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gt8977c
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Reged: 27/07/17
Posts: 4
Loc: Georgia, USA
Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help
      #303380 - 28/07/17 02:49 AM

Hello

I am a new member here. I joined because I need your help.

Years ago I purchased a Westley Richards Model 1881 at a small auction for very little money.
At the time I got it, I knew I was basically just buying the action and buttstock.

Some hack of a "gunsmith" has gotten a hold of the rifle and really managed to screw it up.

Someone cut the original barrel off about 3 inches ahead of the receiver and used that as a mono-block to install an un-tapered octagonal barrel chambered in 45/70. The shank of the 45/70 barrel extends all the way to the breach face. I don't think it is even threaded or soldered to the barrel stub. I can see 3 places where they drove a pin through the side of the original barrel and into the new barrel to secure it.

The stub of original barrel that remains has been crudely turned on a lathe so all the original marking have been eliminated.

This mess is then topped off with some ugly bolted on sights of unknown make.

The fore end has been replaced and is a poorly shaped chunk of wood that does not even come close to matching the buttstock. And it is attached with a screw going into the underside of the barrel!!

All of this is a long way of saying I have half of a gun.

My plan is to replace the barrel, fore end, and sights with something that is close to what this gun should look like.

I have no idea what the original chambering was, and Westley Richards does not have any records on the gun. My only clue is that on the right side of the receiver, below the side lever, it is marked "Express Rifle Patent". Which is a marking I have not seen on any other 1881 I have found on the internet. But this may be a clue as to the chambering. Anybody ever seen this before?

I know that .450 No2 Musket was a common chambering, and from the list of observed guns in Wal Winfers book I see several guns with serial numbers near mine chambered for .577/500 No 2 Express.
But I don't believe my gun could chamber either of those rounds. The rims are too big

The top tang/loading ramp on my gun is pretty close to the barrel bore axis. The .608" dia. rim of a 45/70 just barely has clearance. So I think the original caliber has a rim of not more than .625"

My current thought is to chamber the gun in .450/400 3" and load it to BPE levels. (Not NE levels)

Where I need the help of this forum is I am trying to determine the proper length and contour for the new barrel. I plan on doing a round barrel, not octagonal.

What I would really love would be for someone with an um-molested gun to share with me the profile of their guns barrel and some dimensions off of their fore-end. I also have never seen a good close up photo of what the front sight on an original 1881 looks like.

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
Scott


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Wayne59
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: gt8977c]
      #303382 - 28/07/17 05:19 AM

Hello Scott. I also own an original Westly Richards in 450 no 2case and I live in the state of Georgia. If you will send me a private meassage via the forum I will try and help you out. Contact info would be good because I hate typing. If we are close enough I might be able to let you look the rifle over.

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HuviusModerator
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: Wayne59]
      #303384 - 28/07/17 06:25 AM

My bet is that it was originally chambered in the 500/450 No.1 Express cartridge.
I know the loading trough looks small and the action narrow but the necked and tapered cartridges like the
No.2 Musket and No.1 Express don't really align concentric with the bore until they are almost fully chambered.
Could end up being a nice sporting rifle in the end for sure.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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50Calshtr
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: Huvius]
      #303407 - 29/07/17 12:50 AM

Welcome Scott,
I visited the WR shops in Birmingham a few years ago and they had that same model on display. Caliber was 450.No 1 and I would agree with Huvius and recommend that caliber on your rebuild. I would also discourage the 450/400 idea, someone might slip up and drop a NE round in there thinking if it fits it's OK. I'm in Savannah and also load the 450 No.2 if you need a bit of assistance. Looks like a good, do-able project.
Best.


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HuviusModerator
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #303411 - 29/07/17 04:21 AM

Here's pretty much what I'd be going for.
Good information in the description.

https://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-1010-we...ng-rifle-33685/

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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3DogMike
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: Huvius]
      #303415 - 29/07/17 08:44 AM

Hello Scott, welcome to the forums.
Not mentioned yet is the series of books "British Single Shot Rifles" by Wal Winfer.
Volume 4 deals with Westley Richards & Co. and has quite a section devoted to the Model 1881. Photos, drawings, and descriptions should help you decide what "look" you want on a restored rifle.
The last part of the book features many of the Westley Richards and other cartridges that were used in the rifles, .303 on up to .500BPE.
Worth the price of the book for anyone restoring one.

The .500/.450 #1 Express is a fine cartridge, I have a Cogswell & Harrison in that caliber, and it is quite an accurate rifle. The caliber is a totally handload proposition though; the base and rim are not common to more available cartridge brass but .450 #2 Nitro brass or even .50 Sharps 3 1/4 can be formed to work. The problem is rim thickness if chambered to original spec. The WR .500/.450 #1 Express, unlike other .500 Brit based cartridges, has a very thick .060" rim, the common .500 express/Nitro express brass with .040" thick rim will not work unkess you headspace on the case shoulder or build up the rim thickness.

