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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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9.3x57
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India/Pak/9.3x62???????
      #106454 - 01/06/08 11:27 PM

How common was the 9.3x62 cartridge in what used to be British India, now including of course Pakistan and Bangladesh?

How about some history of its use; where, what rifles, what game, how popular, ammo availability, hunting anecdotes, etc.

Finally, are any still floating around over there?

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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88MauSporter
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #106465 - 02/06/08 04:58 AM

Good question! I always associated the 9.3x62 with former German East and Central Africa influence or the Boers decent of SA. I would assume Pakistan and other middle eastern countries and territories would have had these rifles brought in for sporting purposes.
I look for some informed history as well.

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"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter


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Nakihunter
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #106505 - 02/06/08 03:18 PM

I had never heard of the 9.3X62 in India. Not to say that there aren't any around.

My understanding was that the rifles found in India were mostly of British origin. Until the 1940s this was almost exclusively the case. The Mausers & Mannlichers were imported by the British firms into India. But the common calibers were 256MS, 6.5X54MS, 275 / 7X57, 315 / 8X57, 303, 318 WR, 9.5X57MS, 375H&H and the medium bore doubles of British origin. I have heard of original German Mausers but these were brought in by British officers & Tea Planters. I have also heard of the odd drilling and some American rifles & calibers such as the 405 Win, 32-40 etc. The American calibers become more common after WW2. The Belgian FN also started coming in. My dad had an FN 10.75X68.

Lyon & Lyon in Calcutta may be able to throw some light on this subject.

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tophet1
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #106513 - 02/06/08 07:54 PM

Dutch East India (Indonesia)and also German turn of the century PNG maybe the closest a 9.3 got to the sub continent but, I don't know.

I can only assume that colonists or public ervants in these area of the world who had also served in Africa may well have taken their personal rifles with them. I also don't know what size game would have been available to the Sportsman in those countries. Water Buffalo and possibly Tiger ?


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9.3x57
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: tophet1]
      #106520 - 02/06/08 09:54 PM

Thanks Gents.

I knew the 9.3x62 was not a popular caliber, but wondered if there was a well-known {to Indians} area where they were more common. Naki, it was your mention of your Dad's 10.75, that made me curious as to other "metric" calibers.

Another question for the other side of the coin...

In pre-48 India, what was THE MOST COMMON, overall sporting caliber?

I'll toss a guess and say the .318 WR?

Wasn't the .303 still banned all the way until Independence?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #106544 - 03/06/08 06:15 AM

the 10,75 x68 was allways in use and is till this days. was in contakt with an indian hunter some years ago. he was looking for 10,75 ammunition or components.
also remember a winchester 95 in 405 win with manton/calcutta on the barrel.
take a look into the 1925 manton catalog: original 430 mauser(10,75x68) 220 Rs.

425 westley richards 850 Rs.

404 vicker's 675 Rs.

416 rigby 1275 Rs.

they are making new enfield sporter today in india for a cartridge called(I believe).315 which is in fact the old 8x50R austrian mannlicher. have to look in the old kynoch cartridge list where this round have the same odd designation IIRC.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: lancaster]
      #106582 - 03/06/08 06:17 PM

.350 Rigby Magnum may have been a close equivalent if used in India?

I know of one gentleman whom used his .275 Rigby and .350 Rigby Magnum in India extensively.

Don't forget the British .360's and the variations as well.

--------------------
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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mehulkamdar
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #106622 - 04/06/08 07:02 AM

There are metric calibre rifles in the former Portuguese and French administered parts of India. Some years ago, a friend found a 9.3x62 which he passed over because he could not find ammunition for it. I also know of Brno 7x64s and other oddities for India coming up on sale from time to time. Other than the 7x57, 8x57, 6.5x54 and rimmed Mannlicher 6.5 etc

The one bolt action round that was and remains very popular in India is the superb 30-06. For a long time, the NRAI (a bunch of anti gun and shooting sports morons whom I have had several battles with in the Indian press since the 1980s) offered 30-06 ammunition from Sellier and Bellot and others along with 22 rimfire match ammunition simply because many of their members owned (and continue to own) 30-06s. I have also heard rumours about the Indian Ordnance Factories offering new 30-06 rifles for some years but have not seen any or heard about their being sold in India yet. But then, I have been away for five years.

