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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns

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lancaster
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Dreyse Double
      #244637 - 30/03/14 08:09 AM

so I got the Nikolaus Dreyse ( nobilitation in 1864 than von Dreyse)Zündnadel fusilier rifle and a Franz von Dreyse( his son after 1867) needle fire double gun too.
you would say "stop" whats with the double gun here in the combination guns forum?
so lets take a look











caliber is 0,70"( prussian inch not imperial) Randschlußpatrone, maybe translatet as rim-end cartridge and meaning a needle fire paper cartridge with a massive breech end





this is an original cartridge







F(ranz).v. Dreyse Sömmerda















dont look like a shotgun foresight





have a rear sight too





whats this on the right barrel?

this double gun is or better was a combination gun with an interchangeable chamber. it was a combination gun because the rifled chamber is lost and the shotgun chamber is fix now because of corrosion. I am sure if it was possible to get the chamber piece out the last owner would have done this.



here you can see the chamber piece in the right barrel





the "rotation piece" makes an upside down paradox gun by giving a bullet a sharp spin in the beginning. the rifling diameter fits the shotgun barrel diameter and the roundball bullet is flying like a common rifle bullet than.










the big disatvantage of the dreyse gun is that have to loose five screws to get the barrel out of it.



very typical for dreyse guns is a hunting dog or a fox in silver on the gun




have laying around a 0,74" Dreyse double gun waiting for a new stock and restoration for many years now.
the 0,74" chamber takes 16 ga brass and shells without modification. they have a loose fit but with black powder loads I see no problem to shoot it. the Dreyse/RMS 1904(?) catalog have needle fire shotgun cartridge from 0,59" to 0,74" but I have only seen 0,70" and 0,74" guns till now. a hunter here have a 0,74" Dreyse gun that take 14 ga brass. have made ammo for him years ago when 14 ga greener police gun brass was available by OWS. I believe this gun was rechambered when the original ammo became obsolet but 14 ga shot shell are obsolete now also.



here with the double gun you see the common shotgun foresight





uncocking the needles, its easy to uncock and cock both with the thump in a moment




by pressing the trigger you can take the complete needle/spring unit out



the Dreyse guns together













side by side with the Dreyse rifle, diameter is very similar with 16,5 groove diameter for the rifle and 16,6mm for the shotgun barrels




20 ga magtech brass and plastic/paper shells dont realy fit into the chamber but the rim is not bad




rim dia. of the chamber is 19,45mm to 19,27mm Magtech brass, than 18,3mm to 17,8mm over 6mm - thats where the "Randschlußspiegel" is in the chamber
chamber going down than to 16,85mm and over the next 60mm down the 16,4mm
20 ga magtech brass is 17,56mm on the base and 17,18 o the neck. with a resizing die and anealed brass it would be easy to press it down. glue a big muzzle loader primer or a berdan primer inside on the ballon head primer pocket and reloading can start













here you see how the hooks holding the cartriges when the barrels going forward and to the right side. show it with 16 ga shells in the 0,74" double gun action

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:49 PM)


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tinker
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #244641 - 30/03/14 09:25 AM

It makes me happy to see this!






Cheers
Tinker

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: tinker]
      #244669 - 30/03/14 08:31 PM

you are right about it, dreyse guns make you happy

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Matabele
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #244686 - 31/03/14 05:13 AM

Awesome.

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Matabele]
      #244744 - 01/04/14 06:23 AM

so wait till I let the cat out of the bag one day how to make reloadable brass for the needle fire rifles.

in my brain its ready and working flawless to bad I am 150 years to late for the military rifle.
would have been a big success than also for converting the french chassepot rifle. to bad I am allways to late with my bright ideas

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245149 - 06/04/14 10:28 PM

why not making this the Franz von Dreyse double gun thread

here is an interesting center fire version for sale in switzerland
http://www.waffenbuergin.ch/w157o/gebrau...-wn-21144-.html
gun number 21144 ( my gun is 23673) steal barrels and action( you see this guns were build complete in steel or damascus steel) in 24 ga. left and 11mm shot right with a 11mm rotation piece insert








the dog on the underlever again






I will send the gunmaker a mail if the barrel insert is in 11,2x60R

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:52 PM)


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tinker
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245151 - 06/04/14 10:36 PM

Lust.

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245153 - 06/04/14 10:49 PM

this is again for sale as a center fire modification now in 16 ga it startet probably as a 0,70" randschlußpatrone, gun number looks like 17382
I will ask the seller for more informations
http://www.antique-firearms.de/?id=2&ant=2120&kt=0

interesting is the cased underlever! it seems only the smoothbore chamber is now with the gun also you can see the hook on the exchangeable right chamber





















.
.
.


