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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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canvasback
.224 member


Reged: 08/07/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Ontario, Canada
What gauge shotgun to use for DR conversion
      #109299 - 09/07/08 09:01 AM

Hi everyone

Just discovered Nitro Express and love it. I am a SxS shotgun fan and am considering, with my gunsmith, a DR built from a shotgun action.

The shotgun I am considering using is an H.Pieper (Belgian)12 gauge sidelock. The original design uses a patented monoblock and has a couple of damascus tubes. The tubes are so-so, the stock is a disaster but the action looks pretty good to me. It's circa 1895. It needs a serious restoration but my interest in DR's has lead me to believe it might be a better expenditure to convert it to a DR than to restore something that won't ever be worth much anyway (not that I'm in it for profit).

I've noticed as I've read the threads on here that 12, 16 and 20 gauge actions have all been used, it sounds like, successfully. I got the following note from my gunsmith about 12 gauge conversions and would be interested in any comments.

"Most 470 nitro double rifles are built around a beefed up 20gauge frame. The firing pin spacing will ultimately tell us what the gun will weigh. If we were to use a 12 gauge, the firing pin spacing would necessitate using a pair of barrels which would be very thick walled, therefore the overall weight of the gun would be excessive for anything under 577 Nitro Express. Or we would have to use very tapered barrels with wide ribs, but then it would look odd. And as we use smaller calibers, then the wall thickness increases which increases the weight. Nobody needs to be carrying around a 16lb 375."

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
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Re: What gauge shotgun to use for DR conversion [Re: canvasback]
      #109303 - 09/07/08 09:50 AM

I can't agree. My 450#2 conversion is on a 12G action and weighs 11 1/4lb.

I would be very cautious of using a circa 1895 gun for a 470NE conversion, for metalurgical reasons.

It would perhaps make a nice 577BPE conversion 577 21/2 etc.

Respectfully by the time you have done this and restocked it to a good standard from scratch, you can buy a double. (A 470NE Manton boxlock sold at Holts in june for $ 6000.00.) You will not get away lighter than this for a good conversion and when it is done it still will be worth next to nothing except to you.

Regards

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canvasback
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Reged: 08/07/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: What gauge shotgun to use for DR conversion [Re: Bramble]
      #109306 - 09/07/08 12:08 PM

Bramble, thanks for your post and your suggestion for caution is noted.

Perhaps I wasn't clear while mentioning the financial aspect....I know their worth is really only the value to me. It's just if I'm going to spend the money, I have plenty of 12 bores....I'd like to try something a bit different.

Also, I live in Canada, home to ridiculous gun control laws, a tiny assortment of double rifles on the pre-owned market and import laws that drive up the hammer price even more than the auctioneer.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: What gauge shotgun to use for DR conversion [Re: canvasback]
      #109309 - 09/07/08 12:18 PM

I think Bramble's suggestion of a .577 2 3/4" BPE should be considered. You are on the wrong track if you go for a nitro express cartridge. Go for a large bore black powder round and be amazed with what it will do. You could even consider a .500 3" BPE - a wonderful round.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
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Re: What gauge shotgun to use for DR conversion [Re: CptCurl]
      #109310 - 09/07/08 12:20 PM

By the way, canvasback, please excuse my bad manners. I first should have welcomed you into our community. NE.com is a wonderful place to discuss fine firearms. Please join in often. You will make many friends here.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Bramble
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Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: What gauge shotgun to use for DR conversion [Re: CptCurl]
      #109328 - 09/07/08 03:25 PM

Thanks Curl

and my bad manners as well. Welcome.

I like conversions as well Canvasback, so it is not predudice about them.
I understand what you say about your gun laws (I live in the peoples rupublic of "New Labour" )

However if you are going to get a gunsmith to do the majority of this work then it will cost the earth. At say $60 an hour you will be looking at $12,000. Even with import duties etc etc You can buy a classic double for that sort of money and it will have residule value, also you will be doing a national service for Canada by putting another double into circulation at home :-)

Heavens for that price I'll buy you one here and fly it over for you !

Best Regards

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Birdhunter50
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Re: What gauge shotgun to use for DR conversion [Re: Bramble]
      #109347 - 09/07/08 10:43 PM

Canvasback,
Welcome to this forum from myself and all the rest of us. First off, before you decide to convert your gun, we need to know what kind of lockup it has. Does it have a Greener crossbolt, or does it have a hidden third fastner? Those are two points that need to be considered before making your decision. An 1895 era gun is not the best choice for many of the larger calibers, but you could do a lower powered conversion on it if it meets certain other criteria. One thing to consider is that if you monoblock this action and insert new sleeved barrels into it, the monoblock will look somewhat different than the barrels when the whole thing is reblued. If you put full size liners through the existing barrels, you will have the same damascus look but it will mount and swing like an 8 foot 2X6.
Action size does determine the weight of the finished product to some small extent, BUT, your gunsmith should be able to adjust that a lot by the thickness of the barrel profiles. If the barrels are thinly profiled, then a HOLLOW wide rib might be called for. 12 gauges are not just good for 500 Nitro Express caliber sizes. I have built 45-70 conversions on 12 and 20 gauge frames both. The lightest 45-70 on a 12 gauge frame weighed 7 pounds, but it had lightly profiled, short,(20 inch) barrels. I have also done a 20 gauge bore rifle on a 12 ga. frame that weighed less than 8 pounds with 24 inch barrels.
If you are serious about doing a conversion, buy the book "Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions" by W. Ellis Brown. Read it twice, then understand that his book is just the starting point, you will still have to do a lot more research. Stay in the low intensity cartridge list.
Once you get a good idea of what is needed, then you will be better prepaired to make your decision. If you do go ahead, the book will make an excellent guidebook to guide you along the way, and if you decide to drop the whole idea, you will still have the book to read or resell.
Books are cheap, double rifles are not. Good Luck with your project. Bob H.

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canvasback
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Reged: 08/07/08
Posts: 6
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Re: What gauge shotgun to use for DR conversion [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #109474 - 11/07/08 09:09 AM

I just wanted to say thanks to all those who welcomed me and offered their insight and knowledge. I am considering the information and as well am taking Birdhunter50's suggestion and have ordered the Ellis Brown book.

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