I hope the "gunsmith" that hosed that rifle up with that conversion you described did not screw the extractor up too badly.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

Edited by 3DogMike (29/07/17 08:46 AM)


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HuviusModerator
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 3DogMike]
      #303419 - 29/07/17 09:29 AM

Quote:


I hope the "gunsmith" that hosed that rifle up with that conversion you described did not screw the extractor up too badly.
- Mike




Good point!
I suppose this gun could have originally been a 303 but the "express" inscription on the side makes me think it was the 450.
The reason I sort of hope that it was a 303 is that the extractor is less likely to be buggered up in conversion to 45-70 and would be an easy conversion to one of the Westley 500/450s.
If the smith went from a 500/450 to 45-70 there is no telling how he did that judging by the barrel job!!
Fingers crossed!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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gt8977c
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 3DogMike]
      #303466 - 31/07/17 09:50 AM

Thank you all for the great input.
With a special thanks to Wayne59, who allowed me to visit him Sat. to examine his very nice Deeley and Edge patent target rifle. I picked up some some good points on WR styling from examining his rifle.

The extractor on my rifle was most likely made by the "gunsmith" who did the rest of the work. The fit and finish on it is not on the same level as the rest of the internal parts. But it does function well with the 45/70.

Not having to make a new extractor was part of my thinking when I started considering the .450 BPE or .450/400 BPE chamberings since the rim dia. is just slightly larger than the 45/70. The other considerations were that brass, dies and chamber reamers for these calibers are easily available.
The easiest thing would be to just stick with 45/70, but this rifle deserves to be in an english caliber.

50Calshtr makes a sound point about someone in the future, once the gun has passed from my hands, slipping a NE round into the run.

Seeing in Winfer's book, which I have, that several guns with serial numbers close to mine were in .577/500 No 2 Exp. led me to believe that was the source of the "Express Rifle Patent" marking. With the input I have gotten here I am believing the .500/450 No. 1 Exp. is probably correct.

I will have to search the forum and see what is involved in making and loading this round. Anybody have a chamber reamer laying around they want to sell or lend out?

I have directly contacted a couple of forum members who in the past have posted photo't of their 1881 sporting rifles. One member no longer has his rifle and another has a medical issue and will not be able to assist me for several weeks.

So if anyone has an 1881, or 1897 sporting rifle with a round barrel and would be willing to share with me the details of the barrels exterior contour I would be most grateful.

Thanks again for all of the great input. I will keep you posted on progress.


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MikeRowe
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: gt8977c]
      #303467 - 31/07/17 10:33 AM

I think you will like the No.1 Express round. The only problem is the brass is only available from Bertram's, if you want the headstamp. I believe it can be made from .475 No.2 NE, but it is quite a bit of work. The rims on 500's are too thin to use them as base cases.
I have a nice shooting load using 1 1/2F Olde Eynsford black powder, duplicating the original 110 grain black load with either 305 grain solids or 325 grain hollowed bullets - both paper wrapped.


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50Calshtr
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: MikeRowe]
      #303604 - 04/08/17 05:51 AM

I make my 450#2 brass fro Starline 50-90 Sharps brass. Out of town now so I don't have my references available but think you could probably do the same for the 45#1 but may have to ream the necks.
Best


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3DogMike
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #303608 - 04/08/17 08:28 AM

50Cal,
The Sharps base, rim, and rim thickness are suitable but the .50-90 2 1/2 is too short.....the 500/450 No.1 express is a 2 3/4" case length.
As I mentioned a couple of posts above, the Sharps .50 3 1/4" will work, just lop off 1/2" and full length size.
Sharps rim is nominally .065" thick while the 500/450 No.1 is ~.060" thick. No issue in my Cogswell & Harrison.

With a modern chamber neck reaming might be necessary, the chambers on antique originals tend to be "generous" in their proportions.......I'm guessing it was to accomodate the early rolled brass cases which were pretty thick neck diameter wise.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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Wayne59
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #303609 - 04/08/17 08:29 AM

If you would when you return would you post on how you make your brass. Bertram Brass is overly expensive.

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dracb
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: Wayne59]
      #303627 - 04/08/17 05:57 PM

Quote:

If you would when you return would you post on how you make your brass. Bertram Brass is overly expensive.