I have posted elsewhere on these forums a picture of a 9.3x62 Mauser rifle owned by a friend in Pakistan over four generations and when we take Pakistan as a territory that was formerly administered along with India by the British, it is clear that this round was available there. The 10.75x68 was sold by the British as the 423 Mauser and I have seen rifles so marked in India on several occasions from Cogswell and Harrison and others. I think it was more popular because it was available in what would be a more familiar inch designation.

Good hunting, gentlemen!

--------------------
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Nakihunter
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #106663 - 04/06/08 05:56 PM

The caliber called 315 in India is the 8X57. The Indian ordnance factory used to refurbish military Mauser 98 rifles with maple stocks and sell them as sporters. I have seen their catalogue in the 1970's. The reputation of the workmanship & barrel quality was not very good.

To answer 9ThreeXFifty7's question, without doubt the most popular sporting caliber was 12 bore - whether with bird shot, SGs, LGs or Ball. I have seen old Eley paper cartridges with a variety of slugs.

* Simple round ball that rattled in the case with a cardboard wad under the roll crimp - the wad looked like a washer as it had a .25 inch hole in the middle!
* Lethal ball - a strange looking slug made of 4 pieces of lead that were soldered together - the solder joint stood proud. This was supposed to break up within the animal & create a larger wound channel.
* Conical ball - like a foster slug but no wanes on the side.
* Another strange looking slug (I don't remember what it was called) that was a lead tube with wanes on the side. This was not a hollow point - it had a hole right through it & was reputed to be explosive.

I have no idea what the most popular rifle caliber in India was before 1947. I can't even begin to guess!!

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lancaster
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #106671 - 04/06/08 08:51 PM

this one







--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #106673 - 04/06/08 09:00 PM

Quote:

The caliber called 315 in India is the 8X57. The Indian ordnance factory used to refurbish military Mauser 98 rifles with maple stocks and sell them as sporters. I have seen their catalogue in the 1970's. The reputation of the workmanship & barrel quality was not very good.






I was thinking that you are not rigth when looking in the 1936 ICI Kynoxch list



but it depend on the metric designation they take. kynoch call the 8x57 Mauser: 7,9 from 7,92x57 IS but manton in the 1925 list call it 8mm mauser and we have a .315 mauser

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: lancaster]
      #106675 - 04/06/08 09:13 PM

Manton 1925



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: lancaster]
      #106676 - 04/06/08 09:18 PM

I was just about to suggest a Paradox !! best, Mike

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Nakihunter
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: lancaster]
      #106759 - 05/06/08 09:56 AM

Lancaster, Thanks for all the info. Those pictures are great. I do not see one with the lead "tube with wanes" type slug. That was the strangest one that I have seen.

The 8mm bullet with 323 diameter is the 315 BORE

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rigbymauser
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #106828 - 06/06/08 05:21 AM

In some of the huntingbooks I have regarding "India"...275Rigby, 318 Westley Richards, 303British are most representent in the boltaction scene. I haven`t yet read anything on german sporting rounds....but ofcouse they have been there.
In and book called "Sport & travel in the far east"(1910) the author hunts in Baltistan, malaysia, China and Kashmire using a singleshot 32-40 and a double H&H 500-450 Nitro Ex.


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9.3x57
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #106868 - 06/06/08 02:24 PM

Very interesting stuff, guys!

I'd love to see the new .315!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #106874 - 06/06/08 03:58 PM

Gentlemen

Thanks this has been a refreshing topic for read.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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lancaster
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #106880 - 06/06/08 07:08 PM

Quote:

Very interesting stuff, guys!

I'd love to see the new .315!




this indian hunting rifle in .315 - in fact 8x50 R Mannlicher - is build I believe from indian ordannaz factory. some time ago I was on the website but cant find it again. its a lee-enfield sporter of poor quality what I have read but when available and cheap , with a little work maybe a just for fun rifle. havn't meet a cartridge collector till now with one of this .315 sporting ammunition.
indian hunting and gun law seems to have lot of problems for the people who have to live with it.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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peter
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: lancaster]
      #106889 - 06/06/08 09:02 PM

lancaster

would it be allright if i copyed those pictures over to the paradox section ?, we need them there on file.

best regards

peter


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9.3x57
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: peter]
      #106897 - 06/06/08 10:52 PM

Lancaster, I wonder if the reason the 8x50R is the intended round for the Sporter you mention is that such a caliber would clean up existing .303 chambers/barrels nicely AND it would eliminate the use of military ammo.

