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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 227
Loc: Middle of germany
Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München
      #266748 - 21/06/15 04:52 AM

Very interesting hammer falling block, caliber 8,2x50R ( the old austrian military caliber).
Barrel signed by Miller & Val. Greiss, " Kruppsch. Gussstahl".
Engraving is an Suhl area work. Maybe the rifle itself is also an work from Suhl or Zella Mehlis.
Mounted on an "Wiener Schnäpper" is an Svarovski Habicht 4x32.















--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de


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TH44
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Posts: 731
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Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: chapmen]
      #266753 - 21/06/15 08:43 AM

That is certainly an exceptional rifle

Being used to and familiar with the British Single Shot rifles this is similar but different
The restrained (for most Continental arms) engraving is elegant and just right IMHO

The peep sight and bolted lock shows best quality

Is it yours? How does it shoot? For sale?

Many thanks for posting

TH44


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HuviusModerator
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3518
Loc: Colorado
Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: chapmen]
      #266760 - 21/06/15 02:35 PM

Alex Heinrich perhaps?
A really great rifle and very similar to an Alex Henry action.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 227
Loc: Middle of germany
Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: Huvius]
      #266767 - 21/06/15 07:16 PM

Yes its mine and not for sale......
Trying to find enough to write an article about it.
I have some rounds of the Hirtenberger ammo, but havent
shoot it yet.
I have gone via google to an lot of pics from Henry and other similar
actions, they are very close.
Also this type of action where made in austria, but also quiete different.
Especially i have not seen an underlever like this?

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de


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Bidgee
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Posts: 711
Loc: Northern Rivers, NSW
Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: chapmen]
      #266768 - 21/06/15 07:24 PM

Very nice, you would have to be happy to own it.

I am not familiar with the 8.2 x 50R, what would it compare with?

Thanks for the post.


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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 227
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Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: Bidgee]
      #266769 - 21/06/15 07:44 PM

taken from wiki:

244 gr (16 g) M90 RN 1,950 ft/s (590 m/s) 2,059.74 ft·lbf (2,792.63 J)
244 gr (16 g) M93 RN 2,035 ft/s (620 m/s) 2,243.22 ft·lbf (3,041.40 J)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8%C3%9750mmR_Mannlicher

the hirtenberger ammo is loaded with an 196 grs. bullet., i dont know any ballistic data for
this in the moment.

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8664
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: chapmen]
      #268099 - 16/07/15 03:09 AM

the Hirtenberger ballistic must have been in the older Frankonia catalogs, think it was in itup to 92/93. the Hirtenberger load was very late and short lived and I think it was not made before 1985. before there was only the Kynoch softpoint load http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=5519794 available into the 1970s from old stock.

It seems Sellier&Bellot was making hunting ammo also in the 1960s




here is surplus ammo for sale
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=5521190

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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DarylS
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Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: lancaster]
      #268106 - 16/07/15 08:26 AM

Now THAT is special.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Bidgee
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Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: DarylS]
      #268123 - 17/07/15 03:13 AM

Very nice, thanks for posting.

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Tentman
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Reged: 13/06/10
Posts: 128
Loc: Southland, New Zealand
Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: Bidgee]
      #268127 - 17/07/15 05:28 AM

Hello - Nice rifle. How does the lever lock in the "closed" position, a photo of the mechanism would be very nice. Thanks

--------------------
Southland, New Zealand

Edited by Tentman (17/07/15 05:28 AM)


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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 227
Loc: Middle of germany
Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: Tentman]
      #268188 - 18/07/15 11:05 PM

Quote:

Hello - Nice rifle. How does the lever lock in the "closed" position, a photo of the mechanism would be very nice. Thanks




The lever just snaps under the steel grip cap, depending on an little bit tension.





--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de


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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 227
Loc: Middle of germany
Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: chapmen]
      #268189 - 18/07/15 11:08 PM

interesting: ordance WW1 ammo with the full jacket bullet will not fit the chamber. The bullet is to long.

Hirtenberger 196grs. :


ordnance WW1


Left ordance, right Hirtenberger


Edited by chapmen (18/07/15 11:12 PM)


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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 227
Loc: Middle of germany
Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: chapmen]
      #268190 - 18/07/15 11:11 PM









--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de


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Igorrock
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Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: chapmen]
      #268192 - 19/07/15 01:51 AM

Quote:

interesting: ordance WW1 ammo with the full jacket bullet will not fit the chamber.


Could this indicate that twist of barrels suits better for lighter bullets....?

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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lancaster
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Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: Igorrock]
      #268196 - 19/07/15 02:42 AM

remarkable problem, could indicate the rifle was made for the DWM 10 gramm softpoint load

I think this is the round







the 15,6 gramm roundnose bullet is a good idea on big game up the 150 meter but as a moutain rifle on chamois maybe not the best. could be the rifle was ordered just to shoot this load.
maybe its possible to load the post war Kynoch cartridge because this roundnose is longer and more "spitzer".



