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ckc
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Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics now!)
      #103561 - 26/04/08 09:06 AM

Hi,
I have just bought a German drilling (9.3x72R and 12-ga with 2 1/2" chambers). It's about 60 years old but in excellent condition with very tight action (like new). It also has the nitro proof mark on it.
1) Does anyone know who makes good 12-ga 2 1/2" shotshells? Do I have to use shotshells that are lighter loads with lower velocity and pressure? I don't know whether a drilling like this can use regular modern shotshells. Looks like it can but how do I know?
2) Should I lengthen the chambers to 2 3/4" so that I can have a better selection of ammos? Does that lower the value of the drilling?
3) The Sellier and Bellot 9.3x72R 193-gr SP ammos have a muzzle velocity of 1952 fps. It also uses flat-point bullets. The b.c. is pretty low. I am thinking about a muzzle velocity of around 2,200 fps with 200-gr Hawk round tip bulets. Do you think it's a good idea? Anyone tried that with success?

Thanks.

Edited by ckc (27/04/08 05:25 AM)

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kcordell
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling [Re: ckc]
      #103572 - 26/04/08 12:37 PM

Hi,
I have just bought a German drilling (9.3x72R and 12-ga with 2 1/2" chambers). It's about 60 years old but in excellent condition with very tight action (like new). It also has the nitro proof mark on it.
1) Does anyone know who makes good 12-ga 2 1/2" shotshells? Do I have to use shotshells that are lighter loads with lower velocity and pressure? I don't know whether a drilling like this can use regular modern shotshells. Looks like it can but how do I know?


***I have a few 12 2 1/2 but many 16 2 1/2 and typically have used gamebore for both. http://www.gamebore.com/game-loads.asp#16-game-hunting . I have also heard that Polywad seems to work well and they have a better shot selection. You can also buy direct from them so they should be cheaper then Gamebore http://www.polywad-shotgun-shells.com/2-1-2-shotshells/ . When I bought the Gamebore, I belive it was ~ $95.00/Flat but that was before they decided to introduce distributorships (there are almost none in the US so you have to buy from some guy 5 States away and pay the shipping PLUS his markup) so it's almost not worth the effort. Expensive, yes, almost double that of what a flat of typical ESTATE target will run you BUT the pressure is kept low (around 8000) which is what these were typically made for. I have seen folks extend these to 2 3/4 but to me that is a turn off and ruins the integrity of the gun. Also, the higher pressure rounds have known to loosen some of the drillings (cant remember where I read this). This has not happened to me as I have always shot the low pressure 2 1/2. Think about it though, the Brittish and Germans, Austrians and others have shot with 2 1/2 for atleast a Century and have killed birds as large as Auerhahn's and other species just fine. I have hunted Pheasant with 16 2 1/2 #6 with my drillings in the Dakotas for the last few years and kill them just as dead (with one shot) as a guy with a 12 2 3/4




2) Should I lengthen the chambers to 2 3/4" so that I can have a better selection of ammos? Does that lower the value of the drilling?

My thoughts above. However, that's my thoughts and the gun is yours. You may opt to lengthen so it suits your needs. I would though test it with the 2 1/2 and see if it meets your needs.

3) The Sellier and Bellot 9.3x72R 193-gr SP ammos have a muzzle velocity of 1952 fps. It also uses flat-point bullets. The b.c. is pretty low. I am thinking about a muzzle velocity of around 2,200 fps with 200-gr Hawk round tip bulets. Do you think it's a good idea? Anyone tried that with success?

Have not tried it. The S&B seems to do the trick for me but I am not typically shooting a great distance with my 9.3x72r - - usually less then 150yds.


Please post pictures of your acquisition. I would love to see it. Can you share any data like maker, etc?

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ckc
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling [Re: kcordell]
      #103587 - 26/04/08 03:45 PM


Here are the links for pics of my drilling. I don't know who the maker was. But it was made in Suhl. It has pretty nice case coloring and the wood is still in very good condition. Bores are excellent and I was told that it had been cased for 60 years and was hardly used. The action is tight like new. It also has cocking indicators for each of the the 3 barrels. The front trigger can also be a set-trigger. The stock also has a compartment to hold 4 rifle cartridges. Very happy about the gun. Since the metal and the wood are still in very good condition, I don't know whether I should upgrade it with a new stock and re-bluing. It doesn't seem necessary at this stage at all. Moreover, it is always nice to keep it historical.

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ckc
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics now!) [Re: ckc]
      #103638 - 27/04/08 05:31 AM

Anyone knows the approximate appraisal value of this drilling? I am very happy about the gun. Just wondering whether I have overpaid or not. Also wondering whether I should put some money in to restore it.

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kcordell
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics now!) [Re: ckc]
      #103652 - 27/04/08 08:30 AM

Hmmm... thats quite nice. I am not certain that you need to restore it as it looks pretty pristine to me for it's age. Checkering, case hardening, bluing all look fantastic. I have seen others with almost the same design on the receiver but cannot right now place where I saw them.