The way I make 500/450 No. 2 Musket brass from Starline Sharps 50/90 brass:
1. Anneal Sharps 50/90 brass from shoulder area to mouth of case
2. Full length size one piece of brass in 500/450 no. 2 Musket sizing die (special sizing die not
required)
3. Inspect sized case to determine if case mouth is crumpled due to interference by short die.
3.a. If mouth of case was not crumpled during resizing proceed to step 4
3.b. If mouth of case was crumpled during resizing then trim remaining cases so that they are
not crumpled during full length sizing but still slightly longer than desired case length
for 500/450 No. 2 Musket. Then proceed to step 4.
4. Resize cases
5. Trim cases to desired length of finished cartridge case

Please note that the base of the Sharps 50/90 case is a bit undersize for this conversion. I have used a couple hundred cases made this way and loaded with black powder equivalent to factory loads or modest amounts of some smokeless powders and I have never suffered any negative issues. I have read of several other shooters making the 500/450 No. 2 Musket from Sharps 50/90 brass with no reported failures due to the undersised base. If you choose to follow my method you are however on your own.

--------------------
"The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living."

Edited by dracb (04/08/17 06:14 PM)


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gt8977c
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: MikeRowe]
      #303673 - 05/08/17 03:37 AM

Happy to report that through the kindness of a gentleman in England that I contacted via the British Militaria forum, I now have a good set of barrel contour dimensions for a 45 cal Model 1881. The pattern rifle is a .450 No. 2 Musket.

The consensus here is that my rifle was probably originally a .500/450 No. 1 Express.
I am seriously considering going with this round, in the interest in keeping things correct.
Brass is available from Bertram, Dies from CH4D, and a reamer can be had from PTG.

But, the only dimensional drawing I have seem for this round is in my copy of Winfer's Westley Richards book. This shows the neck diameter of the No.1 Exp as .490". That seems awfully large. Most brass for 45 cal.(.458 bullets) seems to be .478 to .484.

Did the No.1 Exp brass just have an unusually thick neck? Or is it meant for a larger bore/bullet/obsolete rifling.

Before I commit to going to No.1 Exp. I will have to contact CH4D and PTG and make sure the standard reamer and dies are compatible with each other and that they will work with a standard .458 groove barrel.

The extra cost in brass, dies and reamer to use the No. 1 Exp verses what I could get the same for in .450 BPE is already several hundred dollars. But if I would have to go to a custom barrel bore and get into casting and sizing bullets to make things work, I will likely go with a more easily obtainable caliber.

Thanks to all for the great input.


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3DogMike
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: gt8977c]
      #303674 - 05/08/17 04:38 AM

Quote:

........... I could get the same for in .450 BPE is already several hundred dollars. But if I would have to go to a custom barrel bore and get into casting and sizing bullets to make things work, I will likely go with a more easily obtainable caliber.........



???? - Not sure what you are saying; any of the .450BPE work just fine with a "standard" .458" groove barrel and the straight case .450 are certainly less costly to obtain reloading components.
The "reason de etre" for the necked Westly-Richards Express cartridges was so that an express load cartridge could make it around the corner and chamber in a Martini type action, the various long straight Express rounds could not do this.
Normal dropping/falling block or break open actions of course did not have this limitation

To be sure, the .450's in the 1800's were all over the map as to bore/groove size but the (mostly) paper patch bullets would bump to whatever bore size upon firing.
The easiest and still "period correct" .450 Express would be the plain old .450 3 1/4" BPE, and you would not have to greatly alter the extractor.

BTW: My Cogswell & Harrison (Martini type action) .500/.450 No.1 of approximately 1873-75 vintage has a chamber neck diameter of .498" which was needed to accomodate the early rolled brass cases. Bullets would still have been anywhere from .450" to .458" diameter depending upon patched or greased and my barrel groove is .459". Shoots exceptionally well using the RCBS 300 grain .458 gas check cast 1-20.
I only neck size about 3/8" of the neck to hold the bullet and anneal every 3rd firing. Brass still doesnt last very long before neck splits.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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HuviusModerator
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 3DogMike]
      #303675 - 05/08/17 05:06 AM

Here is a copy of the No.1 Express from the 1884 Kynoch catalog.






Here is one of my GG loads next to an original cartridge.
My load happens to be with Bertram brass but I also have used original Kynoch cases as well as brass made from 500NE and 470 brass. All work fine if headspace is off the shoulder. Once they are fired, the neck is long enough to maintain concentricity with the chamber - that is if you don't resize your fired brass.

The original has a neck of .483"
A patched bullet of .454"
The base is .574"



The Kynoch measurements may actually be for chambers - not sure.

One thing you may want to consider is finding a good condition Martini Henry barrel to turn for your rifle if they are big enough to get the right dimensions. That way you would have he correct Henry rifling.
I will note that Westley Richards used Henry, Whitworth and Metford rifling In their rifles in the late 19th Century.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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gt8977c
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 3DogMike]
      #303678 - 05/08/17 05:18 AM

Re-reading the last sentence of my earlier post, I see it is a little difficult to follow.

