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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Some info about the 7,65 Mauser and its guns
      #100956 - 31/03/08 11:50 AM

I think this would be of some interest and want to share it woth you.
This is an extract from an article I wrote for "Revista Magnum" an Argentine gun magazine that is also sold in Uruguay, Chile y Brazil.
I beg your pardon my English as I simply translate the text using an online translator and made some corrections. Any correction will be wellcome.LOL

Some curious information of our 7,65 Mauser and its guns.
by Martín Godio.

Much has been written in this magazine about 7,65 Mauser virtues, for this reason, I do not claim to have any more that to add but some curious information and little known information.
Besides, I want to clarify the fact that this note does not register in any type of introspective revisionism that is so fashionable nowadays. The 7,65x54mm is in my opinion an excellent cartridge under any point of view and I only can object the lack of variety in ammunition. I am sure that the great majority of those that have had opportunity to use it, will coincide with this.
If I chose to refer to it as " our 7,65 " it is because somehow, all the “fierreros”(gun nuts??) have had some type of "relation" with it. My first hunting rifle was a sporterized M1891 carbine. To say that it kicks would be to underestimate enormously its capacity to hurt me; a practice session leaves my shoulder red and hurting for several days. When, some time later, my uncle gave me a FM 1935 hunting rifle, the recoil seems to me like that of a carbine .22.
For many years I used some other cartridges, .308 Win.,.270 Win. and .375 H&H Mag. But some time ago I get a battered sporting M 98 and rebarrel it to the 7,65. This decision was mostly economic, just an intermediate step. The idea was to use this military barrel (I get it used at low price) until I get the money for a .35 Whelen barrel. When I regulated the sights I fell in love with it. The gun, without excessively accuracy shoots very well and now it is my primary hunting rifle.
Leaving the anecdotes, we can say that one of the particularities of 7,65x54mm not much remembered is the fact that this was first cartridge developed by Mauser in being used by a country as his service weapon. Though often the 8x57mm appears in the books and magazines as 8mm Mauser, it was not designed by Mauser but by the unlucky Commission of 1888.
The 7,65x54mm was adopted at first by Belgium in the year 1889, then by Turkey in 1890 and finally by Argentina in 1891. Spain used it fleetingly in his Model 1893, an intermediate design very similar to the Model 1891, but with the system of extraction used later in the Model 1898. The Spanish Navy bought a small lot, but finally decided to adopt 7x57mm Mauser as cartridge of regulation.
Spain used 10.000 guns and 5.000 carbines of the model Mauser Argentino 1891 in 7.65mm. to be able to face to a raising in Melilla, Morocco. Argentine Government asked Loewe to send those rifles and carbines (that was ordered by and made for Argentine) to Spain. Once finished the raising, these weapon would be destined for Cuba, being temporarily the second regulation cartridge. Will they have taken part of the famous War between USA and Spain?

More to come.
Martin


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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Some info about the 7,65 Mauser and its guns [Re: beleg2]
      #100957 - 31/03/08 11:51 AM

Part 2:

