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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Noble Find Drilling
      #334707 - 22/11/19 05:39 AM

I saw this, can't afford any more guns for a while, and got it as fast as my fingers could pound the keyboard.

It is a Nagel & Menz, Hofbuchesenmaker to Kaiser and King Strasbourg U Baden drilling from 1887 and bears a noble's crest.

It's 16ga and possibly 10.5X47R, and the bores are mirror. I think I can modify 45-70 brass to get the rifle shooting.






Edited by luv2safari (23/11/19 03:51 PM)


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luv2safari
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: luv2safari]
      #334708 - 22/11/19 05:41 AM

more pix





--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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luv2safari
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: luv2safari]
      #334709 - 22/11/19 05:43 AM

last pix






Thank you for letting me share this unique gun.

L2S

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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93x64mm
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: luv2safari]
      #334710 - 22/11/19 07:05 AM

No wonder you did what you did luv2safari!
That is one exquisite piece of kit there - the engraving is superb to say the least!
As it's next custodian you should be justly proud of such a wonderful piece of history.
Speaking of such, it must have an interesting history with a crest on it, if you find out more please post this up.
When you do get a chance I'd suggest a cast of all the chambers & twist rate - as this may point you in certain directions as to paper, brass or plastic hulls; as well as what projectile weigh to use.
As to the 10.5X47R (if you find this correct), can you tell us a bit more about it please?
I'm assuming all loads will be with BP?


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: 93x64mm]
      #334711 - 22/11/19 07:38 AM

Excellent purchase, one of the nicest hammer drillings that I have seen. Super engraving and very tastefully finished. You should be very happy with that. Well done.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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tinker
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #334712 - 22/11/19 08:57 AM

Very nice!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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TH44
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: tinker]
      #334714 - 22/11/19 10:04 AM

As others have said, that is a seriously good piece of kit
As well as the engraving, the fences are classic percussion style, as good as it gets

How do you shift to the rifle barrel? (Although I like them very much, I have not handled a drilling or vierling)

TH44


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Wayne59
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: TH44]
      #334715 - 22/11/19 11:48 AM

Their is a small discreet lever made as pare of the right hammer. the firing pin is under the top right shot gun barrel firing pin.. You can see it in the third pic. You have to look at the ear on the right hammer very closely to see the lever.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: Wayne59]
      #334716 - 22/11/19 11:54 AM

I like that a lot!

Thanks for sharing.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: Wayne59]
      #334717 - 22/11/19 01:44 PM

Good spotting, Wayne. I'd have missed that.
Very nice, indeed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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luv2safari
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: Wayne59]
      #334726 - 22/11/19 04:30 PM

Quote:

Their is a small discreet lever made as pare of the right hammer. the firing pin is under the top right shot gun barrel firing pin.. You can see it in the third pic. You have to look at the ear on the right hammer very closely to see the lever.





Someone know his guns!

Spot on...


RST here makes good quality 2 1/2" paper shells with low (1125fps) velocity and pressure nitro loads with lubricated fiber wads that work great in these old hunters. Since the bores are mirror, and they're undamaged, I have no qualms in shooting this ammo in her.

The 10.5X47R will have 777 as powder, measured by volume as compared to black. There is little if any information on the 10.5X47R, so I'll approach the loads carefully. Making ammo for it will be a challenge, it appears.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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luv2safari
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: 93x64mm]
      #334727 - 22/11/19 04:35 PM

Quote:

No wonder you did what you did luv2safari!
That is one exquisite piece of kit there - the engraving is superb to say the least!
As it's next custodian you should be justly proud of such a wonderful piece of history.
Speaking of such, it must have an interesting history with a crest on it, if you find out more please post this up.
When you do get a chance I'd suggest a cast of all the chambers & twist rate - as this may point you in certain directions as to paper, brass or plastic hulls; as well as what projectile weigh to use.
As to the 10.5X47R (if you find this correct), can you tell us a bit more about it please?
I'm assuming all loads will be with BP?




I have seen this monogram before, but I can't find my information on the Prussian nobility monograms.

The coronet is in keeping with a Baronial title, I believe. I'll be researching it further, until I find an answer or a dead end.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: luv2safari]
      #334732 - 22/11/19 11:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

No wonder you did what you did luv2safari!
That is one exquisite piece of kit there - the engraving is superb to say the least!
As it's next custodian you should be justly proud of such a wonderful piece of history.
Speaking of such, it must have an interesting history with a crest on it, if you find out more please post this up.
When you do get a chance I'd suggest a cast of all the chambers & twist rate - as this may point you in certain directions as to paper, brass or plastic hulls; as well as what projectile weigh to use.
As to the 10.5X47R (if you find this correct), can you tell us a bit more about it please?
I'm assuming all loads will be with BP?