I have got an answer now about the serial number. hartmut burger was so kind to inform me that this 070" double gun have the serial number 17334

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:53 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245154 - 06/04/14 11:27 PM

we had it before http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=120822&an=0&page=5

the standing rear sight show this one was build as a double rifle with the possibility to make a combination gun or a double gun when necessary
gun number 15269




F. v. Dreyse. 18 mm calibre, no. 15269. Fixed rear sight and nickel-silver front sight. Mirror-like bores without rifling. The bullet spin is brought about by the rifling within the chambers. Barrel surfaces lightly reworked and newly finished. Lever action which swings barrels to the right for loading. The company name on barrel inlaid with silver "F. v. Dreyse". Locks with fine silver wire inlay. Iron furniture with ornamental and flower engraving. Selected walnut stock with fine chequering, a little chip on the left side has been professionally restored. Horn trigger guard. Length 115 cm.
The principle of rifled chambers was meant to protect the barrels from wear and soiling, did, however, not gain acceptance. Cf. Hermann Historica, 52nd auction, lot 1332. Length 115 cm.
With two rotating chambers of utmost rarity. "

sold at Hermann Historica München

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:54 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245155 - 06/04/14 11:41 PM

this was a more basic double gun for sale on egun some times ago
0,70" Randschlußpatrone, the egun in steal and more basic, serial number not clear to see

























--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:55 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245156 - 07/04/14 12:13 AM

a 0,70" Randschluß damascus steel double gun
serial number not identifiable













--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:55 PM)


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rigbymauser
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245159 - 07/04/14 12:45 AM

Thanks for sharing Lancaster.

I Always get educated in your postings.

Mit freundlischen Grüsse...


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Igorrock
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: rigbymauser]
      #245162 - 07/04/14 01:13 AM

lancaster, what you mean as "steal" ? (=klauen auf deutsch)

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Igorrock]
      #245169 - 07/04/14 02:54 AM

Quote:

lancaster, what you mean as "steal" ? (=klauen auf deutsch)




of course "klauen"

Edit(h) was here



its time to start a little research about this lovely early double guns

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (07/04/14 02:56 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245193 - 07/04/14 04:26 PM

because we have no facts about the production of the Dreyse double I can only try to find some key data

the original needle fire double gun was developt by Franz Dreyse in 1856 and was more or less like this:








it was very close to the military needle fire rifle and shoot a pure paper cartridge, the illustration found in Zimmer " Die Jagd Feuer Gewehre" 1877 showing a break down action with the well known underlever. this 1877 edition was the second and Zimmer describe this as the old model not in production anymore so I think it was the the state of the art in 1869 when the first edition came out.

this gun number 7506 looking like this first model in some points. the barrels turn to the right side but the breech have two bolts which grib into the barrels end and close it
what I can read there is Cal. Randschlussspiegelpatr. 0,71" in te action what gives a new mystery. why not 0,70" and why are there no ectractor hooks? probably we have an early transition gun around 1870 but the 0,71" cartridge designation is also on another dreyse gun so I think there must have been another cartridge standing between the old paper cartridge and the Schlussspiegelpatrone.















the following illustrations show the "new" model but only with the cartridge ejector hooks on the underside of the action in 1876. the hooks on the action to grip the rim from above also are described as a new invention in the text.



this will probably date guns with the upper hooks made after 1874/75






I dont know when dreyse start to make this gun for Lancaster shotgun and centerfire rifle´cartridges also. the 24ga/11mm gun numer 21144 is not wide from my own needle fire project in 074" with number 21111 so its clear Dreyse make needle and center fire guns like they had orders

this 1891 illustration showing the upper grad model for center fire cartridges but it was not the last. many years ago I had a beautyfull 16 ga in my hands that was for sale by a dealer from denmark.
very long barrels maybe 80 cm and a nice fox in silver on the action but the barrels break again and did not turn to the side. never see such gun again it must have been on of the last made before 1994 when Franz von Dreyse died.


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:56 PM)


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tinker
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245194 - 07/04/14 05:45 PM

Such neat guns!


Want!


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: tinker]
      #245213 - 08/04/14 05:19 AM

I will look into the Hermann Historica auction catalogs in the next day for more dreyse guns. this rifle here was sold in 2012




http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/auktion-65.html

N. Dreyse in Sömmerda made in 1860/61. cal. 12,5 mm, serial number. 334. barrel 60,5 cm long and made for prussian navy officer as a gift.
what we see is a beautyfull stutzen not a double but only one rifled barrel made as a break action in the general lines of the dreyse double gun ZIMMER describe as the "old " modell. giving as a gift in the beginning of 1861 it was probably made in 1860. the dreyse hunting gun was developt by Franz Dreyse in 1856 so I would think its the hunting gun number 334 made since 1856 AND ALL dreyse hunting guns are in one group of serial numbers








also a very early double gun with the number 2488 for the 0,64" randschlusspatrone and without the hooks on the action.




