belly of the chamber, swollen ring near the neck.
These could indicate previous overloading, shooting with unsafe loads,
or point out previous 'chamber work' like overzealous clean-up of pitting with abrasive stones in power tools (it happens...)
This kind of issue wouldn't show up on the outside of the barrels or chambers if at some time in the past
someone 'struck up' the problem on the outside of the barrels with files and stones during a re-finish job.
That rifle has seen some re-finish jobs in it's career.

Something for you to note, for others to know for further reference, it's pretty easy to get perfect chamber casts.
There are an infinite number of ways to do it wrong, and most of them will give crap results.

No offense meant here, but what you show above is a pretty much useless chamber cast and you need to start fresh.
You also need to slug your bores with pure lead roundball from muzzle ends and chamber ends.

Chamber casts, when done right will give you a huge amount of information on the condition of your chambers,
and the condition of your bores at the leade of the rifling.

You need perfectly clean, dry and warm barrels to do it right.
Clean so that you are not measuring the negative space left where there was dirt or oil.
Warm barrels so that the cold barrels don't solidify the casting alloy as it's being poured.

Look at this path to good chamber casts.
Notice that it doesn't take any more time or effort than doing a bad job, and believe it that it takes this kind of approach to get good results.




First thing.
With cerrosafe, never use a 'release agent'
It is not necessary.
It will give poor results.
Start with fresh, very clean chambers and bores.

Next, Set Up.
When you are setting up to do your chamber casting, get two big pots of water boiling.

One of them is to use as your 'double boiler' heat source for melting the cerrosafe alloy.
DO NOT USE A TIN LINED POT TO MELT YOUR CERROSAFE ALLOY!

The other one is to set your rifle breeches into so as to get them up to (this very low temperature) the same temperature of your casting alloy.

Make sure that whatever tools you will be using, such as ladle and funnel are also up to the same temperature.
Use gloves or pliers or 'vice grips' to handle the tools and the little pot of casting alloy.

Make sure you have a hard wood rod long enough to completely pass through your barrels.
This is what you will use to 'tap out' the chamber cast.
Also, have some nose tissue or toilet tissue and practice stuffing it real hard into the chamber end of your bores.
This is what you can plug them with, and it works great.
Everyone has something like this in their house.
You can use cloth from an old undershirt or bed sheet too.

Have a vise with padded jaws or the back of a chair and some shoestrings or whatever,
to hold your rifle barrels firm, solid, and steady,
chambers up.

Do one or more practice runs of taking the barrels out of the pot,
clamping them with the chambers up,
stuffing your 'bore plugs' into the bores an inch into the rifling past the chambers,
and handling the other tools of the job.
You don't want to fumble when it's time to do the job.

Make a 'catch basket'
Cerrosafe chamber casts can break if they drop onto a hard surface or fall off the table.
Also you don't want to foul up the surfaces of your casts.
Keep all the information about your chambers you can!
Have a nice soft spot to catch the chamber casts.
I have used a cardboard box with crumpled newspaper as padding,
an old undershirt placed on top as a landing pad


Now, Get Ready...
Know how much tissue, or old undershirt or bedsheet fabric you need for your bore plugs and have it ready to go.

Get the chamber ends of your barrels into their pot,
get your 'double boiler' in the other pot and add the casting metal.
Put your other tools in either of the two pots,
I usually hang them from the edge of the pot that the barrels are in.

Give the pots of water heat,
get the water good and hot,
get your alloy flowing in it's 'double boiler'


Now it's time to go!
When the casting alloy is up to temperature, your barrels are ready to take from the water and get secured into the padded vise jaws,
or tied to the back of the chair,
or clamped to a ladder
or whatever.

Plug the bores so that you get an inch or so of the rifled bores.
Clamp the barrels nice and steady.
Make sure your extractors are set into their cuts,
that they are level with the chamber rim.

Carefully pour the cerrosafe alloy into your chambers,
going up to the top of the rims 'and a little bit more'
Ideal shape is kind of like a mushroom cap.

Note the time on your clock and wait 30 minutes.
When 30 minutes pass, get the barrels out of the vise or whatever,
and carefully turn them over to drop the casts out into your padded 'catch basket',
if they don't drop out, the wood dowel with a light tap from your hand should drop them out.

Follow the directions that came with it (and are available on the web) for measuring what you get.


As well as chamber casting, it's also important to slug your bores with pure lead roundball.
Go from the chamber end, go from the muzzle end BOTH WAYS.
The bore slugging process will give you good indication of your bore/groove dimensions
and will also give you a good sense of whether or not there are bulges in your barrels
(indicated by parts of the barrel that 'get easy to push' the slug through)
and will also indicate such other things as gain twist rifling or tapered bores.

Not to say we expect to see any of that in this rifle,
but someone in the future will find this post in a search, and their rifle might...



--Tinker




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Chamber Casting with Cerrosafe - getting useful results [Re: NitroX]
      #366515 - 09/06/22 10:04 PM

Some really good advice and method here by tinker.

I've never chamber cast before so it will be the first time for me.

First to start with, is my .500 Exp Cogswell & Harrison double circa Maye 1870s to 1900. And the Westley Richards 1872 10-bore double.

Long beyond getting them identified documented and shooting.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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