My point was: going with the .500/450 No.1 Express round will likely cost about $350 more in brass, dies and reamer vs going with the more available .450BPE.
That is a cost I could afford, to make the gun more historically correct.

But, if the .500/450 No.1 Exp. chambering would also entail a non-standard barrel bore and custom sized bullets then it is probably not worth the cost and effort to me.

The hesitation on using the .500/450 No.1 came from seeing a cartridge dimension drawing showing a neck diameter of .490". Which appears rather large for a .458 bullet and got me concerned that the No.1 might be designed for a bore other than .458".

I want to confirm that the No.1 will work with todays standard .458 barrel and bullets.

As I said, it probably has more to do with the sizing of the available dies and reamers. Have to check with the suppliers and make sure all is OK before proceeding with the No.1 Express.


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3DogMike
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: gt8977c]
      #303679 - 05/08/17 05:35 AM

My Cogswell & Harrison carries a "52" bore Birmingham proof mark which is .447" bore. (Means the barrel at proof would take a "52" gauge rather than the true .450" 51 gauge) The 7 groove standard Baker style rifling measures ~.459" to the bottom of the grooves at the breech end.
As I mentioned, the chamber/cartridge specs you see in the drawings (and as Ben mentions) are very likely based on "worst case" of having to accomodate an early rolled brass cartridge. Those necks were considerably thicker than drawn brass cases. Plus, it is very likely that, as with the generously cut military chambers, the chambers are cut to allow dirty/corroded/bent cases to easily chamber and extract. Except for target shooting, British ammo just was not reloaded when out hunting so excessive expansion and case life were not an issue.

Rolled brass case:
http://40.media.tumblr.com/336b7856d0cd679a0fabdc184523e912/tumblr_inline_nlqpazVhM41qapn73_500.jpg

So....no you do not need a weird non-standard size barrel for any of the .450's, just accept a sloppy chamber if using the antique drawings as a guide.


- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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DarylS
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 3DogMike]
      #303686 - 05/08/17 08:40 AM

My 3 1/4" .500 Bell brass is .565" on the expansion ring (Shiloh Sharps chamber). .562/3" just ahead of the rim.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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MikeRowe
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 3DogMike]
      #303689 - 05/08/17 08:55 AM

I wouldn't worry too much about it - the original bores and chambers are all over the place.
Use black powder and a paper wrapped bullet, and you'll be fine.

My 450 No.1 shells measure .484" at the neck, loaded with .450 bullets patched to around .462, with
Bertram cases.
The fired cases measure .487 at the mouth, with the neck increasing in size to .500 just above the
shoulder.
Such a chamber shape keeps the round centralised, but with the taper it's easy to load, even with
fouling present.

My rifle is .450 bore, with groove diameter approaching .469 - yes, the grooves are over .009 deep.


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HuviusModerator
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: Wayne59]
      #304106 - 16/08/17 11:51 AM

Quote:

Hello Scott. I also own an original Westly Richards in 450 no 2case...




From Scott's post, sounds like you have a match rifle.
Please tell us about it!
I have one too and it will be fun to compare and see what loads have been working for you.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Wayne59
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: Huvius]
      #304118 - 16/08/17 08:49 PM

I have only fired this gun once with Bp loads. 85grs of 2f with a 525gr postel bullet. The recoil broke my friends nose. He tried to fire it from the bench. I will have to get around to trying a 400gr bullet with a Nitro for Black load.

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85lc
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: Wayne59]
      #310750 - 21/01/18 07:59 AM

I am in the process of getting a Westley 1881 MBL (also with tang and heel sights) with a Medford barrel in 500/450 #2.

I plan to shoot this rifle at the South River Gun Club (SRGC) which just reopened its rifle range. They have 50/100/200 yd ranges.

For loads, I will initially try either the 350 or 400 gr PP bullets from Buffalo at 50 and then 100 yds. I will use NfB loadings initially and if all is well, will try black.

I notice there are several forum members from Georgia. If you want to meet at teh SRGC to shoot, email me at fj60@earthlink.net to coordinate.

Scott, it is good to see you are getting your Westley sorted out. Wayne, sorry about your friend: I will try not to duplicate his shooting.

--------------------
RB


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HuviusModerator
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 85lc]
      #310763 - 21/01/18 11:26 AM

85LC,
Welcome to NitroExpress!