sold by HH in 2012 http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/auktion-64.html

there was the 0,59", the 0,64", the 0,70" and the 0,74" and we can say that this is more or less a 28, 24, 20 and 16ga. and so we can also say that at least with gun number 2488 Dreyse make the gun for the randschlusspatrone. when we see that hunting gun number 334 was made in 1860 this are more or less 100 hunting guns a year and when thinking this was common Dreyse was close to number 2000 when the french - german war came in 1870. the dreyse factory was very busy to make military rifles in this decade so hunting guns were secondary. sometimes between 1969 and 1871 there must have been the change from the old to new model.
so whats now with the gun number 7506


Zimmer write in his book 1876 that Dreyse was still making the old model on special order. ok, its not realy the old model because its not the break action anymore but it looks like make for a paper cartridge. so this was maybe one of the special order guns.



Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:57 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245233 - 08/04/14 03:57 PM

a double gun in "18mm" probably 074" sold by Hermann Historica in 2008
with the upper cartridge ectractor hooks but the old style lock release lever



the underlever is cased with horn something rare but also in combination with a lower grade steel made gun here if we think that the damascus steel made guns were allways higher grades and more expensive.

as a "16mm" this is probably a 070"
beautyful damascus steel and the inlay work in gold and not in the common silver, the serial number 8871 also in gold





sold by HH in 2009

a "17,5mm" ? maybe a 0,74" serial number 3815





sold by HH in 2009



Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:58 PM)


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tinker
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245257 - 09/04/14 04:34 AM

8871 looks fantastic!

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"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: tinker]
      #245288 - 09/04/14 03:51 PM

yes, fantastic damascus steel

with number 3815 we come near to the point when dreyse start to set the upper hooks on the action. that happen what I believe around 1874/75 also the number 2488 goes into the direction when the factory starts production of the new model for the Randschlusspatrone cartridge. I hope we will find some days guns near each other showing this turning points.

mister bürgin from switzerland was so kind to inform me that this gun shots an true 11mm bullet with a 49mm long cylindrical case.






http://www.waffenbuergin.ch/w157o/gebrau...-wn-21144-.html

I believe its a version of the 410mm/36ga brass case that was used in different lengths in germany as the "Lancaster Kugel" or LK meaning Lancaster bullet cartridge because center fire shotgun cases were Lancaster cases. this gun have also two smooth barrels shooting the bullet with the Rotationsstück seeing on pic no. 2 above.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:59 PM)


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tinker
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245289 - 09/04/14 05:01 PM

I'd like to see bullets from those moulds.

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: tinker]
      #245323 - 09/04/14 11:03 PM

I think this are very common round nose lead bullets

Georg Koch in his book " Die Jagdgewéhre der Gegenwart" - the hunting rifles of the present age /1891
shows this hollow point bullet for the Randschlusspatrone

btw, Koch was the son in law of Franz von Dreyse

he write the hollow point is for making this big bullet lighter for giving it a better trajectory. because of the increased recoil and the sharp rifling necessary in the short "Rotationsstück" it was not possible to load more powder than 10:1 meaning 1 gramm blackpowder for 10 gramm bullet weight.
but remeber this:


this was common in this time, look at the 24 ga combination gun shooting the 21,9gramm with 2,5 gramm
blackpowder.they never shoot more than 80 meter on game, there was allways a Schweißhund and hunting was the to follow and find the game.



this is a 0,70" bullet cartridge sold in an auction here for 167 euro - they are very rare
case lenght is given as 35mm


http://www.munitionsauktion.de/browse.php?cat_id=1

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:59 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245331 - 09/04/14 11:47 PM

double gun number 18367 for sale in the united states
a 0,70" marked gun probably changed for 16 ga paper shells and center fire primer










never see a bird on the underlever before, allmost ever a dog or sometimes a fox













http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Odd%20Fel...%20Shotgun.html

also there a high grade combination gun, the chamber probably fix again
the inlay must be in gold and silver( the black lines)and fantastic damascus steel
caliber is given as "16 ga" so a 0,70" or a 0,74"
number 16012















http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Shotguns/...%20Shotgun.html

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:00 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245333 - 09/04/14 11:53 PM

What an interesting thread.

