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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Hardened round ball or bullet?
      #100362 - 26/03/08 12:26 PM

I have good “regulation” using REALs in my .58” Kodiak double rifle but I would like to use round balls.
I will use it for boar hunting so penetration is very important to me.
I’m looking for some advise from those that have experience.
Can a wheel weight round ball have equal penetration as a 460 gn pure lead bullet?
Thanks
Martin

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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2121
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Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: beleg2]
      #100376 - 26/03/08 03:21 PM

I will assume that W.W. in Argentina is the same basic alloy as it is here in the USA.
If it is, you take 10 pounds of it and add 1 table spoon of Hornady high antimony shot to it.
Cast your balls out of this.
You will find that with a charge of about 120 gr of 3F black, these balls will go deeper than your pure lead bullets, despite the fact they weigh only about 270 gr.
If you cans the R.E.A.Ls. out of the same alloy they will go very deep. Deeper then the balls, but you may have to use a small mallet to start them. The only problem with bullets in muzzleloaders is that sometimes they go through animals in crocked paths. They will go deep if they are hard, but many times they don't go straight.

SZ

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degoins
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Reged: 28/02/06
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Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: szihn]
      #100398 - 26/03/08 09:50 PM

Ok, I'm very new to muzzle loading and casting so take this for what it's worth......I killed a pig a couple of weeks ago(the one that I posted the link to the picture of) with my 8 bore built by Steve and used a round ball cast of pure lead. The ball wizzed right through the pig, scraped the side of a gum tree about 20 yards beyond the pig and slammed into a cypress tree about 20 yards beyond that. As soon as I can get back there to dig it out I will post a picture of the ball. I killed a smaller pig that same day, but hit it in the face with grotesque results. During the deer season I killed a big doe and a small buck with this same combo.......both complete pass throughs. All that to say, I dont think you will have any penetration issues with the round ball on pigs and they are much easier to load.

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: degoins]
      #100427 - 27/03/08 03:13 AM

SZ,
Thank for your advise. As long as I know it is almost the same BHN 13.
Im afraind that WW-REALs would be too hard for loading.
So, hard round ball do not go straight inside the "target".........

degoins,
Thanks for your answer.
A 8 bore ball weights lot more than a .58". LOL
BTW: Do you know why I can not see your picture?


I will try some RBs this weekend and if "regualte" OK I get a mold.

Thanks
Martin

Edited by beleg2 (27/03/08 03:16 AM)

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Dphariss
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Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Montana
Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: beleg2]
      #100430 - 27/03/08 03:29 AM

Quote:

I have good “regulation” using REALs in my .58” Kodiak double rifle but I would like to use round balls.
I will use it for boar hunting so penetration is very important to me.
I’m looking for some advise from those that have experience.
Can a wheel weight round ball have equal penetration as a 460 gn pure lead bullet?
Thanks
Martin




I have never hunted hogs but I have had a conversation with a man who guided hunts for Russian boar in Texas and his point was shot placement. He did not like soft lead bullets either. I would use hardened balls. But I have a 16 bore rifle (66 caliber) and would use it with a RB.
I would have to look up the twist of the Kodiak but if its slower than 30" or so the heavy bullet may not track straight on striking the animal, a bullet aimed for a vital spot might deflect and miss it. This can cause problems...

Dan

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
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Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: beleg2]
      #100431 - 27/03/08 03:32 AM

Martin - you cannot shoot WW of anything in that .58 and expect accuracy with one exception. The slugs won't load as you won't be able to cut the lead with the lands, and with round balls, the patch will cut at the crown and powder gasses will cut them. For boar, pure lead will work just fine.
: Now, the only way to shoot WW balls in your .58 would ber to use a very grossly undersize ball, like a .562". That way, you could possibly use a thick patch to take the lands. You might be restricted in loading with undersize WW balls, ie: it will now allow as heavy a load as a larger pure lead ball with proper patch.
; A 260gr. WW round ball will not penerate as deeply as a pure lead 460gr. slug - highly unlikely, anyway - BUT - penetration should be more than needed, pure or WW. A pure lead .575" RB will make the off side of a bull moose (double lung'd) after breaking the leg bone on impact. That shoulh do for boar. .58 calibre round ball muzzleloaders were common "Bear Guns", made specifically for that purpose in the 1850's in the Western USA. "Califonia Bear Gun" was engraved on one make of them.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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degoins
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Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 435
Loc: SC, USA
Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: DarylS]
      #100438 - 27/03/08 04:24 AM

begleg2,
you can find the link to my pig picture on the paradox and bore gun forum under the thread "8 bore vs wild boar"

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: DarylS]
      #100439 - 27/03/08 04:26 AM

Dan,
"if its slower than 30" or so the heavy bullet may not track straight on striking the animal, a bullet aimed for a vital spot might deflect and miss it."
Would you please explain me what you mean?

