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DoubleD
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Rawbome Martini ID Help
      #345916 - 18/10/20 02:53 PM

I picked up this .303 Sporting Martini this week.





It was made in England for W.Rawbone, Cape Town.



It looks similar to My Greener Martini Sporting rifle but there are just enough subtle differences make me think they are not related.

Here are the marks on the gun, I know what some are. I am hoping you gentleman are more knowledgeable than me and better able to decipher them. I hope will be able to give me some idea when this gune a made and maybe even who made it.

First the caliber markings. These Marking to me indicate the gun is from the very early days of the .303, 1890's. TH rifleing is Metford





Here are the proof and view marks.





This may be a trademark



--------------------
DD, Ret.


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HuviusModerator
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: DoubleD]
      #345919 - 18/10/20 03:57 PM

The proofs on the barrel where it has the charge stamped are Birmingham used 1896-1904.

The other mark is, I think, a knights helmet which is half worn off.
I’ve seen that before somewhere but don’t recall who’s mark it is.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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DoubleD
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: Huvius]
      #345936 - 18/10/20 10:50 PM

Yes Knights helmet. I've seen it also, but where for who?


I will be digging in the books for days?

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DD, Ret.


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greenshoots
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: DoubleD]
      #345942 - 19/10/20 12:23 AM

thats a long barrel for a martini

greenshoots


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93x64mm
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: greenshoots]
      #345959 - 19/10/20 09:22 AM

Nice pick up DD.
Would you have to be careful with a Metford barrel, would it be best to use cast projectiles; or can you use normal jacketed types - albeit NO cordite?


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DoubleD
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: 93x64mm]
      #345962 - 19/10/20 10:19 AM

I don't see any reason to not use jacketed bullets. History says the Metford failing was was the hot erosive gases of cordite, not the rifling or steel of the barrel.


I hadn't given much thought to barrel length in these gun so I went out to the shop and measured mine.

Rawbone .303 28"


Bonehill .303 24"


Barnsley 577/450 28"


Greener 577/500 Express 28"


I. Hollis. Westley Richards Musket No. 2 26"


--------------------
DD, Ret.


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93x64mm
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: DoubleD]
      #345970 - 19/10/20 10:47 PM

Those barrels look just perfect to me, even that short 24" job!
Great collection there DD - that old 577/500 is a beauty!


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DoubleD
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: 93x64mm]
      #345972 - 19/10/20 11:39 PM

That 24 inch Bonehill is a dandy. It handles very nice. That is why I am consider relining it.

The Barnsley 577/450 is the roughest of the group. Bought it at auction as a "fixer upper". Had a piece of foil cartridge stuck in the chamber. It was pretty obvious that additional foil cartridges had been fired right over it. That piece of cartridge was worn and ironed out pretty flat. The bore and neck have a good deal rust. I have .45 cal Henry barrel liner, that I may have installed. Of course I also have a 577/450 reamer

I will find out this morning if the Metford rifling in the Rawbone is wore out and/or will shoot jacketed bullets.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (20/10/20 01:57 AM)


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Ripp
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: DoubleD]
      #345977 - 20/10/20 05:32 AM

Thats a great find Double D..

Congrats..
and thx for posting

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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DoubleD
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: Ripp]
      #346051 - 22/10/20 04:28 AM

This gun is so loaded with history. Made in England for W. Rawbone, Cape Town. Given this gun looks a lot like a Greener and knowing the story of Greener's relationship with Rawbone, history, history, history! Wow.

Took the rifle to the range yesterday.Fired some Remington UMC 174 gr. FMJ. First shot, slightly protruding primer. Second shot, extracted so easily the cartridge ejected out and on to the bench then rolled onto the ground. Third shot smoke came out of the action. Opened the action and got more smoke. I could see the primer pierced. Pulled the case out and found partial head separation. Checked the other two cases and all three show signs of head separation.

First thought excessive headspace. Slight yes, and off center striker impact--all pretty common for .303 Martini's

Something looked odd however.



Brought the gun home and slugged the bore, .303. Yep two different calipers and two different slugs. Polygonal rifling-Metford of course. .311 bullets in .303 bore

The odd look is excessive pressure.

History lesson time.

Proofs and marking put this rifle in the time frame 1890 to 1900.

Researching Just found, this paragraph in Winfer’s book, volume 3..

“The exact caliber to be adopted was not settled to a later date, for in 1887 the British were still continuing tests with the Swiss .298 bore barrels concurrently with Metford rifled barrels in .303, .307, and .310 bores.”

This barrel is a Metford.

History lesson continues.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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93x64mm
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: DoubleD]
      #346070 - 22/10/20 11:07 PM

The Martini is certainly good for gas blow back & leaks then Douglas!
So if I'm reading this right you only have a .303" groove diameter barrel, if so then its certainly a squeeze down from .311!
From your first fired case it appears you may have a fair bit of headspace, I thought Martini's had (normally) 5-10 thou - but that certainly appears to be a fair bit more than that!