I have seen this monogram before, but I can't find my information on the Prussian nobility monograms.

The coronet is in keeping with a Baronial title, I believe. I'll be researching it further, until I find an answer or a dead end.




Quote:

Kaiser and King Strasbourg U Baden




Hi luv2safari. Nice drilling. Thanks for posting and sharing it with us. I was wondering about the crest, the Kaiser was of course Prussian. If the crest is from the Baden Baden / Strassbourg area, he wouldn't have been Prussian? Unless that Principality / region was a Prussian possession? Perhaps one of our knowledgeable German members would know, or larcher who lives very close by in what is now France. The border changing there again and again.

luv2safari, I can't remember, did I buy just barrels from you or the Tikka 512? Used the U/O shotgun on a Naval Military Club twilight shoot last night. I think it was barrels on reflection. Have resorted to the U/O shotgun as I am not shooting well with my side by sides recently.

Good to see the clays breaking this time.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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kuduae
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: NitroX]
      #334745 - 23/11/19 07:06 AM

Again, I have to disappoint an overoptimistic American. The shape of a crown indicated a rank in European nobility. This crown indicates the rank of a quite common Freiherr or Baron, the second lowest rank of nobility, called Gentry in England. It would have been an insult to engrave such a humble, inappropiate crown on a gun ordered by any member of a royal, dukal or even countly family.
"Hofbüchsenmacher" was a title given to many upgrade gunshops. It means nothing more than the British phrase "By Appointment to His Majesty the King", good for advertisement only. Nagel & Menz had gunshops in Baden – Baden and Strasbourg. While Baden was THE spa of the international aristocracy, Strasbourg in Alsace – Lorraine was part of the "Reichsland Elsass – Lothringen" from 1871 to 1918, a territry subject directly to Kaiser Wilhem I.
The drilling with wit the up-down swinging right hammer nose is to the early patented design by Immanuel Meffert, Suhl. So it was most likely made by Meffert for Nagel & Menz.


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kuduae
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: kuduae]
      #334746 - 23/11/19 07:25 AM

Some early drilling designs. From the 1881 Waffenschmied, Suhl.


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luv2safari
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: NitroX]
      #334748 - 23/11/19 07:48 AM

Greetings my friend.

It was just the barrel set that you got from me.

Any help with identifying the monogram by members would be greatly appreciated.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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luv2safari
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: kuduae]
      #334749 - 23/11/19 07:53 AM

Quote:

Again, I have to disappoint an overoptimistic American. The shape of a crown indicated a rank in European nobility. This crown indicates the rank of a quite common Freiherr or Baron, the second lowest rank of nobility, called Gentry in England. It would have been an insult to engrave such a humble, inappropiate crown on a gun ordered by any member of a royal, dukal or even countly family.
"Hofbüchsenmacher" was a title given to many upgrade gunshops. It means nothing more than the British phrase "By Appointment to His Majesty the King", good for advertisement only. Nagel & Menz had gunshops in Baden – Baden and Strasbourg. While Baden was THE spa of the international aristocracy, Strasbourg in Alsace – Lorraine was part of the "Reichsland Elsass – Lothringen" from 1871 to 1918, a territry subject directly to Kaiser Wilhem I.
The drilling with wit the up-down swinging right hammer nose is to the early patented design by Immanuel Meffert, Suhl. So it was most likely made by Meffert for Nagel & Menz.




I figured the coronet was Baronial. I should have said it bears a noble's crest. Would have that been more correct? We Americans divested of nobility in the 1780s... . We're a bit ignorant on the subject. Now it's our "entitled" political class who are sure they're nobility.

I very much appreciate your input and find it invaluable. The knowledge here is a great resource, for sure.

Edited by luv2safari (23/11/19 03:53 PM)


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Buchsemann
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: luv2safari]
      #334755 - 23/11/19 01:18 PM

luv2safari,

Beautiful find, congratulations!

I'm looking forward to reading of your bringing it back to life. Most especially in the field but first, a range report.

Cheers!

Mark

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: luv2safari]
      #334756 - 23/11/19 01:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Again, I have to disappoint an overoptimistic American. The shape of a crown indicated a rank in European nobility. This crown indicates the rank of a quite common Freiherr or Baron, the second lowest rank of nobility, called Gentry in England. It would have been an insult to engrave such a humble, inappropiate crown on a gun ordered by any member of a royal, dukal or even countly family.
"Hofbüchsenmacher" was a title given to many upgrade gunshops. It means nothing more than the British phrase "By Appointment to His Majesty the King", good for advertisement only. Nagel & Menz had gunshops in Baden – Baden and Strasbourg. While Baden was THE spa of the international aristocracy, Strasbourg in Alsace – Lorraine was part of the "Reichsland Elsass – Lothringen" from 1871 to 1918, a territry subject directly to Kaiser Wilhem I.
The drilling with wit the up-down swinging right hammer nose is to the early patented design by Immanuel Meffert, Suhl. So it was most likely made by Meffert for Nagel & Menz.