Daryl,
After shooting 460 gn REALs a 270 RB looks very light. LOL
I have no experience shooting game with muzzleloader, only with rifle and handgun.
I did not realice it can be a problem to load a WW RB. Thanks
I much preffer a complete pass through, JMHO.

Degoins,
I try again but can not see the picture or contact the site. It must be my compueter. Thanks

Thanks again
Martin

Edited by beleg2 (27/03/08 04:31 AM)

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88MauSporter
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Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: beleg2]
      #100471 - 27/03/08 09:48 AM

I hear the Boar in Argentina are very large and very tough. I have hear do the True 500 pound boars there. My largest boar was a true 200 lb plus bore. A jacketed 8mm Mauser SP was good, but did not pass all the way through after hitting bone and then the Tough Armour at the neck and shoulders.
My son killed a 150 lb Russian boar with his .223 single shot. One of the neck shots only barely penetrated the Armour.
My next boar will likely be my .50 caliber cape with the 16 ga barrel loaded with the "Daryl" ball recipe.

Martin:
Great luck and great hunting wishes to the cazadore. I hope to be going on a similar hunt in Argentina within the year. Tell me how it goes.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2121
Loc: United States
Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #100490 - 27/03/08 11:08 AM

Daryl
With all respects, but I have to let you know you are wrong in your assumption. I had a .58 caliber Hawken 38 years ago, with an old Green River barrel in it. It was the first muzzleloader I ever made I bought a REAL 440 gr mold. (which I still have) I killed deer and I also used it to kill cattle on the ranch back home from time to time (sick ones and the bulls when it was time to "move them off".
I found that the 440 gr REAL made from water dropped WW would penitrate extremely deep, but would veer off in some cases, and not go where I wanted it to go in the cattle. The balls went straight.
I cast some REALS out of pure lead and I thought (as you do) that they would do better than the balls.
You are also 100% correct in your idea of how a hard WW ball needs to be used in a 58. My old mold is a .565" and I used denim as a patch.
The surprise was that using WW in a .565" ball penetrated at least 2X deeper than the REAL cast from pure lead. WAY deeper and WAY better!
I know if seems unlikely, but try it.
A few years ago I killed a nice big moose with my 62 cal (.600" ball) American Jaeger rifle. I used a WW ball (320 gr) and it went through BOTH upper leg bones and exited the moose and I heard it hit some tree braches on the other side. I have killed 4 moose in my life and 3 of them seemed somewhat unimpressed with my bullets. All died, and pretty fast, but I was impressed how even the 375H&H didn't seem to "hurt" them all that much.
I killed 1 with one 375 H&H bullet (300 gr Sierra) one with 2 375H&H bullets (285 gr Speer Grand Slams) and one with a 348 Winchester (200 gr Hornady) None of them even staggered when I shot.

But the one I killed with my 62 flintlock dropped on his chin as soon as the gun fired. With just a hard ball, and it went clear through.
So, don't think WW balls won't penitrate. They will.
I don't think they will go as deep as an 8 bore bullet, but I can promise you from my own experience, in 58 cal, the WW balls did LOTS better then the pure lead bullets.

Steve

Edited by szihn (14/05/08 06:03 AM)

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degoins
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Reged: 28/02/06
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Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: szihn]
      #100534 - 27/03/08 10:00 PM

Here ya go Martin......

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degoins
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Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: degoins]
      #100535 - 27/03/08 10:00 PM

My appologies to those who have already seen this.

