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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 592
Loc: Gettysburg
Anybody hunting with a Martini
      #342158 - 12/06/20 09:33 AM

I have a couple 577-450s and a 303. OK Ive seen Zulu and Zulu Dawn a few times too. My plan is to hunt (Wild Boar) with them one day. My gunsmith says they are Ok but not great. He thinks theyd be fine for BP loads. Ive got brass and dies, plus Ive found a guy selling his modern production 577-450 loads.

Ive also got a Citadel short rifle in 303 thats been "bubba'd". The gun looks Ok but the sights are definitely F'd. I think the sights can be fixed or replaced.

Last on my list is a EG Martini action, that I bought as a complete action and Im having built with a new 303 barrel. My plan is for the final rifle to look like a period Gentlemen's sporting gun. I would have done this one in 577-450 but I couldnt find anyone with a reamer for that cartridge.

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #342163 - 12/06/20 10:34 AM

My youngest daughter killed her first wild pig with a Martini Cadet rechambered to .32-40. The factory-load 165gr bullets are too heavy/long/slow to stabilize with the .310 Cadet twist rate but resized 150gr 8mm projies did the job. Practice and safety training was all done with the 90gr Nambu pistol bullets from Taipan back in the day: bugger-all recoil and single-shot ejector is the perfect platform for kids and beginners.

Friend of mine uses a Martini Cadet that now wears a stainless .308 barrel from an early mini-thirty Ruger. It is chambered for .30-30 Win: fires and ejects Winchester factory-loads freely all day long!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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lancaster
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: Marrakai]
      #342171 - 12/06/20 01:41 PM

the 577/450 is the most powerful of the old black powder military cartridge, iirc fire a 500 grain bullet with 90 grains blackpowder. allways wonder why it dont get more attention as a hunting cartridge because its a blackpowder express.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: lancaster]
      #342172 - 12/06/20 02:37 PM

Quote:

the 577/450 is the most powerful of the old black powder military cartridge, iirc fire a 500 grain bullet with 90 grains blackpowder. allways wonder why it dont get more attention as a hunting cartridge because its a blackpowder express.




Interesting the ballistics are given on the net as a 480 gr projectile pushed by either 85 grs of powder for 1315 fps/400 mps velocity.

The US contemporary of the .45/70, 500 grs projectile, 70 grs powder and 1300 fps.

Why is not more velocity achieved for the .577/450 with 15 to 20 grs more powder?

As has been remarked before on these and other forums, we endlessly hear of the 'great killing power' of the .45/70 even on cape buffalo, yet no one hunts with the 'ineffective' and 'sub-powered' .577/450?

Both seem equivalent and certainly useful for hunting medium sized game with reasonable shots.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: NitroX]
      #342176 - 12/06/20 02:47 PM



My .577/450 "wall hanger", a Rosier Martini-Henry Sporting Rifle from 1875. It was first bought as an antique "wall hanger". I was also looking at a mil Martini-Henry carbine in very good condition. Should have bought BOTH with hindsight. But money ....

Later I decided to register the rifle and see if it could be got shooting. Never have. So it is not a wall hanger now, a safe queen.

One day will shoot it. Maybe hunt something with it. Would be fun to have it shooting.



http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2418&an=&page=0&vc=1

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: NitroX]
      #342192 - 12/06/20 10:28 PM

There was a thread on another forum about a bunch of guys in So Afrika, who get together every year for a historic hunt. The guys dress and camp period and hunt period. Between that and an early scene from the movie Zulu where Michael Cain is hunting a leopard with his Martini, Ive been hooked.

I believe the ORIGINAL loading of 577-450 was with an all lead 500 gr bullet. The lighter bullets (480 etc) came with jacketed bullets.

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: NitroX]
      #342193 - 12/06/20 10:39 PM

John,
DoubleD is the Martini Guru, if you can get him to chime in it will be more than worth your while & everyone else as well!.
He is a treasure trove of reloading data, cartridge information & frankly everything Martini!
I really admire your piece there mate, it certainly is a looker; shame about the recoil pad, but they certainly do generate a fair old thump so its a vital necessity over the old steel butt plate.
I was about to get my MH running when all the virus crap landed on our doorstep & so am in limbo once again.
My hope is to get out soon with a mate to a property & trial a few different calibers, especially my old martini.
Will let you know how I go.


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aromakr
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Reged: 20/04/11
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Loc: Hamilton, Montana
Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: 93x64mm]
      #342205 - 13/06/20 12:56 AM

I think one of the problems with a falling block action and the Martini in particular is it doesn't have much leverage in lowering the breach block, as pressures increase the primer has a tendency to flow into the firing pin hole which will lock up the block. I have had that problem with a 310 Cadet I have that has been re-barreled to a .218 Mashburn Bee, even though the block has been bushed. I had to use the hardest primer cup I could find to stop the problem.