On the international market, the denomination more common of 7,65x54mm Mauser is that of 7,65 Argentine and this in spite of having being used by other countries as Belgium, Spain, Turkey, Colombia, Ecuador, Paraguay, Peru and Bolivia. It is my opinion that this owed to the fact, almost entirely fortuitously, of that Argentina was selling great quantity of guns, M 1891 and M1909 when the F.A.L. was adopted as regulation gun in the decade of 1950.
Due to this, our Mauser 7,65 is very well know in the rest of the world, but mostly in the USA where they were very popular in the decade of 1960. In several occasions I have surprised by the appreciation that our guns get in both models. Bearing in mind that the Model 1891 is overcome technologically by the Model 1909, we might think that great they would consider it a model " second quality gun ". Nevertheless, I have found in Internet fanatics of the M 1891 that consider it the last of the old fashioned rifles. The quality of manufacture of these rifles and his quality control is incredible and very estimated for the connoisseurs.
The Model 1909 have the particularity of being one of the most suitable to be used in Custom rifles chambered for long cartridges like the .375 H&H., 8x68mm and the Weatherby cartridges among others.
For this cartridges you have to increase the length of the magazine and this can be done backward or forward. The most suitable reform is backward since to extend the loader towards ahead implies weakening the housing of the lower bolt lug, with the potential danger that this involves in cartridges of so high pressure. Though this does not mean that a reformed gun hereby is going to break inexorably using .375 H&H Mag. Ammo, I know of some actions that suffered a deformation notable in the above mentioned place. The classic model Mauser 1898 possesses a system of retention of the magazine that make very complex the backward reform and it is necessary do very important changes in the above mentioned system. On the other hand, the system used by our Mauser 1909 the loader allows to lengthen it backward without much complications.
But Mauser was the only one offering guns chambered for our 7,65x54mm.
At the beginning of the 20th century, many Argentine gun shops were buying and/or ordering from Europe for the 7,65x54mm. That was the case of the guns made by Imman Meffert for Pedro Worm, one of which I had for some time. It was almost identical to another rifle I saw hung on the above mentioned gun shop.
Other manufacturers were offering this cartridge in some of his models, such it is the case of the Rolling Block Model Nº5 of Remington. A small lot of these guns was sold to the Argentina in 1902 and probably some more have been bought by individuals. These guns should be differed of others made by Argentine arsenals with cannons specially sent from Germany before the order of the first model was finished 1891.
Another very little known fact is that Winchester offered his first bolt action rifle, Model 54 in three European cartridges, the 7x57mm, the 9x57mm and our 7,65x54mm Mauser. This rifle, predecessor of the famous Winchester 70 and was on the market between 1925 and 1941. The destination of these guns was undoubtedly the international market and the incorporation of our cartrige speaks of its popularity those years and of the important position of our country in the world.
Of another side of the Atlantic Ocean, the famous gun maker Daniel Fraser, in Edinburgh, Scotland, was offering his bolt rifles in his property cartridge, the .303 Fraser rimless. This one was not other that ours meritorious 7,65x54mm Mauser. Though it seems to be very strange that a British gun maker offered guns chambered for foreign ammo, this was common enough. We have not to confuse this cartridge with other rimmed of the same manufacturer called .303 Fraser who is based on .303 British.

Thanks for reading.
Martin

Edited by beleg2 (31/03/08 11:52 AM)


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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
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Re: Some info about the 7,65 Mauser and its guns [Re: beleg2]
      #100959 - 31/03/08 11:52 AM

Part 3.

In the book " Cartridge for Collectors " Fred A. Datig presents two curious information, the first one is the existence of a 7,65x53,5mm Marga, developed at the beginning of the 20th century by the Belgian Captain Uldarique Marga for a rifle and machine gun of his invention. It have an almost identical case as ours 7,65 but with a small rim. The other one, the 7,65x61mm Argentine Navy Match that seemingly was developed by Winchester for the shootingteam of the Marina Argentina (argentine Navy) in 1914 taking as a base the case of .30-06 Spr. to be used in the 1916 Pan-American competitions. A limited series of this cartridge was done to commemorate 40 years of the Association collectors' Argentina of Weapon and Ammunitions (AACAM) in 2006.
To finish I would like to add last two really curious anecdotes in connection to our 7,65mm. The first one is the appearance of 7x54mm ammunition in the South of Africa during the War of the Boers. These cartridges were used in guns Mausers 7x57mm in the same way as the original one though there were some reports of problems. This ammunition was known popularly as " short neck ". Originally there was thought that they were cases of 7x57mm with the shortened neck, nevertheless as the diameter of the base it was of 11,95mm, today it is known that they were 7,65x54mm Mauser cases necked down to 7mm.
Provided that the majority of the cases were of Spanish origin, some suspect that this ammunition could be a remnant after Spain choose the 7x57mm.
Finally, our meritorious 7,65mm turned out to be involved in John F. Kennedy's murder. In the first hours, the CIA informed that the murder weapon was a Mauser 7,65mm confusing it with the 7,35mm Mannlicher-Carcano. Because of this confusion is unsolved, some say that it was a mistake, though this is not credible since the inscriptions in a Carcano do not leave doubts of his origin. Another version says that it was a weapon planted with dark intentions. Probably we will never know for sure.
So our 7,65x54mm it is a cartridge with great history.

