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CapeGunner
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Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 19
Loc: New York-Hudson Valley-USA
What type of BP do you use?
      #105028 - 14/05/08 12:48 PM

I'm reluctant to ask such a basic question but here goes. I've found loading info for a 360 BPE 2 1/4' double rifle from the period it was made, circa 1882 or so. I don't have them with me but the quote was so many grains of BP for a given bullet weight but doesn't specify FFFg, FFg or whatever. I load my 45 and 50 cal muzzle loaders with FFFg and patched round ball. The double rifle is .366 caliber with a 200 grain bullet.Any suggestions? I have the loading dies on the way and have a supply of 200 grain lead and copper jacketed bullets ready to go. The copper jacketed ones are Hawk and the jacketa are annealed.

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: What type of BP do you use? [Re: CapeGunner]
      #105032 - 14/05/08 02:04 PM

Well it isn't that simple. There is FFg in Swiss, GOEX, Wano and Schuetzen just to name a few and they are not all equal. They also all have different burn characteristics.

Just like smokeless powder you are going to have experiment a bit to find what works. But that's half the fun of shooting these old guns.

Do some reasearch and see if you can identify the powder used and the velocities obtained. Then using the same grade powder buy a lb of several different brands and start testing and see if you can duplicate the load.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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bouldersmith
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 627
Loc: Boulder Colorado
Re: What type of BP do you use? [Re: DoubleD]
      #105078 - 14/05/08 10:19 PM

I can tell you what worked in my .360 2&7/16" bpe. I use goex express FFG dropped through a tube....as much as I can get in the case which is 60 grs and compressed about 3/16", topped with a thin card wad and the bullet seated directly on top. I am going to try adding a lube but have not needed to so far.
Steve

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: What type of BP do you use? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #105102 - 15/05/08 01:14 AM

Steve- you should get soem Schuetzen or Swiss, rather than the GOEX. One or the other of the noted powders should give you regulation, whereas it is normal with GOEX to require 20% more than the case will hold to make them shoot to the sights. I am merely repeating what I derived from Ros Seyfried's writing on the subject.
; From my own experiences with BP ctg. guns, your loading methods are just fine, although I tend to go a bit less compression when using real BP for accuracy's sake. With a good bullet, with good sized lube grooves, you can get away without a lube ball. If using a jacketed bullet, I'd try putting in a bit of lube - black powder lube - between bullet and wad.
: Use a punch mounted in your press for compressing the powder, not the bullet.
: If you cannot get Swiss or Schuetzen powder, try 3F GOEX.
Good luck.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
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Re: What type of BP do you use? [Re: CapeGunner]
      #105104 - 15/05/08 01:46 AM

I too use Swiss with good results. I use 3F in BP catridges other than bore rifles. I use 2f in the 12 to 8 bores 1 1/2 or courser in 7 to 4 bore

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by gatsby (15/05/08 02:34 AM)


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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
Loc: Denmark
Re: What type of BP do you use? [Re: gatsby]
      #105105 - 15/05/08 02:19 AM

I use 1.5 Fg Swiss for 10 bore DR.

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bouldersmith
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 627
Loc: Boulder Colorado
Re: What type of BP do you use? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #105108 - 15/05/08 04:03 AM

I can get Swiss, but the goex express is marketed as being comparable and designed for bp cartridge rifles. I traded a friend for a can to try and it works great, shoots to the sights with awesome groups. See the thread under double rifle photos titled "another little cutie". I use swiss in my round ball front stuffer and it id great stuff. I need to chrono my loads, but the fact is accuracy is amazing. I doubt I'll change much.
Steve

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com


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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
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Re: What type of BP do you use? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #105109 - 15/05/08 04:22 AM

The black powder target shooters I know swear by Swiss and won't touch anything else... Nothing first hand to add, sorry.

