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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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bwanakim
.275 member


Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 69
Loc: San Antonio, Texas
Caveat Emptor!!
      #103024 - 21/04/08 08:08 AM

I'm starting a new post here rather than adding to my previous post about the Raick Freres .470. offered by WR in Montana. I purchased this rifle on approval and had it sent to Kirk Merrington who has been my gunsmith and friend for more than 25 years. Kirk phoned me with a preliminary appraisal, and I drove to Kerrville on a Saturday to look the rifle over. His initial inspection revealed several defects including cocking dog screws that had been stripped, and in fact fell out when he tried to turn them, and one ruined gas relief screw on the left ball of the action. Kirk recommended that I not buy the rifle unless he did a full strip of the action. WR agreed, and he accomplished a complete inspection. Here is what he found, outlined in a letter to Kevin at WR:

1. Wood screw in forearm replaced with common metal screw;
2. L ejector tripper brazed and worn;
3. R ejector tripper soft with signs of welding;
4. bad pitting on fore end iron;
5. ejector cocking piece in forearm loose;
6. ejector springs in very poor shape;
7. safety didn't work;
8. sear spring screws butchered;
9. cocking dog screws stripped and retaining screws for these destroyed;
10. pivot pins -- hammer and sear-- badly worn;
11. L disc set striker screw stripped;
12. L striker broken;
13. locking bolt welded and refit;
14. replaced top lever spring;
15. hammers soft at the head.

Kevin said the UK group had sent it to him to unload over here. He was a gentleman about the whole thing and paid shipping both ways. I was out only Kirk's fees of $250.00. The gun was very attractive on the outside, and balanced well. The barrels and bores were in very good shape. What happened to the innards he could not say. Somebody's high school project?

The thing is positively dangerous. I have my money back, but what a scare. I have bought lots of doubles with no inspection and have come out largely OK with maybe this and that needing to be fixed. Something told me this was too good to be true--and it was. Thank God I insisted upon the full inspection. This taught me one thing for sure--be satisfied with what I have because there's a lot of junk out there--perhaps that's all that remains.

I'd like to see what you have to say. Yes, it's a used item, but do they have any obligation morally or ethically if something like this might be used on dangerous game? This isn't a jackrabbit rifle after all.

--------------------
bwanakim


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Caveat Emptor!! [Re: bwanakim]
      #103025 - 21/04/08 08:16 AM


bwanakim

"Kevin said the UK group had sent it to him to unload over here. "

I don't like the sound of that.


I do know that in the high level of interest period a few years back, a lot of guns that was out of proof according to UK laws (mostly shotguns) were sent to the US where no proof laws existed. I believe this was clamped down on a bit.

Not good.


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470evans
.333 member


Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: Caveat Emptor!! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #103029 - 21/04/08 09:09 AM

Bwana,

You would expect this could happen on a gun bought from an indivual, not someone like Westleys.

I won't buy a gun from anyone, even the most "reputable" dealer, without requiring an inspection by JJ including firing the gun. There are too many junkers out there among the diamonds!

I've had 8 Doubles Rifles sent to JJ so far, 5 passed inspection, 2 didn't, on one I was able to negotiate 8k less in price due to issues he pointed out.

Reading this in a prior string makes me believe even stronger in a pre-purchase inspection.




"I am not worried about my ethics at all. Everything was on the up and up. I wasn't about to try to sell something by pointing out all the bad points. Who does? But neither did I misrepresent what I had. I sold it "as is" and Cabelas had it for "examination" in a back room for over half an hour. Nothing wrong with the firearm was hidden, rather everything was in plain sight or available upon opening the action. I figured their "experts" were too eager to buy the maker's product to care enough to look closely. But, for all I know, they may have discussed all the shortcomings and decided it was worth what they paid me for it anyway.

I bought the firearm from what I had considered a reliable source using reputation and photos as a guide. He had a return policy (reputable) and said he would take it back but I decided to keep it anyway. The price was low and I thought I could live with some of the shoddy workmanship and have the stock altered by the maker (REQUIRED for proper functioning of the action). It was later when I found out just how much it would cost that I decided to get rid of the gun. I wasn't willing to pay extra to have the stock fixed and still be left with a rifle that had other things that weren't as they should be. It was far from a good example of work from the maker and a real disappointment. It was built shortly after WWII and maybe that was a bad time for them but I don't know.

Regarding the ethics of gun dealers who unload on Cabelas, perhaps they just see it as good business. If they take a poor firearm in on a trade and they don't want to offer junk to their customers what are they to do with it? The only recourse is to sell it to a company that can move junk. That is how a "reputable" and "respectable" car dealer does it. The car dealer takes your junker in on trade towards the new model and then sells it at auction. The low end dealer that buys the car at auction sometimes gets a good deal and recovers his money and sometimes he makes a bad deal and loses some on the resale. The consumer who eventually buys the low end used car takes his chances and his car comes with an "AS IS, NO WARRANTY" sticker on it.

If Cabelas chooses to become the discount king of used gun retailers then they know they will win on some and loose on others. A 30% markup on used guns recovers a lot of purchasing mistakes and thus Cabelas' high prices."


Scary comments.....