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DarylS
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: 93x64mm]
      #346072 - 23/10/20 03:31 AM

I agree, there is a headspace problem with that ammo. Now, if there is still a headspace problem with factory commercial hunting ammo, then it is a problem that should be addressed.
A .303 groove dia. is a serious difference from the nominal .311" to .315" of most .303's I've known. That is a problem,
but only if the chamber neck will not allow the case neck to expand and release the bullet. In the first case fired, the primer itself shows there is likely enough room provided for this. A simple test is to insert a .303" bullet into a fired case mouth. If it goes in easily, there is sufficient room to safely fire oversized bullets.

Saami suggested headspace is set for maximum headspace at .006", while I think the CIP laws are for a max. of .307".

This rifle's first shot displays much more than that - looking like .025", maybe .030". That is excessive and why the cases are attempting to separate.

The first firing shows the case held "mostly" in the chamber until the pressure dropped. That there is a slight 'ring' shows there was some movement to the rear, thus the amount the primer is protruding is not the full value of the headspace slop.
The second case shows more stretch at the web and thus the re-seated primer is flatter.
The third case shows even more stretch and the unsupported primer could not withstand the pressure against the very end of the firing pin still and thus pierced.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DoubleD
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: 93x64mm]
      #346073 - 23/10/20 03:32 AM

Yes .311 bullets in .303 groove barrel.

Yes some head space. I measured and reported the head space. I am not comfortable with these measurements as my feeler gauge blades are wider than the case head and may be reading against the extractor. But that backed out primer does indicate excess head space.

That is not all that uncommon in the Martini

New MH failed when headspace exceeded .010.

Excessive headspace will separate case heads and often pierce primers. It doesn't flatten primers like this. This flattening only comes from excessive pressure.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (23/10/20 03:35 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: DarylS]
      #346074 - 23/10/20 03:33 AM

The headspace problem can be addressed most easily by necking the cases up to .356" on a .358 expander button, then necking them back
down in a FL .303 die to properly position the shoulder for that rifle's chamber.

In firing this time, there is no headspace "slop" & the cases will not stretch at the web. It is best to use new brass (non-stretched) for this.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DoubleD
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: DarylS]
      #346076 - 23/10/20 03:43 AM

Because of the rotating block, and because the top of the block scribes a larger arc than the center of the block, it is difficult to head space off the shoulder in a Martini. At minimum the top of the breech block will drag across the head of the cartridge when the breech block is closed, at worse the block won't close.

SAAMI specs are for guns other than Martini, a greater gap is need for the rotating block thus the .010 figure.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (23/10/20 03:48 AM)


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DoubleD
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: DoubleD]
      #346077 - 23/10/20 03:49 AM

See second to last paragraph of page 8 for chamber gauging.



--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (23/10/20 03:50 AM)


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DoubleD
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: DoubleD]
      #346214 - 27/10/20 12:37 AM

Well here it is only four days since I ordered, .303 diameter bullets, new unfired .303 British brass and a .303 bushing neck sizing die.

Midway sent out the brass the same day I ordered and it was delivered Saturday. Not bad for being ordered last Thursday.

So why am I typing? Bored, impatient....yep hurry up stuff and get here.


I have also been contemplating what do with this rifle once I get it shooting and I move on to the next rifle. Deer hunt most likely next year, for sure.

Right now all the guns that I have are logged in an inventory and then tagged with a inventory number from the Excel spreadsheet. I will of course make notes about this rifle and what it is on the spreadsheet. The lawyer said do this for Estate planning.

I have been thinking I may also write a history as I know it detail what I have learned about this rifle. Print that up and put it in the butt of the rifle for a future owner. Over the years I have discovered a couple of these notes. They were just names and addresses. But always fun to find. It would also serve to warn a future owner about his rifle and tell them, it is not what it appears to be, like I thought. Might keep them for hurting themselves and the rifle.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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DoubleD
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: DoubleD]
      #346224 - 27/10/20 07:40 AM

The Hawk bullets showed up in the afternoon mail. Order Thursday, delivered by Mail on Monday NJ to OK. Pretty impressive getting order out by Hawk, moving the package by mail. 4 days over a week end.

Now where is the neck sizing die?

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DD, Ret.


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DoubleD
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: DoubleD]
      #346955 - 19/11/20 12:20 PM

I got the CH4D neck sizing insert die and squeeze the .303 British necks down to hold a .304 180 gr. Hawk Bullet. I used beginning load data for a 180 Gr. Sierra bullet and loaded 3 rounds.

Went out to the range this afternoon and fired the three rounds.

No problem. No pierced primer, no head separation. Brass fired, extracted and eject easily.



