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the 577/450 is the most powerful of the old black powder military cartridge, iirc fire a 500 grain bullet with 90 grains blackpowder. allways wonder why it dont get more attention as a hunting cartridge because its a blackpowder express.

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Interesting the ballistics are given on the net as a 480 gr projectile pushed by either 85 grs of powder for 1315 fps/400 mps velocity.

The US contemporary of the .45/70, 500 grs projectile, 70 grs powder and 1300 fps.

Why is not more velocity achieved for the .577/450 with 15 to 20 grs more powder?

As has been remarked before on these and other forums, we endlessly hear of the 'great killing power' of the .45/70 even on cape buffalo, yet no one hunts with the 'ineffective' and 'sub-powered' .577/450?

Both seem equivalent and certainly useful for hunting medium sized game with reasonable shots.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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My .577/450 "wall hanger", a Rosier Martini-Henry Sporting Rifle from 1875. It was first bought as an antique "wall hanger". I was also looking at a mil Martini-Henry carbine in very good condition. Should have bought BOTH with hindsight. But money ....

Later I decided to register the rifle and see if it could be got shooting. Never have. So it is not a wall hanger now, a safe queen.

One day will shoot it. Maybe hunt something with it. Would be fun to have it shooting.



http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2418&an=&page=0&vc=1

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look for reloading stuff, die set, brass, bullets!

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True, Was thinking of several projects and first things first. Will start a new thread.

I have some brass. Bought the brass with my .450 brass from Bertrams years ago and both ere the most expensive brass category.

Need dies and bullets and whatever powder is suitable, may or may not have.

New thread, as I have others to get shooting, higher priority.

PS While I am interested, one reason it has not happened is it has never been a priority. Good to be able to shoot. But was bought as a wall hanger. I registered it for political reasons, ie running for the Senate and the risk if police decided it should have been registered.

As for NE, my interest has always been HUNTING. I set up the forums as a safari and and big game international hunting forums. Especially using big bore double rifles. all this other emphasis has come from elsewhere. I like having my main rifles and being able to hunt with them.

In my reloading projects thread, the first two items are actually of more interest, getting all my Mannlichers, Steyrs, Mausers and Combination guns and modern double rifles shooting. Way too many. And the WR 10-bore. As I want to hunt buffalo with it.

Reloading for me is just a means to an end.

The M-H a project to shoot paper with. Maybe some ferals if I am lucky to get a new property somewhere.

But yes, cool to have old vintage rifles shooting. Will need some advice along the way with them.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (14/06/20 12:26 AM)

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I have a couple 577-450s and a 303. OK Ive seen Zulu and Zulu Dawn a few times too. My plan is to hunt (Wild Boar) with them one day. My gunsmith says they are Ok but not great. He thinks theyd be fine for BP loads. Ive got brass and dies, plus Ive found a guy selling his modern production 577-450 loads.

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Your Gunsmith is right and wrong. It depends how you are hunting. In a blind or bayed up with digs, I would use a Martini. Stalking or jump shooting, probably not. Out of a helicopter, nope.

I use the Martinis big and small for hunting.







and thousands of round through the little Martini's.

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Ive also got a Citadel short rifle in 303 thats been "bubba'd". The gun looks Ok but the sights are definitely F'd. I think the sights can be fixed or replaced.

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Last on my list is a EG Martini action, that I bought as a complete action and Im having built with a new 303 barrel. My plan is for the final rifle to look like a period Gentlemen's sporting gun. I would have done this one in 577-450 but I couldnt find anyone with a reamer for that cartridge.

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the 577/450 is the most powerful of the old black powder military cartridge, iirc fire a 500 grain bullet with 90 grains blackpowder. allways wonder why it dont get more attention as a hunting cartridge because its a blackpowder express.

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There was a thread on another forum about a bunch of guys in So Afrika, who get together every year for a historic hunt. The guys dress and camp period and hunt period. Between that and an early scene from the movie Zulu where Michael Cain is hunting a leopard with his Martini, Ive been hooked.

