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iqbal
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Reged: 05/02/03
Posts: 778
Loc: Karachi,Pakistan
Re: .303 British bullet tests courtesy of 9ThreeXFifty7 [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #102555 - 15/04/08 11:30 PM

The .303 was extensively used in India both by the army and sportsmen(mostly the same).It was used for hunting tigers and all other animals.I'm not sure if Jim Corbett used it.It is still found and used here by the tribesmen in the frontier province although it has been replaced by the AK 47.I have had the oppurtunity to fire a full stock 303 and found it to be very accurate.

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: Grenadier]
      #102557 - 16/04/08 12:23 AM

Thanks Grenadier - I couldn't get the google link to work, but I found it at www.archive.org I posted the discussion below (not in copyright). Interesting letter from F.C.Selous, who just happens to be a hero of mine!

Bullet and Shot in Indian Forest, Plain and Hill by C.E.M.Russell, 1900, pp 459-462

THE .303 SPORTING RIFLE
The author has had no opportunity of trying the 303 at game, but he was delighted with a double rifle of this bore by Messrs. Holland and Holland, Limited, which he used at the running deer in the N.R.A. meeting of 1898.

Many other sportsmen have, however, used this charming little weapon on many kinds of game, and they appear to be unable to say too much in its praise. The following letter from that mighty hunter, Mr. F. C. Selous, shows his opinion of the rifle, and of Messrs. Holland's peg bullet used therein.

......
BULUWAYO, August 17th, 1895.
DEAR MR. HOLLAND, I have now shot with the little .303 rifle you made for me the following animals:

3 Sable antelope bulls.
1 Sable antelope cow.
3 Black wildebeest.
4 Bontebocks.
3 Blesbucks.
3 Springbucks.
2 Vaal rhebucks.
1 Roan antelope bull.
1 Leopard.
2 Koodoo bulls. 1 Great crested bustard.
2 Sassaby antelopes.
1 Leichtenstein hartebeest bull.
3 Reedbucks.
3 Steinbucks.
2 Duikers.
1 Crocodile.
1 Jackal.
I Rock rabbit.

Briefly, I have found it a most deadly little weapon, and am more than satisfied with it. I killed every animal I hit, with one exception a wart hog, whose hind leg I broke with a running shot This animal I should also have got, but I had first (after wounding it) to go some distance after my horse, and then lost the pig's spoor.

The hollow bullets are excellent, but I like your patent Peg Bullets even better. I killed the roan antelope bull with a shot in the chest at 300 yards. The bullet did not hit any bones (but the chest bones) but it dropped him on the spot and he died almost immediately, as the bullet had passed through his heart. The crocodile I also killed dead with a Peg Bullet behind the shoulder. These bullets not only expand and make a very severe wound in large heavy animals, but they also expand very well in small beasts, such as jackals and rock rabbits.

Please send me 500 more.
Believe me,
Yours very truly,
(Signed) F. C. SELOUS.

P.S. You can make any use you like of this letter, as it is a simple statement of facts, which speak for themselves. I have no trouble in cleaning the rifle.
......

Major David Bruce, A.M.S., in the Field of May 8th, 1897, gives his experiences in Africa with a Holland .303, which are extremely favourable. Although, as he most reasonably and justly remarks, he would not take the same liberties with dangerous game when armed only with so small a rifle as when he had in hand a .577, the Major on one occasion killed a buffalo cow with a single Holland's special bullet from the .303.

Many other sportsmen have testified to the admirable work done by this most powerful, accurate, and handy little weapon, whose flat trajectory, moreover, renders it extremely valuable for long shots.

Although I should consider no battery, for use in India or Africa, complete which did not include a double .303, I would counsel the tyro not to allow his admiration for the weapon to induce him to use it upon large or dangerous animals which are ordinarily killed by much larger rifles.

It is true that many big beasts have been killed with the .303, but experiments in this direction are better avoided, both on the score of cruelty to the animals, and upon that of danger to the sportsman. The .303 in its proper and legitimate use will be found all that can be desired, but it is unreasonable to expect it to do the proper work of a bone-crusher of large bore.

With the object of meeting the views of some sportsmen who desire a weapon of the same type, but more powerful than the .303, Messrs. Holland and Holland have lately built a rifle of .375 bore, the velocity of which is the same as that of the former.


