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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Thoughts
      #106231 - 28/05/08 06:22 PM

Anyone out there tried one of these ??

http://www.gunsamerica.com/931177567/Gun...Rifle.htm?wl=1#

Looks nice.
best
Mike

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93mouse
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Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 745
Loc: Slovenia
Re: Thoughts [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #106236 - 28/05/08 07:10 PM

Hi Mike - a friend of mine owns one in .375 H&H Fl. - see:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=87174&an=0&page=1#Post87174

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dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Thoughts [Re: 93mouse]
      #106246 - 28/05/08 10:16 PM

Spanish built, nicely built and finished, and now a company sadly out of business. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Thoughts [Re: dnovo]
      #106247 - 28/05/08 11:15 PM

Hmmm, I didn't know the company had gone pear shaped ! rgds, Mike

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peter
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Re: Thoughts [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #106250 - 29/05/08 12:38 AM

it has, but they made really nice guns, i got one in a 12 gauge detach. sidelock, the gun handles like a british gun.

peter

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Thoughts [Re: peter]
      #106260 - 29/05/08 03:51 AM

Value for money wise a No.1 AYA s/s shotgun, or any of the top Spanish makers,is damn nigh impossible to beat, 85% of an English best for 20% of the money and if you move up to the highest grade, a No.1 deluxe (actually finished, checkered and engraved in the UK) you have a gun that would be as good as an English best to anybody but an expert. Can't knock it. best, Mike

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alexbeer
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Reged: 10/04/08
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Re: Thoughts [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #106293 - 29/05/08 04:14 PM

Hello gentlemen

Quote:

85% of an English best



What makes an English best?

Is that an actual grade?

Thanks,
Laura
alexbeer.com

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Details matter!

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peter
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Re: Thoughts [Re: alexbeer]
      #106296 - 29/05/08 06:10 PM

laura

the term london best, or best gun, is a term that the english houses use for the top of the line guns. where fit, finish, engraving and wood are all the very best.
it is usually in there records if it is a best gun, and they are allways a thing to behold, even after 100 years of abuse and hard use, you can feel the quality of the gun and the work that went into it.

others will be able to explain better, but that was short and simple from me.

best regards

peter

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Thoughts [Re: alexbeer]
      #106297 - 29/05/08 06:11 PM

If you are discussing a traditional S/S game gun I think most people Laura would agree that Holland, Purdey, Boss and Westley produce the best of their kind though in O/U format many would say a couple of the Italian makers are as good, (or better ?!) he said ducking beneath a parapet
best
Mike

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dnovo
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Re: Thoughts [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #106308 - 29/05/08 10:28 PM

Leave room for me behind that parapet. The O/U has never been the strong point of the British mfgs. The Italian and the German/Austrian tradition of making the O/U the focus of their light to medium-heavy game rifles (in modern times, usually stopping at the justly well-regarded 9.3X74R, which will suffice for any Continental and most North American/African game short of the Big Five or a Grizzly) has resulted in what I believe are the 'best guns' in the O/U arena. Consider the Merkel 323, now brought into the US on special order only, and in a pre-war setting, with some of the finest wood and engraving one can find. Several of the Suhl-built pre-war guns were the match of anything 'best' built in Great Britian. Today, that tradition continues with Peter Hofer, etc offering O/Us that are truly 'best guns' -- and priced accordingly.

Italy? Beretta's SO series, custom built at the higher end, are built to the highest standards in a shop that resembles Purdey and H&H with a tradition and full support of a family and a company that started building guns in the 1600s. Ferlib and other small Italian shops turn out superb and indisputable 'best guns,' a often engraved by Creative Arts (one of the premier engraving concerns in the world and also the 'hand' behind the engraving of my SXS Beretta 455-EELL in 416 and my Ferlib round action hammer gun in 9.3X74R) or one of the other Italian engravers who are now at the top of that food chain.

I agree that the SXS British best guns from the 1890s through the beginning of WWII are in a class by themselves and command respect and prices accordingly. I also very respectfully submit that today, even in SXS they are challenged by a number of like-priced builders on the Continent who are too well known to be listed here but who turn out a SXS DR that will match that built in Great Britain today when placed side by side and we remove the 'its the name' factor.

O/Us? I have stated my thoughts above and will now jump behind the parapet with Mike -- if he will have me there.

Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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peter
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Re: Thoughts [Re: dnovo]
      #106312 - 29/05/08 11:16 PM

you forgot to paint a large bullseye on the parapet, for all of us anglophilians to use as target practise.

peter

Edited by peter (29/05/08 11:16 PM)

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dnovo
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Re: Thoughts [Re: peter]
      #106321 - 30/05/08 01:28 AM

Better on the parapet than on my forehead. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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peter
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Re: Thoughts [Re: dnovo]
      #106324 - 30/05/08 03:54 AM

Quote:

Better on the parapet than on my forehead. Dave


true dave

back to the subject at hand, yes some of the italien guns deserve the term best guns but i have never see a genuine best gun in O/U mostly because a true best gun has chopperlump barrels and the O/U are mostly monoblocks. so yes they italiens and the spanish make really nice guns, but few best guns as it is with the big houses as well.

just my 0.02$

peter

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Thoughts [Re: peter]
      #106331 - 30/05/08 07:07 AM

The best O/U guns (both shotguns and rifles) do use demi-bloc barrels. I even point out that the latest "SO" grade Beretta now sports demi-bloc barrels instead of the monobloc barrels so heartily embraced by Beretta at all levels prior.