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Glenn_Fewless
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Reged: 08/05/08
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Re: What type of BP do you use? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #105114 - 15/05/08 06:28 AM

Gentlemens:

I am a competitive black powder cartridge rifle shooter, and have used the powders mentioned. There is a real difference in the burning characteristics of the different brands of powder. This could turn into a long saga of the histories of the manufacturers and such, but suffice it to say that the pecking order of powders is Swiss, Goex Express, Schuetzen, Goex. There are those who would swap the positions of Schuetzen and Goex.

The above order is also, not coincidentally, the order of the "hotness" of the powder. 50 grains of Swiss will yield greater velocity than 50 grains of Goex. This is one of the reasons that Swiss is used in the target games. The other is consistency. Unlike smokeless, black powder varies batch to batch in its density and burning qualities. This is because it is a mechanical mixture of ingredients, one of which is organic: the charcoal. The makers of Swiss seem to have the best handle on the quality of their powder and it is remarkably consistent. Even so, most competitors by powder by the case to avoid the load development required with a new lot. I suspect that Goex has a pretty good handle on their "Express" powder, but I have only used the powder from the original batch.


The fact is all the powders available are pretty good now. Goex hit a rough patch a number years back but seems to have things well under control now. All require slightly different loading techniques for success.

The idea of getting a double rifle to shoot is an intriguing one. With the single shot rifles we are just looking for accuracy and consistency with, generally speaking, as much velocity as we can get. With the double rifle there is the additional requirement of regulation. So besides loading for clean, consistent burning and accuracy, you need to achieve a specific velocity. Sounds like good fun.

The .360x 2-1/4 has been around since coiled cases, and has been loaded for everything from rabbits to deer. The 200 grain bullet is pretty light for caliber. I have had the best success with light for caliber loading using very little or no powder compression.


If I were to try to develop a load I would use Swiss, if for no other reason because I am most familiar with it and it's quirks. In that this is an express load I think 3f in this small case. Primers are real critical in BP loads and I would definitely use Large Pistol primers. Establish the over all length of the cartridge and determine the amount of powder required to fill the case to the base of the bullet. Increase the powder charge two grains at a time until hopefully you find the load you need. If not, change one variable and start over.

Best of luck!

Glenn


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27009
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Re: What type of BP do you use? [Re: Glenn_Fewless]
      #105115 - 15/05/08 06:55 AM

Good stuff, Glenn - thanks.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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CapeGunner
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Reged: 09/11/06
Posts: 19
Loc: New York-Hudson Valley-USA
Re: What type of BP do you use? [Re: DarylS]
      #105138 - 15/05/08 11:19 AM

Thanks very, very much for the responses. I was mostly worried about too much pressure to start. I've loaded shotgun shells for 1800's era guns and am very pressure concious. I felt your opinions were where I should start. I have some German BP I got from Graf's that I will start with just because I have it and will use the above recs once I get started. I ordered an Eley Ammunition Catalogue from Cornell, it is slightly newer than the gun but the page I saw had illustrations with OAL, bullet weight etc. I'm starting with the 200 grain bullet merely because I have them on hand from my 9.3x72R. I slugged the barrel and it appears to be .365 or .366, I'm not home so I can't be sure right now. The chamber is definitly 2 1/4" looking at my Cerrosafe casting. I have questions on that too but one thing at a time. Again thanks very much.
Frank


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: What type of BP do you use? [Re: CapeGunner]
      #105145 - 15/05/08 01:36 PM

Seyfried used to rave about Kik powder in the old BP Hunter and Handloader magazines, but was always careful to add that it was in limited supply and when that ran out, no more!

It was the only powder with which he could achieve regulation in an Alex Henry and a Dickson double express at the time (2001/02). Best article is in Handloader No. 219 October/November 2002.

I assume this stuff is long gone?

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: What type of BP do you use? [Re: Marrakai]
      #105152 - 15/05/08 02:20 PM

That German Powder Grafs sold should be WANO, who makes Schuetzen

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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