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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
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Loc: GB
Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #102558 - 16/04/08 12:53 AM

If you look at it Jabali Saab it is balistically v.similar to the .30-06 and but for various historical reasons would probably be just as popular. I wonder if the US military had adopted it instead of the .30-06 where it would be now. That being said, I can't really think of a reason for it still existing other than to be used with old rifles chambered for it. It can't do anything the .30-06 can do and the latter is available world wide with an enormous choice of loadings, best, Mike

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #102559 - 16/04/08 12:54 AM

The .303 British is very common here in Canada, specifically BC and Alberta for hunting all species of big game. Mostly used by lower income families, it is also used by those who grew up using a #1 Mark 3 for all their hunting. One such person is a very good friend of mine.
: Currently in my stable there is 1 #3 .303 as well as a #4 that I converted to .312 Express. I am also in the throes of re-barreling an Enfield P14 with a .308" barrel, chambering to standard .303 so the fellow can use 220gr. hornady bullets accurately, as well as perhaps firing factory ammo if need be.
: I suspect Keith has probably shot hundreds of black bear and at least that many Moose and deer with a .303, mostly using the 215gr. RN factory ammo. For handloads he uses a 180gr. bullet of about any manufacture and IMR 4320 for around 2,450fps. he prefers the heavier bullet of 215gr. which is no longer available here, hense the chambing of standard .303 in a .308" barrel.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: DarylS]
      #102590 - 16/04/08 12:47 PM

Thanks for posting Jabali.

When comparing different rounds, I always run them thru the mental grid of common "gun shop talk", such as "a high sectional density bullet outpenetrates a lower sectional density bullet", "lower velocity bullets outpenetrate high velocity bullets", etc. Such commonly repeated assertions do not always pan out to be true.

In fact, many bullets of typical deer and elk calibers penetrate similarly. Not identically, but similarly. There are those that significantly outpenetrate these loads here, but they are typically of premium bullet construction.

Temporary and permanent wound cavities cannot be measured in this media, but hydraulic effect on the first jug can be judged at least subjectively. For my own personal and practical purposes, that's good enough. For example, I want an elk bullet to obliterate the first jug and then go on to be found in the 3rd jug, or more. Some "hard" bullets and cast bullets will give caliber-sized holes thru the first jug and leave it essentially intact. Such performance normally indicates a bullet that will give poor terminal effect on game and leave a poor blood trail.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Nakihunter
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Reged: 13/10/07
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Loc: New Zealand
Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #102591 - 16/04/08 01:12 PM

The 303 has killed millions of deer & also Tahr & Chamois here in New Zealand. The period during & after the second world war saw a decline in hunting & an explosion of feral animal population. When govt. culling was introduced the 303 was king.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.


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Anonymous
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: Nakihunter]
      #102598 - 16/04/08 02:05 PM

Quote:

The 303 has killed millions of deer & also Tahr & Chamois here in New Zealand. The period during & after the second world war saw a decline in hunting & an explosion of feral animal population. When govt. culling was introduced the 303 was king.




Amen to that. I have a few 303's and am in total love with the cartridge.


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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: iqbal]
      #102617 - 16/04/08 08:32 PM

I couldn't find any reference to the .303 in "Maneaters of Kumaon", but maybe in one of the other books? Corbett appears to have used a ".500 modified cordite rifle", a DR .450/.400 and a .275.

J.H. Patterson used a .303 extensively in "The Man-Eaters of Tsavo and Other East African Adventures". He comments on its lack of knock-down power on lions, but I'm not sure that you would reasonable expect it to (!), especially with what were probably unsuitable bullets. Nevertheless he is usually at pains to defend the cartridge and at the end of the book suggests that "the battery, to be sufficient for all needs, should consist of a .450 express, a .303 sporting rifle, and a 12-bore shot gun".


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9.3x57
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Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #102628 - 17/04/08 12:47 AM

One of the pure joys of a .303 is that when the action is a Lee-Enfield, a fellow has 11 shots in what can be an extremely lightweight package. Even milsurps can be sporterized into very light rifles, and if a guy wants to shave ounces, he can grind off the charger humps and add a reduced-capacity magazine. I sold all my Lee-action rifles a while back, along with all my .303 collection of stuff. This thread reminds me of all the fun I had with the rifles and cartridge over the years.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Plains99
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Reged: 10/11/04
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Loc: Dodge City, Kansas, USA
Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #102646 - 17/04/08 06:57 AM

I recently purchased a nice old .303 Enfield sporter with open sights and so far my experience is the same. This rifle is light, responsive, accurate, and holds a bunch of cartridges. It acts a lot like a .308 sporter and seems to do everything a .308 will do. I like it.

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weedypigeon
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Reged: 26/03/08
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Loc: australia
Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: Plains99]
      #102672 - 17/04/08 02:12 PM

I know they work on wild dogs,however I'm not really qualified to comment on them as a hunting rifle. I've got 4 of them and me and my partner put about 100 rounds through them whenever we get to the range. They're just a great rifle to shoot hunting or target practice.

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: More .303 British bullet tests courtesy of 9ThreeXFifty7 [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #106811 - 06/06/08 01:40 AM

.308 220 grain bullet tests

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oupa
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Reged: 01/03/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Maryland,USA
Re: More .303 British bullet tests courtesy of 9ThreeXFifty7 [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #106936 - 07/06/08 06:15 AM

Not to take anything away from the 303 (it is a great caliber) but in reading material such as posted above we should all keep in mind the quantum advances made since the time such was written! Much of the praise heaped on rounds such as the 303, 30-30 ect. in the late 1800's to early 1900's was in comparing them to rather anemic BP rounds. All these have their place and while there are often better choices than some 100 year-old workhorse neither can we afford to overlook proven performance!