Others in less condition have sold for $2500 to $3K but may have had the makers name and were in 16 ga.

Hope that helps.

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luv2safari
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics now!) [Re: kcordell]
      #103909 - 30/04/08 02:51 PM

I love the graceful feeling of those snap action drillings.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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88MauSporter
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics now!) [Re: luv2safari]
      #103969 - 01/05/08 11:18 AM

I have a similar Hammer gun. But with 16ga 2 1/2 chambers with lengthened forcing cones. I have used the federal brand low velocity in the gun, but would opt for the Polywad low pressure. I believe your gun would not be too choosey about the ammo in proper chamber length. The german fodder was not very low pressure in the '30s and 40's. Fiochi, Westley Richards, and S&B are around. About the same price. If your gun is a late 30s or early 40s of good quality (I see it is very very nice), you have ammo choice. The 12 ga is a more popular chamber in the US. If the chamber job is done by a reputable name smith (Briley, Keith Kercher, etc.) I don't see this as much of a deterent to value.
I like the 9.3x72. Mine is one. I have shot the S&B loads. They are mild. They seem to shoot pretty well. I also have RWS loads. They are HOT. My gun was Proofed with 1939 German proof marks. I don't think the original gun was that new. I think I have newer barrels than the original.
I am working on some CAST loads and then some reloads of jacketed bullet. The cartridge standard is a 193 = 200 grain bullet. Your sights will likey regulate to that. I would suspect that the S&B shoot a little high. Let me know.
This is a great Boar, deer, similar size game gun. If you are a regular on this Blog, You will find several "Daryl" posts that will tell you how to work up BALL loads for those smooth bore barrels. Even with the full chokes. They will also be usable accuracy out to 50 or so yards. This makes the great "brush" gun or the fun Boar gun. I know that I will be venturing into the Thick with my drilling or cape with such a combo.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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tinker
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics n [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #103991 - 01/05/08 01:28 PM

Great looking drilling.

I wouldn't do a thing to the finish on it, restoration wouldn't do anything for the value.
In it's current condition, it looks really nice just the way it is.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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ckc
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics now!) [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #104138 - 03/05/08 04:12 AM

I have just ordered some 9.3x72 ammos from Stars and Stripes. They load the 193-gr flat point bullets (made by themselves) with muzzle velocity around 2,200fps. Definitely a hotter load than the S&B. I haven't tried them yet. Just wondering whether a spitzer bullet (hawk 200-gr round point) will have better effect on game. I do plan to use it to hunt boars. Will definitely take a look at Daryl's comments on using buckshots. Mine are full chokes. But I am not sure whether the barrels of a 60-year old gun can take the pressure of buckshots. Where do you buy 9.3 RWS ammos? What is the muzle velocity? Do they sell them here in the US?

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88MauSporter
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics now!) [Re: ckc]
      #104146 - 03/05/08 08:47 AM

CKC:
I have only encountered the RWS one time. It is also at the 2000 plus FPS. They use a coppro-nickle wide flat nose soft point. Very nice stuff. The box I have at the moment is the old black box. I can't find it listed anywhere now, but I do see brass listed once in a while.
Let me know about your Stars and stripes loads.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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Nakihunter
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics n [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #104153 - 03/05/08 12:12 PM

That is a beautiful gun! Congratulations. Please DO NOT change the chamber length or the finish. The case hardening & bluing look pristine & the wood looks like a perfect fit to metal & does not have any oil or water stains on the edges, tang, near trigger guard etc. I wish I had a gun like that.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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luv2safari
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics n [Re: Nakihunter]
      #104312 - 05/05/08 03:25 PM

Keep the loads mild, for sure! Drillings are not strong like double rifles, and they shoot loose in a hurry, even with rather mild ammo. The older drillings werent designed to run "blue pills", and you'll be sorry you did when you send it off to the smith to be put back on face and re-regulated.

The 9,3X72R is essentialy a Nitro of BP loading today. This should tell you something in itself. Use soft 193gr bullets out the end at around 1,850-1,900 FPS. I load my dwindling supply of DAK 193gr .364 bullets with around 40+ gr of IMR 3031 and have gone to 43gr in some guns. When the clock hits 1,900 FPS I'm happy and stop there.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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kcordell
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics n [Re: luv2safari]
      #104371 - 06/05/08 04:17 AM

Luv2safari,

Question, would you say that extending the chamber to 2 3/4 and shooting a hotter shell then a "vintage" grade less the 8000 psi will do the same - - loosening the action?

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ckc
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics n [Re: ckc]
      #104393 - 06/05/08 01:17 PM

Thanks for all the suggestions. Now I have some more issues. Probably because this is my first (old) drilling.