Bob


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DarylS
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: aromakr]
      #342207 - 13/06/20 01:24 AM

Pretty sure it the original loading was 85gr. musket powder and a paper patched 480gr. RN bullet.
The soft bullet will slug up to fit the tubes, which ranged from about .459" to .463" groove dia.
If shooting grooved lubricated lead, one needs an oversize mould most times. They pretty much have to fit the grooves or even being a bit larger is best.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: DarylS]
      #342214 - 13/06/20 03:51 AM

everything about the 577/450 you ever want to know
ICI catalog




the best load is the 325 grains bullet with 90 grains BP giving a VO of 1600 feet/sec

the 450 BPE 3 1/4" have the 325 grains bullet with 120 grains BP and a Vo of 1775 feet/sec

think its damned near to the 450 BPE

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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TH44
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: lancaster]
      #342218 - 13/06/20 09:02 AM

IIRC the original was .45-70-405, 70 grains BP behind a 405 grain bullet

The 577/450 with 85 grains behind a 480 grain bullet is more powerful, it certainly kicks more with the steel butt plate!
Having read most of the mid to late African hunting books the 577/450 was occasionally used on all game including elephant, even after the introduction of Nitro powders

TH44


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: TH44]
      #342221 - 13/06/20 10:12 AM

Have any of you played with a Gehendra? I know they are only Martinish in appearance.

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lancaster
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: NitroX]
      #342224 - 13/06/20 03:35 PM

Quote:



My .577/450 "wall hanger", a Rosier Martini-Henry Sporting Rifle from 1875. It was first bought as an antique "wall hanger". I was also looking at a mil Martini-Henry carbine in very good condition. Should have bought BOTH with hindsight. But money ....

Later I decided to register the rifle and see if it could be got shooting. Never have. So it is not a wall hanger now, a safe queen.

One day will shoot it. Maybe hunt something with it. Would be fun to have it shooting.



http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=2418&an=&page=0&vc=1




next monday - leave the house and look for reloading stuff, die set, brass, bullets!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: lancaster]
      #342228 - 14/06/20 12:03 AM

Quote:

look for reloading stuff, die set, brass, bullets!




True, Was thinking of several projects and first things first. Will start a new thread.

I have some brass. Bought the brass with my .450 brass from Bertrams years ago and both ere the most expensive brass category.

Need dies and bullets and whatever powder is suitable, may or may not have.

New thread, as I have others to get shooting, higher priority.

PS While I am interested, one reason it has not happened is it has never been a priority. Good to be able to shoot. But was bought as a wall hanger. I registered it for political reasons, ie running for the Senate and the risk if police decided it should have been registered.

As for NE, my interest has always been HUNTING. I set up the forums as a safari and and big game international hunting forums. Especially using big bore double rifles. all this other emphasis has come from elsewhere. I like having my main rifles and being able to hunt with them.

In my reloading projects thread, the first two items are actually of more interest, getting all my Mannlichers, Steyrs, Mausers and Combination guns and modern double rifles shooting. Way too many. And the WR 10-bore. As I want to hunt buffalo with it.

Reloading for me is just a means to an end.

The M-H a project to shoot paper with. Maybe some ferals if I am lucky to get a new property somewhere.

But yes, cool to have old vintage rifles shooting. Will need some advice along the way with them.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (14/06/20 12:26 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: NitroX]
      #342229 - 14/06/20 12:08 AM

As this thread is titled "Hunting with Martinis", I tunnel visioned onto the .450.

I have two other Martinis, both Cadets. One is ready to go, bought it with some reloaded ammo, a .222 Rimmed. Plan was to give it a go this weekend. Too wet today, maybe tomorrow, but have a birthday to go to now, so unlikely. A weekkday should be possible.

The other Martini-Cadet was bought as a wall hanger, a Colonial Victorian Police rifle in .297/250 or .230? Hard to see what is imprinted. Ahmed has a shooting rifle in the same cartridge I believe, I would like to get that one shooting. I think it can take .22 Hornet brass resized.

The .222 Rimmed, does not have a scope. It needs one. Can have a go with it on rabbits with open sights and hope for the best. At least fire a shot or two.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: NitroX]
      #342243 - 14/06/20 01:41 AM

In the other thread, DD notes much larger bullets than I did.
I don't remember what mine measured - likely undersized bullets is why my .577/450 shot poorly. No moulds available back in the 1970's of adequate size. At that time, I did not know about undersized paper patched bullets of pure lead slugging up to fit.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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aromakr
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Reged: 20/04/11
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Loc: Hamilton, Montana
Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: DarylS]
      #342255 - 14/06/20 07:46 AM

On the subject of Martini's, does anyone know where I can obtain a cocking lever for a cadet????