On the other hand, the 300 series Merkels, which formerly used demi-bloc barrels are now seen in monobloc configuration. Go figure!

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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450_366
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Re: Thoughts [Re: alexbeer]
      #106335 - 30/05/08 08:29 AM

Was not a best gun the best a specific manufactor could produce? And a london best the best that the well established london builders could build? So couldnt a best gun be the best that baikal could build also? (a baikal best or perhaps a baikal beast).

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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dnovo
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Re: Thoughts [Re: 450_366]
      #106337 - 30/05/08 08:40 AM

I don't think that 'best gun' necessarily really means 'best gun.' Chopper lumps, side locks, ???? My 476 Droplock WR is, IMHO and that of many others a 'best gun.' How can it be if it is not a sidelock? How can any Italian gun, no matter what it has or at what level it is built, be a 'best gun' which, by some definitions I have seen, must be made in Great Britain to qualify.

To me, a 'best gun' is any gun built to standards of fit, finish, quality of craftsmanship, and (in most intances, engraving) that are the equal of any other top of the line DR in current production. By that definition, a Baikal would not as it may be the best they do, but not as good as a 'best' from H&H or, for example, a custom Italian builder who turns out a DR with the same level of those qualities I mentioned above, SXS, O/U or Round Action. (Technically, is a Dickson or McNaughton a 'best?' I'd say so but not by some strict criteria.)

By the way, to go back to the beginning of this thread I own a Victor Sarasquetta in a 375 H&H. I paid a very modest price, and feel it is a superbly done and very handsome gun. Do I call it an H&H level best? Hell no. Is it a steal compared to one of those. Hell yes. If one comes up for sale would I turn my nose up at one? No. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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alexbeer
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Re: Thoughts [Re: dnovo]
      #106350 - 30/05/08 12:35 PM

Thank you gentlemen for your explanations.
Quote:

Today, that tradition continues with Peter Hofer, etc offering O/Us that are truly 'best guns' -- and priced accordingly.



What are "best gun" prices? What is priced accordingly?

Cheers,
Laura
alexbeer.com

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Details matter!

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cadet
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Re: Thoughts [Re: alexbeer]
      #106354 - 30/05/08 02:24 PM

"Best" is a standard of build and materials, rather than a price point. "Best" is the very finest of materials and workmanship embodied in a gun where price is no object; in a practical sense though, there may be anything like 500-1,000 skilled artisans' hours represented in a best; they are priced to at least reflect that.
"Best" often implies a hammerless sidelock ejector of British (often London) origin, in a style perfected in the last quarter of the 19th century, but a maker in any time and place who is sufficiently skilled and experienced who chooses to build a gun (or coordinate a number of specialist artisans in the the building of such a gun) to such perfect standards of materials, fit and finish - and design - can rightly claim to have built a "best".

A new best from one of the leading British makers may leave little change from GBP 50,000-100,000 if it is ordered cased with all the appropriate accessories.
RG

Edited by cadet (30/05/08 02:28 PM)

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alexbeer
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Re: Thoughts [Re: cadet]
      #106503 - 02/06/08 03:01 PM

Thanks Cadet!

So, is there a difference between a double that is totally hand built or CNC machined in the eyes of the beholder?
Laura
alexbeer.com

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Details matter!

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peter
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Re: Thoughts [Re: alexbeer]
      #106507 - 02/06/08 04:15 PM

laura

i dont remember wich one of the old builders said this:

"what determines a best gun is the last 3 strokes with the file."

this was said in regard to outsoursed parts and labor, the final fitting is allways whats counts.
H&H and Purdey uses cnc parts, they pretty much all do, it takes some of the grunt work away from the master builders, without compromicing the quality of the final build.

best regards

peter

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Paul
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Re: Thoughts [Re: peter]
      #106508 - 02/06/08 05:46 PM

Notwithstanding all the true and earnest explanations above, 'best' is also an advertiser's puff. I seem to remember that at one time, at least, Purdey made only one grade of shotgun, their Best. And I guess if Baikal made only one grade, it would also be their best.

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peter
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Re: Thoughts [Re: Paul]
      #106515 - 02/06/08 08:30 PM

Quote:

Notwithstanding all the true and earnest explanations above, 'best' is also an advertiser's puff. I seem to remember that at one time, at least, Purdey made only one grade of shotgun, their Best. And I guess if Baikal made only one grade, it would also be their best.



paul

it is boss that has the moniker "maker of best guns only".

allthough it might be the best that baikal can make, it wont be a best gun.(they have made some specials for the party top that came out really nice)

purdy has had several grades, as well as the others.

best regards

peter

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Thoughts [Re: peter]
      #106526 - 03/06/08 12:29 AM

Boss shouldn't be using that moniker anymore as they now sell another gun, a lower grade called the "Robertson". It is made in Birmingham and is by all accounts a nice gun. Boss brought it out to try to capture some of the market that the top Spanish makers had taken from the UK producers. I don't know how it is doing. Labour costs in the UK must be a factor. Mind you on a recent trip to London I wonder if it is now the most expensive city in the world ? best, Mike

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