I have just got my 9.3x72R ammos from my ammos supplier and the Polywad Vintager shotshells.

For the 9.3x72R, the cartridge could not be completely inserted into the chamber. I was told by the seller of the gun that he had test-fired the drilling with the S&B 193-gr ammos. Also it says on the barrel that it is 9.3x72 N (I guess the N probably means nitro proof). Are there two types of 9.3x72R out there? The new 9.3x72R that could not be inserted in the chamber are made with Norma cases. My ammo supplier suspects it might be a different caliber or it could also be due to an undersized chamber. To be safe I am sending my ammo supplier the barrel for him to identify for the correct ammos to be used.

For the Polywad Vintager shotshells, I could hardly close the action with them in the chamber. The shell's rim at the base is a tad too wide (the vintager uses Federal hull) and cannot be completely seated inside the chamber. The action thus could not be closed properly. Are there shotshells out there with smaller rims that I should try?

Mysteries!!

Edited by ckc (06/05/08 01:27 PM)

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kcordell
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics n [Re: ckc]
      #104409 - 06/05/08 11:06 PM

Hi,

Per the polywad, I typically use Vintage - Gamebore. I included the link above. I belive they are out of West Virginia but you will have to find a distributor who carries their product.

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88MauSporter
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics n [Re: kcordell]
      #104411 - 07/05/08 12:13 AM

There was more than one chambering for the 9.3x72. The "N" designation can mean Normalized, which is what the current S&B and others are more than likely designed for, but there are many 9.3x72s with different chambers. There was a Sauer version, a Nimrod version. The others were differences in the Bullet diameter. Does the case stop due to the base being too wide for for the chamber or does they stop due to the size of the case neck? The bore diameters vary by maker on many older guns. They can be as small as .354 and as large as .375. The Normalized bore is supposed to be .366. With the smaller bore, your chamber neck may be smaller.
These guns are a challenge and mysteries in themselves. That's what makes them so interesting.
In the 12 ga chambers, did you try to see if other brands fit and close (careful with loaded shells!)?
There is the possibility that you have a gun designed for BRASS shells. Very few are, but there are some.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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ckc
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics n [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #104431 - 07/05/08 09:43 AM

I believe the case stops due to the size of the case neck. My ammos supplier uses the .363 bullets with the Norma case.

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88MauSporter
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics n [Re: ckc]
      #104441 - 07/05/08 11:02 AM

Likely you have a gun with smaller bore. Many do. Rim thickness is also variable in this caliber.
I am lucky with my find. All seems to match up. I have a 16 ga and the chambers were already worked with lenghtened forcing cones to allow 2 3/4 inch. I only shoot light pressure loads. Mine is a hammer gun, but has post 1939 proofs. Odd. I don't know if it was reproofed or had new barrels.
My 16x16x9.3x72.





--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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m4220
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics n [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #104449 - 07/05/08 01:25 PM

OK Guy's I couldn't stand it anymore, I know all of the 3 drillings that I have 1 has the tighter chamber. I just came down from the loading room where I measured 3 factory rounds from different manufacturers.

Norma (old)

Rim dia. Base dia. Neck dia.
.477 .428 .382

RWS (old)
.482 .428 .385

Selleir & Bellot (New)
.482 .424 .385

Hope this helps, if trouble chambering try to find some of the older norma 10 rnd boxes Red label, they seem to work fine in my tight chambered gun and are so marked after firing for reloads for that gun since they are now fireform to that chamber.

m4220

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luv2safari
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics n [Re: kcordell]
      #104615 - 09/05/08 12:49 PM

Quote:

Luv2safari,

Question, would you say that extending the chamber to 2 3/4 and shooting a hotter shell then a "vintage" grade less the 8000 psi will do the same - - loosening the action?



Shoot mild ammo with wads designed for these older guns and tight chokes, always,IMO. You may not blow up anything or loosen the gun up fast, but there is a real possibility of "ringing" the barrel at the choke. It plays hell with rifle barrel regulation when you do this. Drillings are not very strong, relatively speaking. They have been trimmed everywhere to keep weight down.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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Birdhunter50
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Re: Ammos for 12x12x9.3x72R Drilling Questions (with pics n [Re: luv2safari]
      #108815 - 03/07/08 10:46 AM

I would recommend that you not extend the chambers because these barrels narrow down very quickly and you will be removing valueable steel right where it is needed the most. I advise you to look for lighter loads for the rifle, not heavier or faster. Even though your gun is comparably newer than many out there, it is an unknown quantity when it comes to strength, eapecially since you are not dead sure what ammo it is really supposed to take. Do not refinish it, restock it, reblue or otherwise mess with it. You have been extreemly lucky to be able to purchase this gun in the extrordinary condition that it is in. Anything you do or have done to change it will make it worth less and will look wrong. Leave it alone! That's my two cents worth. Bob H.

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