I believe the ORIGINAL loading of 577-450 was with an all lead 500 gr bullet. The lighter bullets (480 etc) came with jacketed bullets.

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John,
DoubleD is the Martini Guru, if you can get him to chime in it will be more than worth your while & everyone else as well!.
He is a treasure trove of reloading data, cartridge information & frankly everything Martini!

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I was about to get my MH running when all the virus crap landed on our doorstep & so am in limbo once again.
My hope is to get out soon with a mate to a property & trial a few different calibers, especially my old martini.
Will let you know how I go.

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I think one of the problems with a falling block action and the Martini in particular is it doesn't have much leverage in lowering the breach block, as pressures increase the primer has a tendency to flow into the firing pin hole which will lock up the block.

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I have had that problem with a 310 Cadet I have that has been re-barreled to a .218 Mashburn Bee, even though the block has been bushed. I had to use the hardest primer cup I could find to stop the problem.

Bob

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Pretty sure it the original loading was 85gr. musket powder and a paper patched 480gr. RN bullet.

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The soft bullet will slug up to fit the tubes, which ranged from about .459" to .463" groove dia.
If shooting grooved lubricated lead, one needs an oversize mould most times. They pretty much have to fit the grooves or even being a bit larger is best.

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That soft bullet won't reach that .464 cylinder section until it has passes 8 inches from the breech end. In the mean time it starts it obturation in a section of smooth barrel at the case mouth that is .5075" and .468" groove when it hits rifling. Dr. Mann studied obturation and how to control it. The problem he discovered was that obturation was not uniform, but rather at times lopsided.



Edited by DoubleD (25/06/20 01:00 AM)

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While looking on another board at some fully decked out AR platform chambered in 7.62 x 39 and built for hog gun.

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What a ridiculous scope on that rifle.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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would you say the musket no. 2 is the better hunting cartridge in the end
better than the bigger 577/450?

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Yes and no.

No in the sense that they both use similar bullets and at similar velocities, not better, for the most part equal.

Yes in the sense of being able to make it shoot more accurately with a lot less effort, Musket No.2 is better, "in my opinion".

15-16 years ago when I researched this cartridge I learned both Gibbs and Westley Richards made variations of this cartridge in an attempt to to compete for the eastern European market in direct competition to the 577/450. In long discussion on this cartridge my friend Gert Claes we came to the conclusion that variances between Gibbs and WR Musket are very small, but indeed they are different cartridges. The differences are so small that one can be fired in another Both have ballistics similar to the Martini. The .45 Turkish Peabody-Roumanian Peabody are all minor variations of these cartridges.

The case was a drawn brass case to start and never was a foil case. Case volume and powder charge volume are much closer together than in the Martini and the issue with that are reduced.

I have several guns in this cartridge. The Turkish Martini shot to the sights-I looked for some of the targets I shot back then and couldn't find any.

The Hollis sporting rifle, I need to get back out to the range and shoot. I found the targets I was shooting in preparation for my Moose hunt two years ago.

At first glance the targets are not all that impressive. But consider I was having trouble with double vision and in need of cataract surgery at the time.





While spread horizontally, vertically they are very tight.

Same thing occurred shooting the Greener 500 Express.



The first two show spread horizontally. But when I concentrated and used the darkest of the double image, the gun grouped. First two shots center of mass, second pair 6 o'clock hold.

100 yard targets, all.

I have a New Mexico Elk hunt this year. I might go work with the Hollis some more. I have had cataract surgery and no longer have double vision.

I may try to have that little Belgium Martini pictured above ready to go for that hunt also, we'll see.

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DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (27/06/20 11:27 PM)

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While looking on another board at some fully decked out AR platform chambered in 7.62 x 39 and built for hog gun.

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What a ridiculous scope on that rifle.