Did you get the 1881 match rifle from Lincoln City Sporting Goods that they had on Gunbroker?
Thought that looked like a fairly priced rifle and called too late.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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TH44
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: Huvius]
      #310801 - 22/01/18 10:10 AM

85 grains of 2F behind a 525 gr slug is a stiff load by any standard unless in a heavier rifle

I have used 30 grains of 4198 behind a 405 grain bullet in my No. 2 Musket with some success, might be a way to start

You MUST use magnum primers, I also use a filler

TH44

Edited by TH44 (22/01/18 10:11 AM)


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Wayne59
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: TH44]
      #310808 - 22/01/18 11:36 AM

85lc I did warn him before he fired the gun, now he wont fire my 416 Rigby (or any of my large (rifles). My rifle probably ways 9 or 10lbs but with such a straight stock and a steel but plate It's no gun for light weights.

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85lc
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: Huvius]
      #310969 - 25/01/18 06:01 AM

Yes, I did buy it from Lincoln City. It was a consigned gun. I spent quite a bit of time talking with the actual gun owner. He is a fairly knowledgeable gunsmith from that area.

I hope to get the gun sometime next week. The seller is sending some bullets to try along with some 100% cotton paper for patching.

One question that I have is the bullet diameter. I ask that because I typically used bullets that were 0.001" over groove diameter. However, with a Medford barrel, is that correct? I ask because the Medford rifling is polygonal (very shallow and smooth with no definition of shoulders or grooves). In a way, it seemed to be similar to Lancaster's oval bore in which the bullets should not be groove diameter. I would appreciate hearing your experience.

Lets see if I can get this gun to shoot nice groups.

--------------------
RB


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85lc
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: Wayne59]
      #310970 - 25/01/18 06:09 AM

Gosh, I hope he is still politely speaking to you.

I would not expect (or perhaps hope) that this gun to kick more that my 500 bpe with 440 gr bullet and 4.5 drams of 2f. The 500 is more a strong push than kick. Of course, I hold it solidly against my shoulder.

--------------------
RB


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HuviusModerator
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 85lc]
      #310985 - 25/01/18 09:32 AM

The bore of my 1881 is .458” so the grooves must be something like .466” or so.
I haven’t got very good accuracy with my rifle yet primarily, I think, because my bullets have been undersized for this bore.
Now, however, I can swage bullets of any weight that patch right up to .458” so with a little work I am sure it will shoot great.
My other 450No.2 Musket chambered rifles have tighter bores so shoot .458” bullets just fine with smokeless but use a .450” paper patched bullet when using black. They both shoot quite good with either black or smokeless.

You will probably find that your chamber doesn’t have much of a lead into the rifling from the case mouth with the rifling running right up to the case mouth. With a chamber like this, bore sized bullets are about as big as you can chamber so they often don’t lend themselves to using smokeless very well.

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DarylS
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: Huvius]
      #310990 - 25/01/18 10:18 AM

If you are shooting black powder, then the bullet patched diameter can be undersize (right down to bore size) yet still slug up to fill the grooves perfectly. Once normally needs to use a lube wad on the powder (wax paper or beeswax disk separating powder from lube disk - 1/4" thick worked perfectly with 122gr. 2f in my RB with 580gr. bullet (.45 3 1/4"))

To do this, they must be very soft, no harder than 30:1 perhaps. 40:1 to pure lead, also usable or preferred.

If wanting to shoot harder bullets, they must be groove diameter or slightly exceed groove diameter.

Ahh - Huvius, you beat me to it. Good stuff.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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85lc
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: DarylS]
      #311080 - 26/01/18 10:33 AM

Guys,

Great feedback. That is well appreciated.

Huvius, apparently the bore of my rifle is similar to your rifle. Also, I will start out with 2f black powder.

Huvius, are you using a hard, grooved bullet of soft pp bullet?

Daryl, using lube wads seem to work very well with the limited bpe shooting I have done. With the exception of some oval bore Lancasters, all have accurately shot with a veg wad over the powder, a soft wax wad, and a second veg wad between the wax & bullet.

Brian, the Lincoln City gunsmith that sold me the rifle, said that a 458" bullet would slide down the barrel to the choke. He also said the barrel has a gain twist and is choked about 4" from the muzzle.

I will give feedback after I have shot this gun.

--------------------
RB


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HuviusModerator
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 85lc]
      #311092 - 26/01/18 02:36 PM

So far, I have tried paper patched bullets of roughly .450” .
I mistakenly thought that the loads that shot so well in my other 450No.2 Musket rifles would do in this rifle as well.
Of course, that is not so in my rifle and you seem to have the same bore as mine being .458”

Moving forward (or back to 1882 in this case) I will use almost pure lead bullets.
This is for two reasons.
One, is that my swaging dies like to form pure lead more than any alloy - in fact, I cracked my core die trying to swage 30/1 alloy.
The second reason is that, regarding paper patched bullets, pure lead will surely bump up to fill the grooves better than anything else.
That will be my plan for my rifle and I will report on how that is all working.

85LC, I hope you will report on how you get along with your 1881 and if you need some swaged bullets of whatever weight, I will be happy to provide some. I bet our rifles will like very much the same formula.