I figured the coronet was Baronial. I should have said it bears a nobel's crest. Would have that been more correct? We Americans divested of nobility in the 1780s... . We're a bit ignorant on the subject. Now it's our "entitled" political class who are sure they're nobility.

I very much appreciate your input and find it invaluable. The knowledge here is a great resource, for sure.




Not to contradict Kuduae. Especially as I am editing my comment! I see Kuduae did mention "Freiherr or Baron", the second part of "or" I missed in my first reading of the comment. No doubt Kuduae has a far more direct knowledge than I!

Freiherr is the equivalent of Baron in the UK. Literally translated as "Fee Mister". I believe Baron might also be used? But possibly just a translation into English at times? A Freiherr owned lands "free" from interference. Unlike all our lands where the "Crown" can interfere, impose their will, demand easements etc, a Freiherr owned his lands absolutely.

Wouldn't we all love to have land rights like this?

But of course in our modern marxist inspired world, such rights (probably) do not exist anywhere. Gov't can not be denied.

Since the Weinmar Republic, in the 1920s, such titles do not exist in Germany either. Noble families were permitted to keep the title in their surnames. So eg a Freiherr von Schlottheim, or Baron of Schlottheeim, could take the surname Schlottheim, von Schlottheim or Freiherr von Schlottheim. so I knew a Burkhard Freiherr von Schlottheim when I lived in the UK. My wife visited them in Western Germany. All the family had that long three word "Friherr von Schlottheim", name as their last name. Maybe the females used Freiherrin I don't know?

Freiherr's being a lower level of noble rank, while not common, are relatively more common than the other noble ranks. With it no longer being a true title, inherited by the heir, it is probably even more numerous now than pre 1920's.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (23/11/19 01:35 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: kuduae]
      #334757 - 23/11/19 01:33 PM

Quote:

The shape of a crown indicated a rank in European nobility. This crown indicates the rank of a quite common Freiherr or Baron, the second lowest rank of nobility, called Gentry in England.

It would have been an insult to engrave such a humble, inappropiate crown on a gun ordered by any member of a royal, dukal or even countly family.

"Hofbüchsenmacher" was a title given to many upgrade gunshops. It means nothing more than the British phrase "By Appointment to His Majesty the King", good for advertisement only. Nagel & Menz had gunshops in Baden – Baden and Strasbourg. While Baden was THE spa of the international aristocracy, Strasbourg in Alsace – Lorraine was part of the "Reichsland Elsass – Lothringen" from 1871 to 1918, a territry subject directly to Kaiser Wilhem I.




Hi Kuduae, not to go off topic, but you refer to Friherr being the second lowest rank of nobility. What was the lowest? I thought Freiherr was the lowest? Thanks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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lancaster
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: NitroX]
      #334761 - 23/11/19 04:02 PM

the lowest rank in old times was the freiherr or sword nobility that came allways from a knight but after 1400 another class of nobility was born - the patent nobility. most times you had here a high ranking official that got a nobility patent for special merits in the country.
its clear that the descendant of a real knight dont see himself on the same rank like the descendant of a high ranking clerk.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangkrone

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Carpetsahib
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: lancaster]
      #334777 - 24/11/19 06:11 AM

Is it possible that the owner of this monogram was not even German?

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luv2safari
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: NitroX]
      #334781 - 24/11/19 06:22 AM

Not off topic at all...

I'm reading the informed posts with more than passing interest, trust me.

I've been gone here too long and forgot all the sea of knowledge one can navigate.

Any comments or suggestions are appreciated.

Also, it appears that 43 Spanish brass is the parent of reformed cases for a 10.5X47R. The rim and base diameters should be close enough to craft ammo. I can get close enough with 45-70 brass, too. It's base is .13" smaller, but wraping a strip of paper around the base and firing will size the rest of the case concentrically. I'll then fire form again with the paper strip removed, since the rest of the case fits the chamber tight now.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: luv2safari]
      #334782 - 24/11/19 08:13 AM

Are you sure it is 0.13" and not 0.013", there is quite a difference.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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luv2safari
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #334783 - 24/11/19 09:04 AM

Quote:

Are you sure it is 0.13" and not 0.013", there is quite a difference.

Matt.





LOL...what difference does an "0" make??

My flingerz dn't hit th keez ok.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

Edited by luv2safari (24/11/19 09:05 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: luv2safari]
      #334790 - 24/11/19 02:35 PM



Maybe it is a stylised SS?! But not that SS.