Bob


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windy
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Reged: 19/07/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Wet side of Washington State, ...
Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: aromakr]
      #342583 - 21/06/20 08:00 AM

I'm in the middle of a cataract surgery set or I'd be out testing loads for the deer season on my newly-rebarreled BSA Martini Cadet in 25-35. Preliminary testing with the old eyes suggested that the new LeverEvolution ammo with the gummy-tips shoots pretty well, and some 60gr BULLET WITH A LIGHT LOAD OF trailboss POWDER loads will do quite nicely for small game opportunities along the way. I may have a report come Christmas-time if the weather and the critters cooperate.
windy

Edited by NitroX (24/06/20 08:00 PM)


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windy
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Reged: 19/07/08
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: windy]
      #342764 - 24/06/20 02:57 PM

That's 60 grain bullets with a light load of trailboss--sorry if anybody got mixed up; 60 grains of trailboss would probably blow up a small cannon!
windy


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: windy]
      #342768 - 24/06/20 08:01 PM

Windy, edited your earlier post so any confusion is avoided.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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93x64mm
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: aromakr]
      #342773 - 24/06/20 10:23 PM

Bob,
Might be best to try here for a cocking lever for a cadet- hopefully you'll find what your looking for; or maybe a few more bits as well!
https://www.ima-usa.com/pages/search-results?q=martini


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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: 93x64mm]
      #342786 - 25/06/20 12:38 AM

This thread has been up for two weeks and I haven't stuck my nose in it. I am slowing down in my old age. I thought I had responded, but just now realize there are two post similar discussion.

Quote:

I have a couple 577-450s and a 303. OK Ive seen Zulu and Zulu Dawn a few times too. My plan is to hunt (Wild Boar) with them one day. My gunsmith says they are Ok but not great. He thinks theyd be fine for BP loads. Ive got brass and dies, plus Ive found a guy selling his modern production 577-450 loads.




Your Gunsmith is right and wrong. It depends how you are hunting. In a blind or bayed up with digs, I would use a Martini. Stalking or jump shooting, probably not. Out of a helicopter, nope.

I use the Martinis big and small for hunting.







and thousands of round through the little Martini's.



Quote:

Ive also got a Citadel short rifle in 303 thats been "bubba'd". The gun looks Ok but the sights are definitely F'd. I think the sights can be fixed or replaced.


Are you sure it's bubba'd. Citadel made some real unusual configurations

Quote:

Last on my list is a EG Martini action, that I bought as a complete action and Im having built with a new 303 barrel. My plan is for the final rifle to look like a period Gentlemen's sporting gun. I would have done this one in 577-450 but I couldnt find anyone with a reamer for that cartridge.




Any greener shotgun action is an action to be avoided for building, they are difficult to work on. Greener's first line of instruction in disassembly of the gun is "Do not Disassemble unless absolutely necessary". I do not like them. If that EG action is the split action-takedown, it is not recommended for centerfire rifle cartridges. The other problem with the Greener shot gun is that they are the ugliest Martini ever made.

Quote:

the 577/450 is the most powerful of the old black powder military cartridge, iirc fire a 500 grain bullet with 90 grains blackpowder. allways wonder why it dont get more attention as a hunting cartridge because its a blackpowder express.




LoC was 85 grains of RFG2 powder and 480 grain.

John Taylor refers several times in book to his gold inlaid short sporting Martini Henry, as one of his favorites for Lion. In my quest to acquire a true Martini Sporting rifle I have found a large number of well worn 577/450-it seems that is there were lots of these, similar to the Rosier pictured. I have found less used examples in other cartridges, but not 577/450.

The Kudu above was shot with 577/450 in ZAR Westley Richards military Rifle. Shot quartering away, the bullet passed completely through the animal hitting just in front of the left hip and exiting through right front shoulder and dropping the animal where it stood.

Will a 45/70 or 577/450 kill buffalo, I have no doubt. Are they great killers, I have doubt. I have heard of Grizzly bear being killed with .22's also, But I would not consider a .22 for Cape buffalo. On the other had were I out in the bush hunting with a .22 and cape buffalo attacked me, they will find a pile of empty .22 casings all around my mangled corpse.

I am currently looking for an example of Martini Sporting rifle in .303. I have found two in Europe greatly over priced. One in France a Bonehill, the seller wasn't willing to export to US. A second rifle a beautiful Army Navy sold gun in Germany was mutilated- rechambered from .303 to 8x57 JRS and the top rib cut for a Schmidt and Bender scope in EAW style Claw mounts. Sacrilege.


Quote:

There was a thread on another forum about a bunch of guys in So Afrika, who get together every year for a historic hunt. The guys dress and camp period and hunt period. Between that and an early scene from the movie Zulu where Michael Cain is hunting a leopard with his Martini, Ive been hooked.

I believe the ORIGINAL loading of 577-450 was with an all lead 500 gr bullet. The lighter bullets (480 etc) came with jacketed bullets.