I'd say your inspection $ was the best you'll spend in a while.


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Caveat Emptor!! [Re: 470evans]
      #103030 - 21/04/08 09:15 AM



The ONLY "no comeback" situation is buying at the Auctions where in reality you can only inspect the outside of the gun.


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dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Caveat Emptor!! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #103035 - 21/04/08 11:14 AM

Getting JJ to find the time to inspect requires some patience. He is VERY overworked, and for good reason as he is very, very good. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


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Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3556
Loc: Colorado
Re: Caveat Emptor!! [Re: 470evans]
      #103038 - 21/04/08 11:22 AM

I agree to some extent to both points of view.
BUT, Westley Richards is not a low end dealer - or at least shouldn't be.
I see many DG doubles advertised as "ready for that African trip" or "take on any dangerous game".
Now, I don't see WR usind catch phrases such as these, but if they don't have absolute confidence in what they are selling, they should hang it up. Perhaps the alternative is to specialize in the high end of the market selling the best condition guns with no monkey business.
The expectation is that when buying from WR, you have some assurance that you are at the very least not buying something dangerous...I guess that is not the case.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Caveat Emptor!! [Re: 500Nitro]
      #103079 - 21/04/08 10:26 PM

Quote:


bwanakim

"Kevin said the UK group had sent it to him to unload over here. "

I don't like the sound of that.


I do know that in the high level of interest period a few years back, a lot of guns that was out of proof according to UK laws (mostly shotguns) were sent to the US where no proof laws existed. I believe this was clamped down on a bit.

Not good.




That actually happens a fair amount--which is why I did not buy the 500 -3' they had for sale last summer---another one sent over that was a former India purchase..loved the gun but it had seen its better days...even shot it a few times..

Unfortunately in todays world and the prices doubles are bringing, I put gun sales with the same group as used car salesman and horse traders...as the name suggests of this post.."let the buyer beware"...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Caveat Emptor!! [Re: bwanakim]
      #103109 - 22/04/08 01:37 AM

I am sorry to hear of your trouble, that's a scary set of circumstances.

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bwanakim
.275 member


Reged: 04/12/06
Posts: 69
Loc: San Antonio, Texas
Re: Caveat Emptor!! [Re: ]
      #103143 - 22/04/08 10:07 AM

Kevin called me today and was upset by my use of the word "unload" as if he also knew the gun was a mess and sent it out anyway. He did not request this correction, but in fairness, I am making it. I meant to imply that WRUK, not Kevin, was "unloading" this gun, that word being a pejorative term for "sell." I do not believe Kevin knew the thing was a mess, and indeed, it appeared OK on first glance. Kevin has conducted himself very honorably in this situation, and I believe did more than he was bound to do in the circumstances.

I still believe, though, that at this level, there should be an ascertainment by dealers before they sell a gun, that it meets some minimum threshold requirement for use as a DG rifle, and that it is safe to the user and bystanders.

--------------------
bwanakim


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Caveat Emptor!! [Re: bwanakim]
      #103145 - 22/04/08 10:23 AM


bwanakim

FYI, I took it as WRUK "unloading" it, NOT as Kevin doing the "unloading" (so to speak).


I think your dreaming about getting the 2nd paragraph to be adhered to. Sorry, it just won't happen IMHO. Too many interested in the $$$ of the sale and not putting the $$$ into tfixing up the guns before sale.


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starwars
.275 member


Reged: 03/04/08
Posts: 58
Loc: California
Re: Caveat Emptor!! [Re: bwanakim]
      #103155 - 22/04/08 11:23 AM

Bwanakim- I have been collecting fine guns for about 45 years and have been screwed and almost screwed, more times than I care to mention in that time period. Some dealers are much better than others about being honest as you allude to. This is not the first time I have heard of issues with the honesty factor or attitude over there. I have a hard time believing that this was all a mystery with that many problems with the gun. I guess what there saying is there totally incompetent. It would be nice to have a pro over there to speak with considering the Birmingham companies history you would think that would be the case. Well at least you were able to get a refund thank God. The term buyer beware certainly has new meaning to you now I am sure.

--------------------
Richard


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Caveat Emptor!! [Re: starwars]
      #103239 - 23/04/08 12:55 AM

Kevin has always done right by me, I think he's a good kid in a very difficult business. I am sure he didn't have a clue about the condition of this gun, as they get sent stuff from the UK often from what I understand.

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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: Caveat Emptor!! [Re: ]
      #103246 - 23/04/08 01:10 AM

I'll try and contact WR here in the UK and get their side of the story...
I imagine that somewhere along the line there has been some kind of misunderstanding or breakdown in communication. If the gun is unsafe, it would normally be repaired, or be advertised as such and sold through an auction house. I'll post if I hear anything.


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Caveat Emptor!! [Re: ]
      #103286 - 23/04/08 12:36 PM

Quote:

Kevin has always done right by me, I think he's a good kid in a very difficult business. I am sure he didn't have a clue about the condition of this gun, as they get sent stuff from the UK often from what I understand.





AGREE--Kevin is a great guy--and had done by me as well---however, as in all business, you are responsible for what you offer for sale, whether its guns, goats or potatoes...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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