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
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Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: degoins]
      #100548 - 28/03/08 12:11 AM

Picture looks good to me - every time. No appology required.
; As to the RB's and bullets, pure and WW metal, I bow to your experience, Steve. I've not tired the REAL's in WW due to difficulty loading in my rifle. It engraved every band and I know from my experience with a .50 cal. fast twist barrel I had, such engraving bullets required pure lead to load easily enough and slug up to fill the grooves for accuracy.
; As you, I also found slugs did not go in the requisite course through moose, when fired from 48" twists. They diverted and changed direction, often 45 to 90 degree course changes.
: The only WW balls I've shot into moose were almost 14 bore sized at .684" loaded in paper ctgs. Every moose staggered when hit by this rifle, some sidestepping at impact. It's really something to see, that's for sure. Only my .458 staggered them but not as vividly as the .69 (14 bore) rifle did,
; We've since found that paper ctgs. work down to .54 calibre, so .58 is a probability for use with larger .570"WW balls. With cloth patches, they must be much smaller.
; If anyone wants further help on paper cts., just e-mail me so I can show you pictures of them.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
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Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: DarylS]
      #100558 - 28/03/08 01:11 AM

Daryl,
Just out of curiosity, what powder charge did you use with those .684 WW balls?
If I get another chance to kill another moose I might do it with a 16 bore or a 12 bore. (both I have parts to make, but I have never had time to make them for myself. I am always working on someone else's gun, and have not made one for myself in 12 years now)
With my .600 balls I used 140 gr of 3F. The bull I killed with that rifle was about 70 yards away.

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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
Posts: 591
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Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: szihn]
      #100581 - 28/03/08 06:10 AM

degoins,
Thanks for posting the picture again but there must be a problem with my computer as I can not see it.
I will try from another computer and let you know.
Thanks
Martin

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degoins
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Reged: 28/02/06
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Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: beleg2]
      #100646 - 28/03/08 09:51 PM

You're welcome Martin, sorry you cant see it. Good luck on the other computer.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: szihn]
      #100673 - 29/03/08 02:02 AM

Steve - in the 14 bore single muzzleloader, with the .684" pure lead balls pathced with .022" denim, I used 165gr. GOEX. This gave me 1,550fps. I could not load WW balls with that charge with a cloth patch thick enough to withstand the pressure, but they did fine in paper ctgs., so were a second shot, 8 second reload proposition. A thinner patch and card wad might have worked but I never went there.
: In the 12 bore double ctg. gun, I used up to 191gr. (7 drams) of 2F GOEX with a .684" WW ball sitting in the inverted gas check off a trap wad. I protected the plastic from the black powder flame with a card wad. 191gr. gave 1,550fps with the small .685", 466gr. ball, as well as with a 545gr. .715" ball. I assume the heavier ball increased the burn rate of the powder slightly, giving identcial veloctiies as the smaller ball.
; With smokeless powders in modern ctg. guns, you can duplicate the 7 dram load with about 1/3 to 1/2 the recoil of black powder.
; Since you are talking muzzleloaders, the guys with the Pedersoli 12's are using up to 175gr. Swiss and getting 1,600fps or thereabouts with .715's. This is right around eqivalent to my ballistics in the 14 bore in that velocities were running about the same. I needed over 200gr. 2F GOEX to get 1,700fps. & that kicked too much.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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degoins
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Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: DarylS]
      #100678 - 29/03/08 03:12 AM

Hey Daryl,
do those Pedersoli 12s seem to be holding up good with those charges of powder? They certaily look stout enough.

thanks,
David

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: degoins]
      #100710 - 29/03/08 07:31 AM

Hi David - I've not heard of any of the guys having problems, and they'd show up here if they did. The only trouble I'd think, might be from stock wood not taking the recoil. The pressure developed is still very mild, compared to small calibre BP rifles. I would be surprised to see a pressure figure of over 12,000PSI for a double 12 and that might take 250gr. or more of 2F to do that - shooting round balls, that is.
: My old double 12 made in about 1900, maybe before & stamped with "Fluid Steel Barrels", is still going strong. The guy who owns it is still shooting black powder ball loads for moose, although that's frowned upon here in BC. Apparently the game branch doesn't feel they're powerful enough. Bloody idiots. With no vents or nipples to let out some pressure, his loads of 5.5 drams 2f would equate closely with 175gr. in a muzzleloader - likely, just a guess. I shot a lot of 191gr. loads (7 drams) with round ball and they showed no more pressure than typical modern shot loads - so, perhaps about 10,000 to 11,000 - maybe. Hard to say, I don't have any pressure equipment.
; A number of the guys with the Pedersoli's have returned them due to problems with locks and cross firing and have been given new ones. One guy has tested and returned 2 that crossed with piddling little loads but was 3rd time lucky.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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degoins
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Re: Hardened round ball or bullet? [Re: DarylS]
      #100718 - 29/03/08 09:20 AM

Daryl,
many thanks for the info.......again.

David

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