BTW, I just bought a supply of really good paper so I will be in paper for quite a while. Eaton 9lb 25% cotton kokle finish typewriter paper.
This is one I just patched which had a tiny bit of overlap - hardly noticeable.



There is something about this paper that works really well. It just seems to pick up really well when wet and once dried, is very smooth and secure to the bullet and very sturdy.
I very much recommend this paper and it can still be found on EBay occasionally as well as estate and yard sales.
I bought a box of Kimberly Clark paper a while back which I have been using which works just as well as the Eaton so I recommend both of these papers.



--------------------
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85lc
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: TH44]
      #311986 - 09/02/18 04:14 AM

TH44,

Why do I need to use magnum primers?

I use Win LR primers in my NfB loads for my 500 BPE and 450/400 BPE. I use 4198 as my powder.
I normally use a filler to keep the powder near the primer but have not had any issues without the filler.

--------------------
RB


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3DogMike
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 85lc]
      #312005 - 09/02/18 05:03 AM

Quote:

TH44,
Why do I need to use magnum primers?
.




One word: Insurance
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
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DarylS
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 3DogMike]
      #312015 - 09/02/18 05:22 AM

Yes - I agree - insurance. I would also use a plug of foam to fill extra space.

Ignition in straight sided cases, is the most difficult of all, due i suspect, the easy with which smokeless powder can be pushed away from the primer flash, but the pressure front of the flash.

John Buhmiller (Old John) of Kalispel Montana went to great lengths and experimentation to achieve good ignition from straight cases.

In my own .458 American, I tested one of his ideas, of having a primer, cup-down, on top of the powder, the bullet's base holding it in place (full load, not reduced). I found that with a magnum or standard primer over the powder, cup-down, I could achieve the same ballistics using 6gr. less powder, so a drop tube was not needed, whereas to get that extra 6gr. powder & bullet into the case, I needed the 28" tube.

You are on your own, as I was however I did have very good results. This clearly shows poor ignition and powder burning with standard magnum primers. I had been using CCI250's and Federal 215's at that time - this was in the 1980's.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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HuviusModerator
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: DarylS]
      #312033 - 09/02/18 07:42 AM

I know this topic has been hashed over in a few threads here, but I had a thought regarding the use of foam backer rod.
In the beginning of my using it, I cut the foam rod to the length equal to the distance from the powder charge to the bottom of the bullet.
Then, I started cutting the rod even with the case mouth and letting the bullet compress it a little - saw no difference other than an occasional piece of foam could be found on the ground.
Now, I am considering going the other direction and trying a much shorter piece of foam against the powder, maybe .5” or so.
My rationale is that a snug fitting foam piece will do the job just as well as a long piece. Very similar to the guys using a toilet paper square rolled into a ball.
Any thoughts on this?

--------------------
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TH44
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: Huvius]
      #312055 - 09/02/18 10:20 AM

85lc

The reason I insist on Magnum primers is from my own experience

Several years ago I tried out a 4198 BPE equivalent load in my Williams and Powell .577 Snider DR

With no prior knowledge I used standard primers

The bullets only just got out of the barrel and went 20 yards downrange leaving much unburnt powder everywhere around the action (I reported the problems on this forum at the time)

The problem is that under these circumstances there is a possibility of complete ignition (i.e an explosion with extreme pressure issues)

Magnum primers solved the problem

Others have reported similar issues

I cannot remember whether I used a filler but I do now

I can only assume the charge was not ignited correctly

The problem seems to have gone away for me as I now longer use BPE instead of BP, having a BP licence here in the UK

Good luck in your shooting whichever way you choose

TH 44

Edited by TH44 (09/02/18 10:39 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: Huvius]
      #312057 - 09/02/18 10:32 AM

The idea of filling the space, was to fill the air of compressed air between the coming flame front and the bottom of the bullet. It was thought that the resulting compressed air was responsible for the odd ringed chambers that occurred with must using a small square of Dacron.
The foam filling this area removed or eliminated that possibility.
When I used kapok (from an old life jacket) as a filler, I filled the space to a compressed load. I was doing this back in the 70's, when I didn't want to go out and buy Dacron for a filler like everyone else seemed to be using. Most of the writers wrote of using 1/2gr. or 1 gr. 'square'. They(might have been Lyman) even showed pictures of a sectioned .45/70 case with a miniscule fast burning powder charge, like 10gr. unique or something, then a tiny ball of Dacron holding it in the bottom of the case.

I do think the excess space should be filled & it seems maybe foam is the best filler so far. If a section or it only as long as the air space works, that's great. If the velocity variations high to low are narrower with compressed foam, then THAT is the way to go.