I am unaware of jacket 577/450 Martini bullets, but it only seems logical and reasonable for there to have been.

The original military bullet was 480 grain. The twist in a military Martini Henry is for a 550 grain bullet. I've seen reference to that group of original style hunter also. Sounds fun.

Quote:

John,
DoubleD is the Martini Guru, if you can get him to chime in it will be more than worth your while & everyone else as well!.
He is a treasure trove of reloading data, cartridge information & frankly everything Martini!




DoubleD- Douglas just found a niche a few years ago and started studing. They told us in College, this is what we should do. it took me almost 20 years to find the niche, 20 years ago.

Quote:


I was about to get my MH running when all the virus crap landed on our doorstep & so am in limbo once again.
My hope is to get out soon with a mate to a property & trial a few different calibers, especially my old martini.
Will let you know how I go.




I am with you here. Being in the high risk group, old-male-heart disease, for this stupid disease and being married to a former widow, my activities are severely curtailed. She says she buried one husband, she isn't burying another. I say, I buried one wife, I'm not burying another. Sounds like one of us is going lay in the back bedroom for a while, until the second one goes. But any way she is very vocal about any activities that might bring me in contact with others.

Quote:

I think one of the problems with a falling block action and the Martini in particular is it doesn't have much leverage in lowering the breach block, as pressures increase the primer has a tendency to flow into the firing pin hole which will lock up the block.




Actually two different issues, but one leads to the other.

The Martini system uses an inertia extractor. You must open the lever with vigor, snap the action open to make it function. It is a poor and weak design.

If you breech the action up to tightly, the cartridge does not have room to expand and contract when fired. To many people try make the cartridge head space off the shoulder or achieve zero head-space. Because the Martini has a rotating breech block, it is near impossible to have zero head-space. There should not be any interference between breech block and barrel/cartridge when the breech is closed. When closed there should be a gap between breech face and cartridge. That gap, distance between breech face and go head is what is measured. If you use a standard no-go gauge you may get a false reading. Standard breech for the Martini is no more than .010 gap between breech face and head gauge.

And then you add soft primers.

And them you shorten the striker spring to ease trigger pull (wrong way to go about it)

The Martini action is a bundle of stacked tolerance causing problems.

Quote:

I have had that problem with a 310 Cadet I have that has been re-barreled to a .218 Mashburn Bee, even though the block has been bushed. I had to use the hardest primer cup I could find to stop the problem.

Bob




Seems that every .22 K-Hornet I built had this issue. The worst was the one I built for my late wife. Now there is a gun you want to get right, one for a spouse. If wife has problems with a gun you built, you will have problems with wife.

Quote:

Pretty sure it the original loading was 85gr. musket powder and a paper patched 480gr. RN bullet.




As mentioned it was RFG2 and that is Rifle fine Grained supercsript 2.


Quote:

The soft bullet will slug up to fit the tubes, which ranged from about .459" to .463" groove dia.
If shooting grooved lubricated lead, one needs an oversize mould most times. They pretty much have to fit the grooves or even being a bit larger is best.




That soft bullet won't reach that .464 cylinder section until it has passes 8 inches from the breech end. In the mean time it starts it obturation in a section of smooth barrel at the case mouth that is .5075" and .468" groove when it hits rifling. Dr. Mann studied obturation and how to control it. The problem he discovered was that obturation was not uniform, but rather at times lopsided.



Edited by DoubleD (25/06/20 01:00 AM)


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: DoubleD]
      #342802 - 25/06/20 10:33 AM

Double D thanks for the response. I dont doubt your knowledge, and Im certainly on the opposite end of your spectrum. Im trying to gain the knowledge but finding lost of winding false paths along the way.

As for the Greener action, Im not sure Id know a split from a solid (and as the gun is now with the smith in another state I cant give any useful data). I can say I trust the smith doing the work. My first question to him was "is it safe", followed by "what cartridge can we build on it". I wanted 577-450 but settled on 303 for lots of reasons, including finding reamers and proper rifiling. In the end 303 seemed "British" enough.


As for the Citadel; its pretty F'd UP. Both the front and rear sights look as if they had replacement sights JP Welded on top of the original bases. I "think" it can be saved by completely replacing both sights down to the bare barrel. If all else fails Ill replace the barrel.


Im at the point where I know enough to get in trouble; but not enough to know that I dont know that I dont know

Thanks again

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: DoubleD]
      #342806 - 25/06/20 12:06 PM

Hi Douglas, I will definitely be calling upon your knowledge at the appropriate time. Thanks for the post on the subject.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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DoubleD
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Re: Anybody hunting with a Martini [Re: NitroX]
      #342818 - 25/06/20 03:09 PM

This is a split action.



THe bottom of the receiver is split and has a screw that compress the action to hold a shotgun barrel.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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