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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick"
      #104702 - 11/05/08 05:20 AM

Hi, just finished reading Terry's book, "Dangerous Game Rifles", and I thought it was pretty well done. Some of his opinion's just seemed arbitrary however. Seems like he has a bone to pick with Peter Capstick, so his only comment on the round is "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick". Since it's the only bolt action DGR cartridge between .458 and 500 caliber that factory ammo is availabe for and is in between the 470 and 500 NE rimmed cartridges in power (energy, caliber, momentum) which he loves, I'm kind of puzzled. If the cartridge has faults, (difficult feeding, extraction, too high pressure, etc.) he should have enlightened us.

Anyway my two cents,

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick" [Re: chuck375]
      #104704 - 11/05/08 05:54 AM

I don't think he was denigrating Capstick as much as the colloquial usage of "cap" in the US. To "cap" is a street gang expression for shooting someone. Used in such unfortunate turns of phrase including "pop a cap in his ass" (cap from a percussion cap, God knows where these thugs came up with that allusion.) I presume this is what set off Terry, not a grudge against a decent sort nor a problem with a great cartridge which I use and enjoy. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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chuck375
.333 member


Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick" [Re: dnovo]
      #104707 - 11/05/08 06:39 AM

Wow didn't even think of that, thanks dnovo. I don't have an axe to grind with/or against Peter Capstick, I do enjoy his books. Just thought the cartridge if it was worth a mention in the book, should have earned a sentence or two about it's suitablility.

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick" [Re: chuck375]
      #104711 - 11/05/08 08:01 AM

I liked the book, and its far better than most, but with some interesting omissions. For example, why no mention of Searcy as a DR mfg but a whole lot about the California Rigby? There are quite a few A-Square calibers that go unmentioned, which I must presume was simply a case of too many and every book has a limit. It was supposed to be a sampling, not an exhaustive list. Still, the Capstick is a great round. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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tkv000
.300 member


Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 118
Loc: Canada
Re: Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick" [Re: dnovo]
      #104713 - 11/05/08 08:27 AM

I am 3/4 of the way through the book right now, it was my first gun book (Besides reloading manuals) and I thought it was excellent, I want to order A-Squares "Any shot you want" as it looks like a good manual. Could you guys recommend any other reading material like Terrys book?

--------------------
"…and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him,"

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chuck375
.333 member


Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick" [Re: tkv000]
      #104719 - 11/05/08 09:58 AM

I highly recommend the "Any shot you want" as a good reloading resource as well as another discussion of the calibers .

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick" [Re: chuck375]
      #104728 - 11/05/08 12:07 PM

CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD is great for a very complete view of current, obsolete, wildcat, and 'proprietary' loads, plus military and rimfire. Do NOT follow the load data as it is not that reliable and not that accurate. Great history and a fun read, kept reasonably current for new loads (its in its 11th edition). Plenty of decent load manuals in print and on the Net. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick" [Re: dnovo]
      #104736 - 11/05/08 02:38 PM

My opinion is he is not denigrating the cartridge at all but the name associated with it, ie "Capstick". Basically synonymous with "Bullshitter".

Before anyone gets offended, he was a great story teller and I have very much enjoyed his writings, and from peoples personal experiences with him he seemed to be a very personable man as well, but his own stories of his own exploits were pretty much made up.

"Capstick" is one of the much debated themes on the internet, along with 'Sullivan', the killing power of a .45/70, and a few other topics.

If people want to debate all that again, go for it.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick" [Re: NitroX]
      #104747 - 11/05/08 08:51 PM

That was my understanding too

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dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick" [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #104762 - 12/05/08 12:26 AM

Taken the way you describe, and I was unaware of the 'bullshit' context, then it would seem that the comment in the book was praise for the round, and an adverse comment on the moniker only.

I enjoy the hell out of my mini-mauler in a 470 Capstick. Gary Reeder Custom normally only builds handguns, lever guns, and some single shots in large calibers, built on a reworked Ruger No. 1. (I have two of the latter, one in a 470NE and one in a 50 Alaskan, with one in a 505 Gibbs on order.) From time to time, he will rework a bolt action, reworking the action, adding a heavy barrel, and usually a muzzle brake. The result, as here, is a heavily reworked Winchester Model 70 with short, heavy bbl, muzzle brake (I use ear plugs, and prefer that to recoil tossing me off target for the follow up round), Burris scout scope and internally slicked up so the feed is smooth and reliable and it shoots nice tight groups. The weight is centralized and it carries easily and shoots a cartridge that is all you need for anything that walks, but not overwhelming at the butt end.





By the way, ANY SHOT YOU WANT has a very nice write up on the 470 Capstick, the ne plus ultra of what can be done with a 375 H&H case. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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tkv000
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Reged: 02/01/08
Posts: 118
Loc: Canada
Re: Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick" [Re: dnovo]
      #104783 - 12/05/08 03:38 AM

Thank god I have a sister who lives in the USA and can re-ship me books, check out the price difference between Amazon.ca and Amazon.com for the same book:

Amazon.ca: Any Shot You Want: The A-Square Rifle & Handloading Manual (Paperback)$168.72

Amazon.com: Any Shot You Want: The A-Square Handloading and Rifle Manual (Paperback) $37.96

(Our $ is almost right on par)

so thats 3.5 Times more!

Needless to say, I ordered it from the states, had it shipped to my sisters.

I purchased Cartridges of the world as well, keep the suggestions coming guys! I need something to do on days I can't be shooting.