When I got home I tried to insert a .311 bullet into the fired case necks and it would not go.

Now to build some loads for the this gun.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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DarylS
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: DoubleD]
      #346956 - 19/11/20 12:41 PM

Sounds good. How did they shoot or were you just checking function?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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93x64mm
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: DoubleD]
      #346965 - 19/11/20 06:00 PM

Quote:

I got the CH4D neck sizing insert die and squeeze the .303 British necks down to hold a .304 180 gr. Hawk Bullet. I used beginning load data for a 180 Gr. Sierra bullet and loaded 3 rounds.

Went out to the range this afternoon and fired the three rounds.

No problem. No pierced primer, no head separation. Brass fired, extracted and eject easily.



When I got home I tried to insert a .311 bullet into the fired case necks and it would not go.

Now to build some loads for the this gun.




Wow!
Those ordinary .303 British 174gn FMJ must have had a long ogive, enough to just chamber DD.
They must have raised the pressure quite substantially to say the least!
For some reason I just can't grasp why the first cases almost separated; these last lot don't appear to have protruding primers or show excessive headspace.........what am I missing here?
Great to see that you have it going mate, no wonder you were chaffing at the bit!


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Tom_H
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: 93x64mm]
      #346985 - 20/11/20 09:45 AM

It would be interesting to see a chamber cast, but in lieu of that, what was the o.d. of the necks and what size slug would fit in the necks of the first fired cases?

I have had fired cases that wouldn't fit the bullet that they fired, but that was due to the pressure of the load and the neck didn't fully expand.

Was the length of the case over on the Remington cases(not that you can tell at this point)? Could the case have pushed into the throat compounding the bore issue and spiking pressure?

All of that aside, beautiful rifle and I am also curious about your range report with the Hawk slugs.
Good shooting.

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny


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DarylS
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: Tom_H]
      #346989 - 20/11/20 12:42 PM

I see a primer protruding .010" or so. Generally means pressure under 35,00psi (or CUP?) Just an observation.
I am assuming a .304" Hawke bullet would fit back into the fired cases.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DoubleD
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: DarylS]
      #347009 - 21/11/20 06:06 AM

Double post when I was having internet problem this afternoon, trying edit the post.

Edited by DoubleD (21/11/20 11:54 AM)


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DoubleD
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Re: Rawbome Martini ID Help [Re: DoubleD]
      #347010 - 21/11/20 06:08 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Sounds good. How did they shoot or were you just checking function?




Checking function, I guess you would say. Just aimed towards the gong and fire. Didn't hear any clangs, but deaf ears without hearing aids and wearing ear protection I couldn't hear church bells while standing in the belfry.
Quote:

It would be interesting to see a chamber cast, but in lieu of that, what was the o.d. of the necks and what size slug would fit in the necks of the first fired cases?

I have had fired cases that wouldn't fit the bullet that they fired, but that was due to the pressure of the load and the neck didn't fully expand.




Pressure is a factor in this case but due to over size bullets in small bore. Check this spread sheet.



Quote:

Was the length of the case over on the Remington cases(not that you can tell at this point)? Could the case have pushed into the throat compounding the bore issue and spiking pressure?




There is no evidence this a factor. One thing I have noticed is the the factory .303 British cartridge will not fully chamber when dropped in the chamber. A light push and the cartridge clicks in to the chamber.

Quote:

All of that aside, beautiful rifle and I am also curious about your range report with the Hawk slugs.
Good shooting.

Tom




The only purpose of the Hawk bullet at this point was to fit the groove diameter. Now that the seems to have worked-load developing time.


Quote:

I see a primer protruding .010" or so. Generally means pressure under 35,00psi (or CUP?) Just an observation.
I am assuming a .304" Hawke bullet would fit back into the fired cases.




Optical illusion no protrusion of primers in the .304 bullet test loads. Tested just too be sure with straight edge.


Here is a comparison of the .303 British factory loads, back row and .304 test loads from.



That back row shows classic pressure signs. Protruding primer, flatten primer, punctured primer and separation of head.

Protruding primercan indicate high pressure on the low end of the scale or excessive headspace. Protruding primers do not alway mean pressure Protruding primer do not always mean headspace. They are just indicators that must be considered in the entire package.

Look at the spread sheet above and see head expansion.

Primer can protrude at any pressure, but what I think you mean is flattening, I have never seen a pressure designation associated with flattening, just that it is usually associated with higher pressures.

Front row, primers are still rounded. No pressure signs.

I have one additional test I am going to do. The factory ammo I used was RP 180 gr. Core-lokt .303 British using .311 bullets.

I have one round of that ammo left. I am going to pull the 180 gr. 311 bullet and replace it with the .304 180 gr. Hawk bullet




--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (21/11/20 11:55 AM)


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