The best results are what drives us.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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85lc
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: DarylS]
      #314942 - 04/04/18 08:44 AM

Guys,

I have an issue with my WR 1881 locking up, making it a true single shot. A friend of mine also has a WR1881 that also locks up.

The caliber of my gun is 500/450 #1. The brass is 50/90 that was shortened and formed. There is approximately 0.004" of head space which I think may be needed to keep the block from binding when being raised /lowered.

I was hoping someone had a similar experience with a WR1881 and could offer advise.

It appears to be two problems. I will discussed these below.

With the gun locked up, I remove the lower tang. The firing pin is forward. A tap or two with a brass rod will release the firing pin.

If the case is just a primed but unloaded case, the primer backs out 0.001". There is a slight rub mark on the bottom of the primer, as if the firing pin is dragging.

The firing pin seems to be good, it exerts good pressure on the pin (I notice the pressure when pushing the pin in with my finger)

When I first tried shooting this gun, I disassembled it and noticed the firing pin was too long and the tip was flat, in fact, somewhat sharp on the upper edge. The pin is the correct diameter for the block.

I think the pin must have been a replacement pin.

I rounded the tip and shorten the pin so there was 0.057" protrusion when fired. The pin was soft, somewhat rough and slightly bent. I cleaned up the outside and oil hardened the tip to keep it from bending (the pin is at 35 degree to bore).

Well, the gun continues to lock up so I would like to get your advise.

--------------------
RB


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casper50
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 85lc]
      #314946 - 04/04/18 01:04 PM

I'd make a new firing pin out of a good hardened metal. If it was/is bent it could be binding.

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HuviusModerator
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: casper50]
      #314948 - 04/04/18 01:55 PM

Looking at the drawings of the 1881 action, it sort of makes sense that the tip of the firing pin be beveled to some degree so the lowering of the block will help push the pin back into the block to clear the primer and case.

What primer are you using?
The magnum primers seem to be a bit thicker so harder to dent with the firing pin so, as long as you get reliable ignition with these, they may help in the sticking firing pin department.

--------------------
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tinker
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: Huvius]
      #314960 - 05/04/18 02:51 AM

Federal 215 primers are great for the big BPE loads.
Also the cups aren't terribly hard.

That firing pin wouldn't cost much to get properly hardened and tempered, or even completely replaced.



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylS
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: tinker]
      #314964 - 05/04/18 04:02 AM

Care hardening using case-knit might be a very good idea.

Replacing it with a piece of good spring stock or drill rod, properly hardened and tempered would also work - perhaps the best 'fix'. Sounds to me the firing pin sitting in the spent primer is what is locking up the action.

imho, .004" is about perfect for headspace.
I also think that primers backing out only .001" is very good on a single shot - and perhaps shows only .001" headspace on 'that' case.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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MikeRowe
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: DarylS]
      #314979 - 05/04/18 12:30 PM

I would be looking for wear on the camming surfaces that cock the hammer on that action.
If the pressure from the hammer strike is not immediately begun to be relieved
upon initial lever movement, you'll have the problem you describe. Hard firing pin
or not. I've seen it on single shots before. Wear at several points soon adds up to
a lot of delay.
I think the 1881's have a firing pin retraction spring - is it still there?


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DarylS
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: MikeRowe]
      #314982 - 05/04/18 01:36 PM

Mike - re-bounding? I wondered about that.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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MikeRowe
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: DarylS]
      #314991 - 05/04/18 09:00 PM

It's been a while, but I don't think so.

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85lc
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: MikeRowe]
      #315013 - 07/04/18 12:46 AM

Guys,

Thank you for your input. Let me give some more info about the gun, the primers, and some of my observations/thoughts.

Cam: I initially thought that the cam was the problem, so I decided to investigate this.

Of course, I can not see whether the cam completely lifts the hammer off the firing pin before the block moves.

I taped the lever side of the action with masking tape and marked where the lever was when the block first started to move. Removing the block and dropping the lever to the marked location where the block started to move, it appears that the hammer would be lifted off the pin.

Also when I removed the lower tang (includes the hammer), the pin remained embedded in the primer.

From this, I believe the cam is not the issue. What are your thoughts?

FP Spring: The firing pin return spring seems strong compared to other firing pin springs. If nothing else works, I may have to make a new spring.

Primer: I use Winchester LR primers which are rated as being somewhat harder than Federal but softer than Remington or CCI. I have successfully used Win primers for years and in several BP CF rifles, though none with a very steep firing pin angle.

Firing Pin: The pin has been trued and hardened.

The pin is at a sharp angle (35 degrees) to the bore. My question is this: When the rifle is fired, could the thrust on the cartridge force the case back and capture the firing pin?

However, if this were the case, why does this not also happen in the 1000s of other 1881.

What are your thoughts?

