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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Pressure conversion chart
      #107022 - 09/06/08 03:20 AM

Hello to everyone,
This is my first post but I have been reading them for some time. This is more than just an off the cuff question. I think it would be important to many who visit here. The question is, is there any table that you guys know of that lists conversions for the various methods of measuring pressure? As in LUP,CUP,PSI,Tonns,and Long Tonns measurements.


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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Pressure conversion chart [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #107024 - 09/06/08 03:59 AM

No, and the reason is that the measurement is not a "snapshot" pressure observation. By snapshot, I mean an instantaneous measurement. For example, CUP uses a copper slug that is compressed over the duration of the pressure event. It is not possible to convert to PSI because the pressure was never measured. The effects of pressure over a period of time caused the copper slug to be deformed, but the pressure is not known and cannot be inferred from measuring the slug.

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Pressure conversion chart [Re: Tatume]
      #107027 - 09/06/08 04:22 AM

You don't think the copper crusher slug was deformed to match the highest pressure achieved? I was told that that was how they used to determine the highest pressure reached by any given load. I guess I must have missed something. Bob

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Tatume
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Re: Pressure conversion chart [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #107030 - 09/06/08 05:00 AM

Copper crusher measurements are comparable only to other copper crusher measurements. For example, if you prepare two loads and fire them in a gun drilled for CUP measurements, then you can say that one load generated more stress (over the duration of the event) than the other. More importantly, once you have established what is a "safe" CUP for that particular cartridge, you can then say a load generates more or less than that safe level of CUP.

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Pressure conversion chart [Re: Tatume]
      #107034 - 09/06/08 05:18 AM

Tatume,
Someplace I read that the British Proof house had figured out how to corralate these different measuring system through the use of Piezo Elecrtic measuring equiptment.(I think it was in a back issue of the Double Gun Journal), but I don't remeber all the details or the issue number.


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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Pressure conversion chart [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #107036 - 09/06/08 05:55 AM

You didn't ask about correlation. Any two sets of data can be correlated, but that doesn’t mean that one can be converted to the other, nor does it mean that the correlation is evidence of a cause-and-effect relationship.

For example, I can (and have) correlated rainfall and water temperature in Chesapeake Bay, Virginia. There is a significant inverse relationship. Rain usually, but not always, depresses water temperature in the Bay. In this example there is a cause-and-effect relationship, but it is not perfect, nor is it consistent.

Landings of the Pacific fish anchoveta (in Chile) correlate significantly with the wholesale price of menhaden in Virginia. There is no cause-and-effect relationship. Rather, a third factor (ENSO) jointly influences both.

Certainly, one would expect that higher pressure would result in greater deformation of a copper crusher slug. There will be a significant correlation between the two. That does not mean that one can be reliably converted to the other. It is for this reason that SAAMI now supplies both CUP and PSI standards for the cartridges it oversees.


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Pressure conversion chart [Re: Tatume]
      #107055 - 09/06/08 09:32 AM

The words below are from a post by 2-piper on the DoubleGun BBS some time ago. I would prefer to have posted the link but that board has a short longevity before threads are vaporised. This is reproduced here without 2-piper's permission, but he posted it on DoubleGun without reservation, so I trust he would be OK with its reappearance here.

Note that it refers to pressure in the shotgun range.

For the information of all:

"Note that in sir Gerald Burrard's work "The Modern Shotgun" Appendix III was a work on "The Piezoelectric Pressure Gauge and it's Application to the Measurement of Pressure in Shotguns" by A Watson, B.Sc., F.Inst.P. In this work he discusses the mounting of a piezoelectric (P) gauge & a lead crusher (L) gauge on opposite sides of a pressure bbl, both @ exactly 1.0" from breech giving simultaneous readings of the same shot. After a careful study of these readings the following was stated; "Over the range of pressures usually encountered at the one inch position in shotguns the reaings given by the two gauges are related by the equation; P=1.5L(tons)-.5tons"
These pressures are all given in tons & are the British Long Ton @2240lbs. Working this formula gives the following with all converted to equivelent piezoelectric psi;
3 tons (6,720) = 8,960psi
3¼ tons (7,280) = 9,800psi
3½ tons (7,840) = 10,640psi
4 tons (8,960) = 12,320psi
Note the similarity of these conversions to the pressures given in the 1954 Rules of Proof per the very excellent previous post.

Per the 1954 Rules of Proof, here are the equivalent service pressure values:
3 tons--8,938 psi
3 1/4 tons--9,682 psi
3 1/2 tons--10,427 psi
4 tons--11,917 psi

Also note this conversion is applicable "Only" to those 1.0" pressures in the normal range of shotgun loads. They are also only applicable to those pressures recorded under the British Crusher system. Other crusher systems would likely be similar, but not necessarily exact. Piezoelectric psi readings are generally considered to be "Exact" & will almost always be higher than crusher pressures. There "May" be a few instances where time lag of the crusher is so low the two give essentially equal readings.
Also "Nota Bene" the difference in the two systems over this limited range varies from 1ton (2240psi) to 1½ton (3360psi). The use of the oft stated 1,000 lbs would thus seem to be useless & in some cases could prove dangerous.
"

PS: apparently I failed to save the "very excellent previous post"! Sorry.....

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Pressure conversion chart [Re: Marrakai]
      #107062 - 09/06/08 11:07 AM

Marrakai,
Thanks for your input, this may be what I read about and couldn't come up with. I also appreciated your help when I was doing my first rifle conversion, it turned out better than expected. I could not have come up with a gun as nice as it is without your kind advice. Bob H.


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