A rebore in 8mm would/should allow a smooth finish and eliminate all traces of the original boring, assuming the .303 barrel wasn't grossly overbored in the first place, a 8x50R chambering reamer would clean up the .303 chamber AND probably the round would feed fairly well {??} from unmodified .303 mags.

The military ammo issue might still be a problem as much military .303 has been made in recent years in India, and may still be.

Anyway, it's an idea.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #106925 - 07/06/08 02:49 AM

yes, the military ammo issue is maybe the biggest point that they choose the 8x50R. since hirtenberger have finish 8x50R sporting ammo produktion around 1990 its a reloading only round. and I doubt that any old military ammo is around in india. so they have a round like the old 12/14 greener police gun cartridge. nobody can get it, only from licensed dealers.
seems to be that it work without problems in the lee enfield action and magazin.

finaly find it:



Specifications
1. Calibre
.315"/8 mm
2. Magazine
Box type, capacity 5 cartridges
3. Barrel Length
About 25.20"/64 8mm
4. Lenght of Rifle
44"/1117 mm approx
5. Wt. of Rifle
Approximately 7lbs. 6Ozs/3.34 Kgs
6. Safety
On left rear end of receiver (Body)
7. Range
275 Mtrs
8. Ammunition
S.A. Ball 8 mm/.315" Sporting available with 244 grain soft nose bullet
9. Telescope
Optional

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (07/06/08 03:24 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: lancaster]
      #106926 - 07/06/08 02:55 AM

Quote:


take a look into the 1925 manton catalog: original 430 mauser(10,75x68) 220 Rs.

425 westley richards 850 Rs.

404 vicker's 675 Rs.

416 rigby 1275 Rs.






can some of the indian gentleman's explain what 220 -1275 Rs. for the common indian's around 1925 mean. how much money was it in this day's?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Nakihunter
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: lancaster]
      #106949 - 07/06/08 10:34 AM

In 1925, Rs 220 was a LOT of money. Just to give you a comparison - a Harrington & Richardson 12 gauge single barrel shotgun cost about Rs25 at that time. A Webley single barrel cost about Rs35 & a Webley double cost cost about Rs 100.

In 1925 Rs 220 was about GBP 175 (if my calculation is correct at an exchange rate of 1 shilling 4 pence.)

"In 1899, the parity of the Indian rupee was set at 1 shilling 4 pence. This new parity was kept until 1927, if one excludes an attempt in 1919 to once again lift the rupee to 2 shillings. The real value of the rupee was therefore tied to the Pound Sterling. ........In April 1925, the Pound was redefined on the basis of the gold parity of 1816, 7.32 grams of fine gold. On September 20, 1931 Great Britain abandoned the gold standard and the Pound lost 30% of its worth in 1931 and almost 40% in 1934! ......In international currency of the Indian Ocean, the Indian rupee was still used from Burma to Balouchistan, from Nepal to Ceylon, from Iraq to Zanzibar and from the Maldives to Mauritius. Its instability, because of its ties to silver and the Pound Sterling, was compensated by the stability of a certain weight of silver. The rupee was quite valued by the populations of these regions. Confronted with the currency problems already described, the silver rupee was not produced from 1923 and 1939. In 1940, there was a desire to recommence the production of the rupee. The rupees were produced in 1938 and 1939 in the former manner, but at the end of 1940, if the weights are the same, the rupees stands at 500/1000 of silver. The production in 1947 was in nickel! The production from half rupees and quarter rupees was not interrupted. In 1940 their title of silver stayed at 500/1000 and in 1946 these coins were in nickel. Mauritius did not have silver rupees from 1934 to 1938. These rupees weighed 11.66 but with the title of 916/1000 instead of 917/1000. The Seychelles transfered to producing a silver rupee in 1938 with a weight of 11.66 grams but a title of 500/1000. In India one rupee notes were circulated. ......If the parity of the Indian rupee was set at 1 shilling six pence, we should mention that the Pound Sterling was set at 3.58 grams of fine gold in 1946 to fall to 2.49 grams of fine gold in 1949. "

Read the full article for fascinating background info http://www.collectornetwork.com/articles/article_rupee.php.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.


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Post deleted by NitroX [Re: Nakihunter]
      #107094 - 09/06/08 11:31 PM



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dale
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Re: India/Pak/9.3x62??????? [Re: ]
      #107263 - 12/06/08 02:44 PM

Thanks to all for a super thread.

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