--------------------
RB


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HuviusModerator
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 85lc]
      #315054 - 07/04/18 11:03 PM

Seems like there are only two things that can be the problem here.
1. the pin is not rebounding as it should (of course...)
2. the hammer is not sufficiently lifted from the rear of the firing pin due to wear of the cocking block

When you begin the downward movement of the side lever, you should have a distinct feeling of resistance before the block begins to drop.
This is the cocking block pushing the hammer away from the rear of the firing pin which allows it to retract from the primer well before the block begins its descent.
You know you are pivoting the hammer because there is a springy feel to the lever - push it a little and it comes right back up from the pressure of the main spring.

My thought is that if you have this resistance, then the cocking block is probably doing its job and the problem lies in the firing pin.
If your side lever begins its drop with little or no initial resistance, then your hammer is not being lifted early enough.

There are excellent drawings of the whole action in Winfer's volume #4 on the W.R. rifles.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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85lc
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: Huvius]
      #315851 - 30/04/18 10:35 AM

Huvius, The issue was resolved by shortening the firing pin. Apparently, the pin was a replacement that had never had a final fit. It was quite a bit of filling, reinstalling, firing, locked gun, disassemble, file and so on. I actually thought I had over shorten the pin but it works fine. I shot the gun 37 times on Thursday without a lockup. That was all the loaded ammo i had loaded.

--------------------
RB


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DarylS
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 85lc]
      #315852 - 30/04/18 11:00 AM

Well done, glad you got the situation resolved.

I know the pin will drag a line in the primer of our Sharps, if we do not go to 1/2 cock first.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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93x64mm
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: DarylS]
      #315879 - 01/05/18 07:39 AM

gt8977c & 85lc
what calibre is it in, still 45/70 just to get it to function?
Will you get this old girl back to 450 No1 Express eventually or has that turned into the too hard basket?


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HuviusModerator
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: 93x64mm]
      #315887 - 01/05/18 01:49 PM

85lc, good to hear that it was a straightforward fix and your 1881 is back in action!
I hope that my description of the lever actuation and how it feels was helpful.

Please start another thread about your rifle and how you are getting on with it.

Now, back to the OP and the rebarrel job.
I know, these projects can run into years (mine have...) so if you are making any decisions or have anything new to post about your project, please share it all with us!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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bpesteve
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Re: Westley Richards Model 1881 Needs Help [Re: gt8977c]
      #318939 - 09/08/18 03:20 PM

Back to the original question:
Hello Scott,
Good for you for wanting to go original in your rebuild of this 'Bubba-d' 1881! The nice thing about doing this in the current day is that you get to choose the dimensions of the chamber and barrel that you want, you don't need to rely on odd old dimensions or averages of existing examples unless you really want to.

While it would be easier and cheaper to rebuild that rifle into a .450 3-1/4" BPE, I have yet to find a record of an original 1881 so built. W-R did build 1881s in both .303 and .375 2-1/2" Flanged Nitro, and the standard 270 grain loading for the .375 2-1/2" was a pretty low pressure affair. If you want a simpler, smokeless solution you might give that one a look. Basically it duplicated the ballistics of either the 450 3-1/4" BPE or the 500/450 No.1 BPE 2-3/4", a 270 grain bullet at around 1900 fps. The .375 2-1/2" rifles I have shot, one H&H and one Lancaster, have been quite accurate.

I've had two original (but not W-R) rifles in 450 No.1 Express, a Rigby double several years ago with Metford rifling and a Field action single shot with Henry rifling that I'm really enjoying now. Both have worked very well with either nitro-for-black loads or full black powder loads. Yes, Bertram brass is expensive; but the current stuff is much much better than those made 20 years ago and how many will you need, after all? I'm using either 300 grain soft cast or 350 grain paper-patch bullets in mine; either one will 'bump up' with black powder to fit whatever groove diameter they're fired in.

450 No.1 Express cartridges with Bertram brass fired in the Field action rifle end up with an outside neck diameter of .490" or a bit over. The neck walls are about .012". The bore and groove diameters? Who knows, it's got that wonderful seven-sided, triangular-land Henry rifling!

The set of Dies I use is from RCBS, in their group "L" dies with a part number of 56618. I don't know if these are still available on special order or not, but a call to RCBS would sort that out. CH-4D also makes dies as you know.

The hardest item to come by for reloading this cartridge is the shell holder. Nothing else I've found quite fits. Again, a call to RCBS or CH-4D should sort that out. I believe the one I have is from CH-4D and I had to do a very minor amount of filing on it to perfectly fit the Bertram cases. Took me about five minutes.

One other thing - in a light rifle, like a single shot will be, the recoil of a full black powder load, even with the light "Express" weight bullets around 300 grains, is quite noticeable. Make sure your stock fits or your cheek bone won't be very happy.


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