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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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dale
.333 member


Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 341
Loc: logan W.V.
questions for Tinker
      #109415 - 10/07/08 03:27 PM

Gettting a tig welder isn't in the forseeable future but I can work with the welder if I knew what to tell him. The shop is mostly fabrication of mine machanery and they use the tig for angle iron. Could you share a little knowledge as to what works best?

Is there a basic heat you work with for guns?
Does the metal have to be preheated?
WHat do you use for a filler?

The welder tried using a piece of his mig wire for a filler rod and I don't remember what is was but it was impossible to file. Would it be better to have a small groove and no filler or a larger groove and a filler?

thanks in advance
dale


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: questions for Tinker [Re: dale]
      #109418 - 10/07/08 04:53 PM

Dale-

I'm going to be pretty frank here.
I would likely trust one one-thousandth of one percent of US welders to work on my gear.

There are a lot of welders out there who can get certified, pass ultrasound weld tests, properly manufacture mining equipment, and perform all sorts of other 'sticking metal together' tasks without endangering themselves or others.

Welding gun parts is another story entirely.
Most guys out there welding (on) gun parts don't really qualify as far as I've seen and have been seeing since I was a boy.

What you want to find is a shop where the welders instinctively scrutinize the parts, where the guys notice right off the bat, before they even get within arm's reach of the piece that say, there's a rib soldered to that barrel, or even further that the solder that's holding that rib (or sight ramp or whatever the hell) could be soft solder or it could be cupric-metal high temperature silver solder -- they might even be able to tell that from a couple feet off.
You want the guy who can tell the difference between a casting and a forging. You want the guy who will be able to tell what parts of the gun will need pre-heating before the weld, heat treating after the weld, special welding wire (and have it or access to it) if necessary, and will know to ask when he doesn't know.
This guy's going to want to know the wall thickness of the barrel tube or receiver cross section or the kind of work the part does so he can leave you with the proper hardness and surface finish.
He'll know when to tell you to forget it and join the parts in a different fashion.


The guy I just described is most likely to be either a very successful bicycle framebuilder,
or a medical/biotech/refinery/process piping welder (and a very good one at that), an old boilermaker who's been around for a while...
You want welders who clearly understand the grave nature of liability and their responsibility as a welder. Guys who regularly walk away from their last job knowing someone's life is at risk if the work they just did fails -- and sleep well at night knowing it won't.

And you're not going to be able to walk into the shop were the 'tig guy' who's going to be doing the welding on your gun just pulled a couple of feet of wire off the spool out of the mig gun.
There's a lot of different welding wire to choose from out there. For instance I have wire here that cools to the hardness of the tip of a drill bit or saw blade, I use that wire for cutter repairs. There are countless other welding rod alloys with countless different properties.
He's not going to listen to a thing you have to say about what you think he needs to do while welding up your --

Exactly what is it you need welded?



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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dale
.333 member


Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 341
Loc: logan W.V.
Re: questions for Tinker [Re: tinker]
      #109422 - 10/07/08 05:38 PM

Tinker,

Your answer makes me glad I ask you. I guess I was asking "how you do you fly a plane" :^) What I'd like or love would be the ablility to weld the joint at the bbls and monoblock and be able to draw-file down the joint to invisible. Also, to leave a beveled edge on the breech end of the bbls. to weld up and dress down so the seems at the breeh face would be as close to invisible as possible and not worry about damaging the chamber or burning out into the sideclips or the excessive heat damaging any of the joints in the monoblock.
one monoblock had a couple of deep but very small pits we had to leave because I was afraid he would burn a larger place trying to fill them.


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: questions for Tinker [Re: dale]
      #109424 - 10/07/08 06:37 PM

Dale-


The work you're talking about isn't work for a welding machine. It's a job for a torch or a 'hearth furnace'
The proper joining method is hard silver soldering. The actual alloy and flux needed for the job depends on the materials being joined, the clearances, and the stress that will be applied to the joints.

The real work is in the absolutely perfect fitting of the pieces to be joined.
It's important to understand the strengths and limitations of the brazing alloys you'll be using, the clearances needed for them to work properly, the heat range you'll need to work at -- which is directly relative to the properties of the alloys and properties of the parent materials. You'll need to choose exactly the right flux for the job, and you'll need experience working with the combination of parent materials, sections of material, nature of the joint you'll be attempting to make, flow characteristics of the silver solder or brazing alloy you'd have chosen, and appearance and behaviour of the flux you've chosen inside the working temperature of the combination of materials and expendables you're joining in the weldment, as is often the case, your flux may be your only temperature indicator during the process.

To put it simply, you really need to know your stuff, soup to nuts, all through the process.