Kynoch, DWM, bulgarian surplus

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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DarylS
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Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: lancaster]
      #268197 - 19/07/15 04:33 AM

The stamping ahead of the S# on the bottom flat would indicate the gun is meant for the 15.6gram bullet - or even perhaps a 156grain bullet, would it not?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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chapmen
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Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: DarylS]
      #268200 - 19/07/15 04:46 AM

156/14 is the old german caliber stamp used until 1911 to indicate the caliber.
Its just an fluke that it is the same with an bullet weight.
As you see in the list for the proofing was used an 17,1 gramm bullet.
The list gives an bullet weight from 13,1 gramm for the usual ammunition.










Edited by chapmen (19/07/15 04:51 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: chapmen]
      #268201 - 19/07/15 04:48 AM

Ahh- interesting, but not understood.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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chapmen
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Posts: 227
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Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: lancaster]
      #268204 - 19/07/15 04:52 AM

Quote:


maybe its possible to load the post war Kynoch cartridge because this roundnose is longer and more "spitzer".





i think so too but have no round to check this.

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

Edited by chapmen (19/07/15 04:53 AM)


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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 227
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Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: DarylS]
      #268205 - 19/07/15 05:00 AM

Before 1911 in germany exist an system from calibernumbers that indicates the caliber.
Its the same like shotgun calibers as 12, 16 or 20, the numbers are saying only indirect the real caliber.

The 156/14 says that the caliber on this rifle is not smaller than 7,87mm from groove to groove.

By proofing an higher bullet weight than the usual was used.

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de


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lancaster
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Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: chapmen]
      #268206 - 19/07/15 05:42 AM

Quote:

Quote:


maybe its possible to load the post war Kynoch cartridge because this roundnose is longer and more "spitzer".





i think so too but have no round to check this.




your next chance http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=5519794

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 227
Loc: Middle of germany
Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: lancaster]
      #268207 - 19/07/15 05:53 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


maybe its possible to load the post war Kynoch cartridge because this roundnose is longer and more "spitzer".





i think so too but have no round to check this.




your next chance http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=5519794




thanks for this.......

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de


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DarylS
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Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: chapmen]
      #268209 - 19/07/15 06:14 AM

Chapman - thank you for the explanation.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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kuduae
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Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: DarylS]
      #268211 - 19/07/15 07:39 AM

Quote:

156/14 is the old german caliber stamp used until 1911 to indicate the caliber.
Its just an fluke that it is the same with an bullet weight.
As you see in the list for the proofing was used an 17,1 gramm bullet.
The list gives an bullet weight from 13,1 gramm for the usual ammunition.










Right in part only. The gauge numbers did not indicate the groove diameter, but a diameter between the lands only. It was measured at the proofhouse using cylindrical plugs. The largest number that passed the barrel was stamped. There were no intermediate steps from gauge number to gauge number. Here a # 156.14 = 7.87 mm = .310" plug passed the barrel. but a # 141.96 = 8.13 mm = .320" one did not. So the actual bore/land diameter of a Barrel marked 156.14 may have been as large as 8.12 mm = .319".
The powder charges and bullet weights for preliminary proof, final proof and service load in the 1892 tables were for black powder proof using cylindrical lead bullets only, in no way related to the then evolving, new smokeless cartridges.
In 1893 a new proof rule for rifles using the M88 8x57I cartridge was installed: The Spandau arsenal produced a special smokeless proof powder: Used at the same charge weight as the then military flake powder behind the regulation 14.7 gramm = 227 gr bullet, it produced a 4000 atmospheres pressure, a 33% overload in this cartridge. Soon the proofhouses used this powder for other Nitro rifle cartridges too. Rifles proofed this way were not marked with the familiar eagle + BGU marks, but with a big crown + a small crown over N. This smokeless proof was sometimes used by the Suhl and Zella – Mehlis proofhouses until 1923. (Oberndorf / Mauser proofhouse did not use these marks on their commercial M98 action rifles. As those were offered only as rifles and only for smokeless cartridges, they deemed it superfluous to mark them other than crown/B = proof load fired and crown/U = viewed for defects.)
The 8x50R Mannlicher then used a long, heavy 15.8 gramm = 244 gr .323" bullet in a .313" land, .329" groove diameter barrel, depending on the long bullet setting up from the sudden blow of the fast burning, high pressure Austrian smokeless powder.


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93x64mm
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Re: Hammer Falling Block signed Miller&Greiss München [Re: kuduae]
      #268215 - 19/07/15 08:46 AM

Chapmen,
TH44 hit the nail on the head, a beautiful rifle with exquisite engraving & fittings that just speaks volumes for old world craftsmanship.
I suppose the new scope will be for your eyes - if anything like mine they're definitely not as good as they use to be!
Can you make your own cast projectiles over in Germany or can you only use factory ammunition?
If you can reload, what twist is the rifling? Daryl is a whiz when it comes to that & should be able to calculate what you require, but the actual groove diameter will be needed.
Will be nice to see this 'old lady' sing again, reckon a few deer will be in serious trouble when she does!
Cheers
93x64mm


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