Heres what I have thusfar:

Dangerous Game Rifles
Cartridges of the World
Any shot you want
Mauser Military rifle markings (2nd Edition)
For collectors only 2nd Edition The Swedish Mauser rifles
Authors Revised Edition "Backbone of the Wehrmacht" The German K98k Rifle 1934-1945

I also purchased "Bolt Action Rifles" Expanded 4th Editon by Frank de Haas, its the only one I could find with some Brno info, excellent book though I've only read the Brno section and mauser parts (so far)

--------------------
"…and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him,"

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick" [Re: chuck375]
      #104864 - 12/05/08 01:34 PM

Read that same book about a year ago and have reread parts of it several times...I really like reading most of Terry's articles however the California Rigby blessing he was giving I found a bit disturbing..he freely admits they are using Merkel actions to build them and yet seems justified in promoting their exorbitant price tag.. he seems to think the mexican Rigby is o.k and yet does not have very positive things to say regarding the other entry level doubles..with the exception of the Merkel..which, while it is a fine entry level double, seems to play into his promoting the mexican...IMHO...

Opinions...you know what they say about them...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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buckbrush
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Reged: 23/08/07
Posts: 120
Loc: Alberta
Re: Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick" [Re: Ripp]
      #104930 - 13/05/08 07:35 AM

that Reeder rifle to my eye , fuguly. It would be right at home on 24hr. campfire, however.

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick" [Re: buckbrush]
      #104977 - 13/05/08 08:19 PM

LOL
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

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dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick" [Re: buckbrush]
      #104984 - 13/05/08 10:21 PM

Quote:

that Reeder rifle to my eye , fuguly. It would be right at home on 24hr. campfire, however.



Why thank you, kind of you to say so. It is 1) efficient, 2) impossible to damage with a synthetic stock and non-mar barrel, 3) with the recoil reducers in the stock and weight concentrated all on the balance point, nicely balanced for real world use, and 4) it was VERY cheap to build and buy (under 2K), yet it provides a short-barreled multishot tool in a perfect caliber for use in the thickets were one goes to have a close encounter of the nasty kind with Alaskan bears or at longer ranges where the chance is offered and the scout scope (which comes off easily and offers easy access to the ghost ring sights)gives you the option.

In short, an effective and practical working tool, not eye candy and not offered as such. I have plenty of the latter, some of which I have posted here. If beauty is efficiency, than it is quite lovely.

Just my opinion. You are welcome to yours, of course. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick" [Re: Ripp]
      #104985 - 13/05/08 10:32 PM

Quote:

Read that same book about a year ago and have reread parts of it several times...I really like reading most of Terry's articles however the California Rigby blessing he was giving I found a bit disturbing..he freely admits they are using Merkel actions to build them and yet seems justified in promoting their exorbitant price tag.. he seems to think the mexican Rigby is o.k and yet does not have very positive things to say regarding the other entry level doubles..with the exception of the Merkel..which, while it is a fine entry level double, seems to play into his promoting the mexican...IMHO...

Opinions...you know what they say about them...

Ripp



His praise for the 'Mexican Rigby' was a bit excessive, perhaps caused in part by his ownership of one of their doubles as shown in the photos as well as his praise of the Empire imported doubles, which he also owns as shown on the cover.

Gun writers need to eat too. In legal circles, when discussing the credibility of expert witnesses who are paid to offer their opinions cloaked with the aura of 'science' the rubric is, "whose bread I eat, his song I sing.'

Now, nothing at all wrong or 'poor quality' about the Merkel actions nor workmanship. I have both boxlock and sidelock Merkels in the vault, and the inner workings are impressive and nicely finished. Some of the IWA and museum guns, which one can get through GSI (now Merkel USA) feature some exquisite and nicely executed engraving. What the new Rigby company does with them, and whether they are worth a premium for the name alone, is questionable.

As I pointed out above, the book's decision to ignore some otherwise current DR builders and praise for other, shall we say, 'lesser lights' is disappointing but perhaps just a result of commercial issues rather than intent. Searcy has been building doubles for some time and has a good reputation. Why Terry chose to ignore them is odd -- unless he and Butch have not had a good relationship. Who knows why, but this omission seems very strange.

So, take the book as a decent read, and with a large grain of salt. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick" [Re: dnovo]
      #104987 - 13/05/08 11:06 PM

Nice rifle dnovo! I'm not a fan of muzzle brakes, but that's a matter of personal preference, but all in all one of the nicest/functional big bore synthetic stocked bolt actions I've seen. And I appreciate the time and effort you took to post the images.

I'm more of a traditionalist, but I don't hunt in soaking wet country like the Alaskan coast. My 375 just got Ed Plummer's CZ #1 upgrade treatment and is on it's way home. I'll post some images and a report in a few weeks. This winter the 470 Capstick project starts.

This is what my rifle looks like now.




This is what I'd like it to look like (picture is of a hartmann and weiss rifle I could never afford).



It's not going to be eye candy though. It's my only rifle now, I gave my prized .270 to my son ...



Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Terry Wieland and "the unfortunately named 470 Capstick" [Re: chuck375]
      #104992 - 14/05/08 01:36 AM

Thanks.

Short barrels work out just fine as they are handy in tight quarters. The supposed 'loss of accuracy' or velocity is illusionary when considered as a trade off for the benefits. This setup works just fine at 100 to 150 yards. The 470 Capstick was never intended as a 'pick off that mountain goat at 500 yds' cartridge to start with. It was intended for the big 'uns at short range with a trajectory that isn't going to work at much beyond what this shorter barrel will allow anyhow. The slight loss in energy at longer range, to me at least, is worth the trade off for handiness when you are close up and personal.

Muzzle brakes are personal taste. They are usually not appreciated by those who hunt with others as the blast is not just disturbing to others but can be dangerous. When hunting alone, and in close quarters, the issues become far less of a problem.

Again, just my prefences and not what others may like. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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