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Aw yes John, ridiculous. Very polite of you.

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DD, Ret.

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While looking on another board at some fully decked out AR platform chambered in 7.62 x 39 and built for hog gun.

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What a ridiculous scope on that rifle.

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Aw yes John, ridiculous. Very polite of you.

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Is it yours? Oops. Sorry. Mate, Its huge! Longer than the rifle. Almost. But if you like it. I'm guessing you use it for sniping little varmints. I like the rifle. That rifle might come in handy these days soon.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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While looking on another board at some fully decked out AR platform chambered in 7.62 x 39 and built for hog gun.

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What a ridiculous scope on that rifle.

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Aw yes John, ridiculous. Very polite of you.

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Is it yours? Oops. Sorry. Mate, Its huge! Longer than the rifle. Almost. But if you like it. I'm guessing you use it for sniping little varmints. I like the rifle. That rifle might come in handy these days soon.

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Ahahahahaha! Hell no John, not mine.

I have used shades on my scopes in the past but only in early morning or late afternoon shooting prairie dogs and shooting in the direction of the sun. And on bench bolt guns. The rest of the time, the shade stayed in the shooting box.

I will confess, I do have AR's. Here are mine.



That is a shadow not a shade on the front of the scopes.

And I will also confess, only the top one has ever been shot. The three lower ones are unfired. I don't like AR's, they seem awkward and clumsy to me, in the same category as a Snider.

I prefer Martini's when I can, even with big scopes.



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DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (28/06/20 10:33 PM)

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thank you lancaster
we do not have many cape buffalos in south carolina,but lots of squirrels.i like martini action too,but i wanted a rimfire.only rimfires are legal for small game in my state.the martini zeller action is not the strongest martini action,used a lot for british rook rifles,but plenty strong for a .22lr and a lot of fun to build.22 hornet or 25/20 would have been nice too,but worthless for me here as a bunny gun.

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Well done dreyse54, certainly a project to be proud of being your own.
I thought the old .25-20 or .32-20 would make a great small game gun, much more finicky than a .17 rimfire - but I reckon it'd do just fine for squirrels.....perhaps TOO good!

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Thank you John. Yes they are in the right place.
I had this little rifle built for me in 1985
Doug Barnes was the gun smith
Ken Davis was the stock maker
Both of them are from Western Australian
The barrel came from Sprinter Arms. South Australia
The wood is Tasmanian Blackwood from an aged piece that Ken had at the time
The butt plate came from an I Hollis shotgun that Ken skeletonized
This little rifle is one of my favorites and has killed hundreds of rabbits a few foxes and feral cats
Back then I would leave work at 5 drive 100ks south of Perth spotlight all night clean them at dawn and drive home this used to happen about every three months.
Those day I didn't know what was thinner me or my wallet so I used to eat a lot of game meat including our national emblem

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Very nice Cadet there sbs470 - that Tassie Blackwood is a very good stock timber.
I certainly would love to get a piece one day for another project I would like to do - but on a full size Martini.
Nothing wrong with the humble rabbit or a bit of 'roo either!

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I may be able to help you with that......I'm starting to collect a few bits of Tassie Blackwood for stocks.

Roger

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From u-tube Lancaster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oaf5ugMw7KM

I though though that I'd seen somewhere the extractor had an oval shape to it where the hinge pin went, tipping it as it started the ejection process?
If any one can show you this it will be DD

Nice buck shot by your GD DD - no wonder you're proud!

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From u-tube Lancaster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oaf5ugMw7KM

I though though that I'd seen somewhere the extractor had an oval shape to it where the hinge pin went, tipping it as it started the ejection process?
If any one can show you this it will be DD

Nice buck shot by your GD DD - no wonder you're proud!

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Saw one once, on a Cadet action, made for rimless .222. The normal rimmed extractor had a small spring loaded blade in the middle/bottom of the regular extractor's surface.

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