Caliber choice is a personal thing. Asking someone else's opinion on "what's best" in a crowd of shooters is a sure way to start a fight!


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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: More .303 British bullet tests courtesy of 9ThreeXFifty7 [Re: oupa]
      #106941 - 07/06/08 07:53 AM

Don't disagree Oupa. The .303 has a proven history, but no-one is denying that technology and experience moves on. It may or may not be the best - as you say calibre choice is very subjective within the bounds of common sense (i.e. use enough gun for the game hunted!). You certainly don't have to search for more modern designs, but IMHO the number of new rounds rammed down our throats every month in the shooting press wears thin very quickly! However the point of the thread was to discuss how effective the round was and is now given advances in bullets and powders, etc. I think 9Three's bullet tests more than prove that the .308 doesn't offer much improvement ballistically, although clearly a better design for a bolt action rifle with a vastly better selection of bullets available. Nevertheless, if you want to shoot a .303 a fresh discussion of its effectiveness may be interesting/useful... Certainly if you have a .303 you already have a very effective hunting rifle and certainly don't need to bin it in favour of the latest Winchester, Remington or Ruger! If you need a new barrel, you are going to need to select a twist rate and bullet weight... And if you want something a bit different to shoot and hunt, the rimmed case is still the best starting point for a Ruger No1 or Hagn falling block (my personal interest)... At the end of the day, if you hunt inside 200 yards, what more do you need? Nevertheless, you still need to know the limitations of that lump of lead you are throwing (but that applies to all calibres)!

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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
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Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: More .303 British bullet tests courtesy of 9ThreeXFifty7 [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #106952 - 07/06/08 11:30 AM

I'll bet good money the only round that has killed more game than the .303 is the .22lr.

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oupa
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Posts: 127
Loc: Maryland,USA
Re: More .303 British bullet tests courtesy of 9ThreeXFifty7 [Re: tophet1]
      #107360 - 14/06/08 01:23 AM

As others have mentioned, the old cartridges - particularly those of military origin - have proved themselves the world over. Given the prevailance of the .303 during the heyday of the British empire and it's presence in such game rich lands we can only guess at the undocumented service it has seen. Along with that which we know from record and the much improved components availble today, it's value as a hunting round cannot be discounted. Are there more suitable calibers for specific game? Assuredly. Along with the 30-06, 7x57, 8x57, 6.5x55, 7.62x54R, etc. the 303 is a classic capable of any but the largest and nastiest of game. Not to discount such as Bell's .275 "elephant rifle" or it's use by Harry Selby's 14 year-old daughter Gail to take her own jumbo 30 or so years ago.

Personally, I love "the old ones." Would I buy or build a hunting rifle in .303? YES! In fact it was one of the final three calibers I considered for an upcoming project. All three centuarians. Much more important than the specific caliber is knowing it's limitations and staying within them.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: More .303 British bullet tests courtesy of 9ThreeXFifty7 [Re: oupa]
      #107409 - 14/06/08 09:59 PM

For longer range shooting than 200 yards and using an Enfield, the .312 Express is a worthwhile re-chamber. Mine was done on a #4, same action as a #5. This action allows somewhat heavier loads than can be delivered from a #3.
: My version of the .312 Express easily does 2,960fps with 180gr. bullets and the standard box magazine handles 5 rounds without modification.
: Some #4's and 5's shoot 220gr. .308 RN's very well.
: The .312 Express is a necked down .350 Rem mag.
: A friend of mine has used the #3's for 40 years on deer, bear and moose - mostly with the 215gr. RN or 220gr. .308".
: His results and faith in the round speak well for it. I am curretnly re-barreling a P-14 for him, with a .308 barrel, but chambered with a standard neck so it will take .303 factory ammo. He thinks highly enough of the round, that he is putting a new barrel on one rifle, with fctory chambering. As I said, that speaks well for the round.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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moltogordo
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Reged: 05/04/08
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Loc: British Columbia Canada
Re: .303 British as a hunting calibre? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #109100 - 06/07/08 02:25 PM

I can't imagine a 220 grain Hornady at about 2200 fps (which is what a friend of mine gets with his homemade Corbin bullets of 210 grains) or so doing anything it hits much good. I think the limitation might be more with the thickness of the brass than the falling block action.

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shinz
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Reged: 11/05/08
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Loc: New Zealand
Re: More .303 British bullet tests courtesy of 9ThreeXFifty7 [Re: DarylS]
      #109150 - 07/07/08 11:26 AM

I have a BSA sporterised P14 with a nice barrel. It shoots better than I can with open sights ( Lyman peep), I'm keen to try it with some 150gr Barnes TSXs, I should be able to load it to approx 2700 fps (26" barrel), & as long as the Barnes will shoot OK in it, I figure that here I would have a load I could take against virtually anything anywhere excepting for the biting & stomping creatures.
Steve.


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