The end.
Martin


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Some info about the 7,65 Mauser and its guns [Re: beleg2]
      #100996 - 31/03/08 08:23 PM

Very enjoyable read! (...from one "fierrero" to another! )

Thanks for posting it.

On our side of the pond (and of world politics this past century or more) the .303 British is thought of in a similar light. I understand the sentiment well.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
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Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Some info about the 7,65 Mauser and its guns [Re: Marrakai]
      #100999 - 31/03/08 09:19 PM

Marrakai,
We share the use of the same bullets (or lack of it). LOL
Martin


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88MauSporter
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Reged: 06/06/07
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Re: Some info about the 7,65 Mauser and its guns [Re: beleg2]
      #101038 - 01/04/08 02:59 AM

Thanks, Martin.
Great write-up. Good research and info.
Enjoyed it.
Best,

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Some info about the 7,65 Mauser and its guns [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #101092 - 01/04/08 02:14 PM

Martin, a great piece!! Thanks for posting!

Many 7.65x54 rifles have been sold in the USA, though as a hunting caliber it has never gotten its due. It is a winner.

I wonder if Bannerman in the USA ever sold 7.65 rifles captured in Cuba and if that is how some were brought in to the USA. They sold other guns taken during the Span-Amer War.

Did Winchester offer a 7.65 M70? Seems like I remember reading somewhere that they did, unless I am mistaking it for the 7.65 chambered M54's.

There is an article by Harris Bierman on the Remingoton 30 that states the 30 was chambered in 7.65, too. It is in GUNS OF THE WORLD, Bonanza Books, 1977.

Thanks again for posting.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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WVFRED
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Re: Some info about the 7,65 Mauser and its guns [Re: 9.3x57]
      #101350 - 03/04/08 10:47 AM

Martin,
Very interesting and a great read.
Thanks for posting.

Fred


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HackSawTom
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Reged: 03/08/03
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Re: Some info about the 7,65 Mauser and its guns [Re: WVFRED]
      #101757 - 06/04/08 10:11 AM

The Argentine 1891 and 1909 Mausers are no strangers to my gun club. We shoot vintage military bolt action rifle matches. These are at steel targets from 200 meters out to 800 meters. The rifles must be in unaltered condition and of course bolt action, pre 1950's.

I picked up a 1891 7.65X54 from a man who was going to, if you can believe it, cut it up to make a lamp for $10. He include 100 rounds of loaded Norma ammo. The rifle other than having the Arentina crest remove was in mint condition with all matching numbers including the cleaning rod. Having confidence in the quality control of craftsman who put the rifles together I shot the rifle the next day in the match without the opportunity to sight it in. I finished 3rd out of 55 shooters! Based on this I have sinced picked up a 1909 rifle, cavalry carbine, and a engineer's carbine. The price for unaltered rifles has gone through the roof, so anyone who even considers using one for conversion to a sporting rifle is now judged in the same class as a child molester in our gun club! Great rifles, superb craftsmanship.


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88MauSporter
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Reged: 06/06/07
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Re: Some info about the 7,65 Mauser and its guns [Re: HackSawTom]
      #101771 - 06/04/08 12:38 PM

I have enjoyed shooting my 7.65X54 mausers. I have three. An 1891 Mauser made rifle, 1891 Lowe Cav. Carbine (no bayonet attachment) and a 1909 "Mtn" Carbine made in Argentina. I also have a Buenas Aries Police S&W M&P copy revolver and Colt Systeam 1924 (1991) Auto to complement the collection. All three rifles are like commercial grade guns in finish and function. All shoot very well with my reloads. I would bring them to the field to hunt any time, as they are.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter


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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Some info about the 7,65 Mauser and its guns [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #101816 - 06/04/08 10:50 PM

The 7,65x54mm is a much better cartridge than the .308 Win.
The only disadvantage is the lack of premium bullets and having not much options.
If you want a heavy spitzer you have to use Sierra 180s and I much preffer Hornadys.
Im very fond of Hornady ammo and now I use them, at 50 meters hole overlap.
Martin


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