But might not be SS after all, looking at it again.

The Crown has four higher points and four lower. I don't know the correct terms.

I think Kuduae is correct and Freiherr is most likely. At least to my limited review.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (24/11/19 03:08 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: luv2safari]
      #334795 - 24/11/19 05:00 PM

Quote:

Not off topic at all...

I'm reading the informed posts with more than passing interest, trust me.

I've been gone here too long and forgot all the sea of knowledge one can navigate.

Any comments or suggestions are appreciated.

Also, it appears that 43 Spanish brass is the parent of reformed cases for a 10.5X47R. The rim and base diameters should be close enough to craft ammo. I can get close enough with 45-70 brass, too. It's base is .13" smaller, but wraping a strip of paper around the base and firing will size the rest of the case concentrically. I'll then fire form again with the paper strip removed, since the rest of the case fits the chamber tight now.




most likely 11,15x60R Mauser 71 is the parent case, there are over 200 diferent cases know made from 11,15x60R.
the 10,5x47R is one of the better known and wider used cartridges but exist in differnet versions what was very common then and is the reason for the 200 different cases.
http://www.municion.org/10/10_5x47R.htm

http://www.municion.org/10/10_5x47Rscheibengewehr.htm

there are probably more variants! make a chamber case and slug the barrel! you best option would be the 9,5x47R made by Horneber and Bertram because it have to be sized in a die only. this is a high quality gun and I would allways try to get a die set for this.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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luv2safari
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: lancaster]
      #334826 - 25/11/19 05:28 PM

This is very informative. I am able to translate it enough to glean a lot of information...Thank You.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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kuduae
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: luv2safari]
      #334838 - 25/11/19 10:34 PM

Quote:

Hi Kuduae, not to go off topic, but you refer to Friherr being the second lowest rank of nobility. What was the lowest?



The lowest rank was a simple "von" attached to the family name, without any real title (in Austro-Hungary the "courtesy title" Ritter" = knight was added). That "von" served about the same purpose like the British "Sir" does to this day, though the "von" was usually heriditary. The "von" was attached to the family name by royal letters patent for merits in military, science, arts, industry or economy. Examples are "von Dreyse" or "von Mannlicher". A family of this rank could use a crown with 5 tines/pearls above the monogram, while a Freiherr/Baron was etitled to 7 pearls, a Graf/count to 9.
Quote:

Is it possible that the owner of this monogram was not even German?



Quite likely, as the baronial crown looks a bit unusual for a German one in detail. As I wrote, Baden-Baden was populated during the summers by aristocrats and other well to do people from all Europe before WW1. It was called the "Summer capital of Europe" then. Russian nobility even had their own church built there. Nagel & Menz catered to that international clientele.


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85lc
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: kuduae]
      #334842 - 26/11/19 03:25 AM

I have a 11.15x47R that I made brass using fire formed 9.5x47R.

I bought Lee dies for 11.15x60R (43 Mauser) and shortened the resizing dies. These work very well.

The 10.5x47R has a Mauser A head which is thicker than a 45/70 rim. I made brass by thickening the rim of 45/70 brass by tapping the rim and resizing. These work very well.

I use both black powder, Triple 7 and 4198.

--------------------
RB


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DarylS
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: 85lc]
      #334847 - 26/11/19 04:56 AM

Innovation indeed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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luv2safari
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Re: Royal Find Drilling [Re: Buchsemann]
      #335051 - 01/12/19 01:47 PM

Quote:

luv2safari,

Beautiful find, congratulations!

I'm looking forward to reading of your bringing it back to life. Most especially in the field but first, a range report.

Cheers!

Mark




Now it's here I'm discovering some things about it. It does have the hinged rt trigger, and it's done so well that the seam is almost invisible.

The bore is .40/10mm, and I think it's a 10X47R, not the 10.5 as I had thought. C&H has the dies, Huntington's has 9.5X47R brass, and I can and did buy 180 gr and 220 gr 40 S&W cast bullets in .401; I bought 100 of each.

I'll take the gun to a good friend and gunsmith of mine, Lee LeBas, early next week and we'll bubble up some Cerrosafe and dump it into the chamber. C&H was kind enough to send me 10X47R diagrams they use to make the dies, and we'll get out the calipers.

If it as I believe, I should be smoking all three barrels in a week to ten days. I have some RST Ultra-Lite 2 1/2" 3/4oz 1,100 fps ammo coming that shows an average pressure of 5,200 psi.

I also have two 16ga to 20 ga chamber inserts I can use for now with very light 20 gauge ammo. That is even more benign than the RST ammo.

I'll get some pictures once I get it shooting.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

Edited by luv2safari (01/12/19 01:48 PM)


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