A lumps-to-barrel-to-barrel-to-quarter rib joint is no place for a tig weld.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: questions for Tinker [Re: dale]
      #109429 - 10/07/08 08:24 PM

Dale,
Tinker is right in his advice about welding the tubes to the monoblock, this is not the place to weld. Welding on the barrels can cause scaling inside the barrels and cause the monoblock to become brittle. There would be no right way to re- heat treat the barrels/mono. after welding. Proper solder jointing will be more than strong enough. If you want an almost invisable joint you can try what Mr. Ellis Brown suggested in his second edition and leave the barrel shoulders just a little high and peen them after soldering so as to close the gap, or you can do what I do and lap the joints together before soldering. That will make the joint almost invisable. If you want the details, send me a PM. Bob H.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27316
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: questions for Tinker [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #109432 - 10/07/08 09:39 PM

When using solder, a 1 mil joint gives the best strength. That's a .001" joint, I believe, or perhaps a bit tighter. This is for high temp silver solder, which requires slightly less heat than welding.

Of course the English doubles are soft soldered, perhaps 50/50, tin to lead. Low temp non-lead solder with 5% silver might to be best to use - don't know that for sure in this application. It's easy flowing charateristics would be nice, though, but one must be very careful not to overhead as with any solder and 'tin' both contacting surfaces properly, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: questions for Tinker [Re: DarylS]
      #109456 - 11/07/08 05:15 AM

Daryl-

There are scores and scores of silver solder alloys.

For the rest of you, I'm speaking of high temperature *brazing* type silver solder, not the stuff you sweat your copper pipes together with during the hot water heater installation.

You'll see flow points from 1125F on up to the high 1700F range. The *ideal* clearance for each and any engineered silver solder product will be clearly outlined in the manufacturer's data sheet.
Some alloys will work best with .001", some will want more clearance for maximum strength, it's in the tech sheet for each brand and alloy.

One of the great things about there being so many different choices in flow point temperature is that the builder can choose an ultra high strength, high temp alloy for assembling the components of the lumps and 'monoblock', or shoe lumps, or dovetail lumps -- or whatever process he chooses, allowing for a series of construction where the 'next step' won't upset the 'last step' in the process.

Furthermore, if one is using 'monoblock' (sawn-off barrels at the chambers) method, absolutely perfect and perpendicular facing of the block-face to the bore and threads is easy if done in the same lathe or mill setup.

Just as well, the barrel-blanks can just as easily be *absolutely perfectly* faced perpendicular to the journal and threads.

If properly tinned, prepped and cleaned
(tin them in the lathe directly following the turning/threading process before tearing the setup down, then chase-off all but about .001 or .002" of the tinning)
then assembled with proper flux, the builder can use much lower melting, *not brazing* solder like 'force 44' from brownells and 'screw them tight as all get-out' and then get them up to working temperature to flow.

With perfectly perpendicularly faced barrels and block journals, peening and careful striking followed by good old fashioned rust black will net you the closest thing to 'invisible' results as you're going to get.

I've heard of guys going in there with a tig welder to blend the joint.
If I were tasked with that job I'd lightly bevel the block journals and the barrels (we're talking micro here).
I'd either turn or draw (on a shaper) strips of the barrel material to use as 'welding wire' for the operation.
The process would resemble fusion welding, but with a tad of filler so that it could be 'struck down' to the contour of the work.
I wouldn't suggest this for a couple of reasons.
1 - it'd be important to anneal the area of the fusion welds in order to assure they wouldn't crack later from the repeated stress of the gun or rifle firing, and that the temperature of that annealing would likely upset (boil) the solder in the barrel to block joint, also likely flow whatever hard solder there is in the chamber/lumps/quarterrib joint
2 - the contours of the barrels and chambers would have to be 99++% finished before the joining process was started - in that you could only do very, very minimal barrel striking at the tig welded joint as not to file completely through it while profiling the barrels later on.

Hope that makes sense.
Just machine them perfectly, screw them in and solder, then peen and strike for an 'invisible' finish.
You won't need solder 'tween the faces' of the chambers and the barrels. The solder will ideally already be in there from a properly done tinning joint in the first place.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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dale
.333 member


Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 341
Loc: logan W.V.
Re: questions for Tinker [Re: tinker]
      #109497 - 11/07/08 06:06 PM

Tinker,

Thanks for your time and such an excellent answer. I was under the impression from different welders that "tig" was the new great miracle weld of super low heat and tremendous strength that was just the ticket for what I wanted. You have saved me hours and hours of stress and screwups. :^) A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. :^)
thanks again


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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: questions for Tinker [Re: dale]
      #109500 - 11/07/08 06:50 PM

Dale-


Compared to the wire-feed 'mig' process, tig is the old fashioned way!
It has it's place, but it's important to consider the temperatures needed to get that steel to flow.
the limited heat affected zone of the tig process can be a liability, depending on what the parent materials are.

Tradition has low temp solder, high temp silver, and bronze based brazing alloys the joint fillers of choice around gun breeches and barrels -- all for good reasons!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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