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245356 - 10/04/14 02:14 AM

btw, its also new for me a pistol exactly build like the double guns here
Rare F. Dreyse Needle Fire Double Barrel Pistol
Estimate: $1500 - 2500
Rifled barrels with a dovetail blade front sight and a single leaf rear in the smooth rib dovetail. Floral engraving / silver wire inlay on the action, under lever and trigger guard with a warrior holding a spear and shield. Double triggers, ornate pistol grip with blued steel cap, on the one piece extra fancy English walnut stock.
BBL: 8 1/4 octagon Gauge: 47 Finish: blue Grips: walnut Serial Number: 147
Condition: Fine as period refurbished with 98% blue on all the metal. Some pitting on the right side of the barrels. Light handling marks on the period revarnished stock with very fine detail on the raised relief carving. Mechanically fine.


http://www.icollector.com/Rare-F-Dreyse-Needle-Fire-Double-Barrel-Pistol_i10495025

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:01 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245358 - 10/04/14 02:19 AM

Should this thread be moved to Double Rifles?

Please advise.

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245363 - 10/04/14 02:57 AM

no,this are mostly double guns and some of them combinations guns and double guns also


here is another of the mysterious double guns with "Cal: d Schlusssp: 0.71"
serial number 5729
its clear that this is not for the 0,70" Randschlussspiegel cartridge I think it shoot a paper cartridge, the 0,71" Schlussspiegel" cartridge with some kind of wad in the end. this wad will be pressed against the breech when fired and obturate the barrel. when loading again this Schlusspiegel was removed with a hook by hand or with the next cartridge fired out of the barrel.




















http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7732807


tinker

and when you look at the tip of the forearm its different from the common gun and looks like having a hole. I am sure there was ramrod for this gun also not for loading the gun but for remove the paper cartridge if not fired after the hunt.



you can see the ramrod here in the illustration



anyway it shoots the same cartridge like number 7506 above


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:01 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245573 - 12/04/14 12:56 PM

serial number 8591 and 0,74"







sold by HH in 2007 http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:02 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245914 - 17/04/14 05:18 AM

a very early Dreyse double gun - serial number 272
described as a "20ga" a gun that shows all features of later double guns and is made in the early 1860s

you see the ramrod for removing the paper cartridge






http://www.icollector.com/Dreyse-Side-by-Side-Double-Barrel-Needle-Fire-Shotgun_i9753454

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:03 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245915 - 17/04/14 05:34 AM

gun number 3855


the wooden ramrod point to one of the "old model" guns still made after the introduction of the Randschlußpatrone we had seen was made with gun number 2488 or earlier. the " top-rib inlaid in gold 'E. SCHWIERING WEISSENFELS'" was the gunmaker who sold this gun, no doubt.
what is described here as 14 ga is probably a bigger round than the 0,71" Schlußspiegel cartridge.




"Description: E. SCHWIERING, WEISSENFELS
A 14-BORE NEEDLE-FIRE DOUBLE-BARRELLED SPORTING-GUN, MODEL 'DREYSE PATENT', serial no 3855,
circa 1865, with 29 1/4in. fine-twist damascus barrels, the top-rib inlaid in gold with 'E. SCHWIERING WEISSENFELS', the breech block inlaid with gold and silver open scrolls and bands, walnut half-stock chequered at wrist (old repair to one side), raised cheek-piece, long spurred, engraved heel-plate, horn trigger guard, the trigger-plate and swinging under-lever engraved with loose scroll on a stippled background, wood under-barrel ramrod, iron parts brushed bright."
http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/e.-schwiering,-weissenfels-a-14-bore-needle-fire-939-c-30a4ce06bc

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:03 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245916 - 17/04/14 05:52 AM

gun number 6036
0,70" and NITRO PROOFED, the gun was maybe changed for center fire priming by using short firing pins instead of the long needles. the Randschlussspiegel case was available with common center fire primer in 1904 by RMS Sömmerda. in any case this gun was not build for common Lancaster shot shells when new but its also so possible it was rechambered for such a cartridge like the 0,74" with 14ga chamber in my neighborhood.

"Gun retains a pleasing patina overall with most of the original damascus pattern still nice and crisp. Silver lettering on the barrel and inlays on the sides of the receiver are all present. Nitro proofed. Horn trigger guard is complete. Bores have a few very minor pits. Good working order. There is a very old repair to the toe of the stock. Barrels are roughly 29 inches long. Stock is fine with a minor crack under the opening lever and some minor dings. Engraving is sharp on all parts. This is a beautiful older gun. This gun was originally a needle fire that was converted to be used with standard center fire catridges. Made in Germany. Please see pictures. Serial number is 6036"












































http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11941338/g...0-gauge-shotgun

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:04 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245944 - 17/04/14 04:14 PM

a very interesting hunting rifle serial number 2798
Cal. d. Zdsn. 0.60''-5/24 Pulv - I dont find an answer for "Zdsn" but the sice of the receiver and 0,60" makes me thinking its for the prussian military cartridge


the bolt close with a cone over the barrel and the bolt handle have the typical slant position of the military rifle. but look at the bolt closly there are rear locking lugs and if this is realy the case the action is very advanced.
if this is in the serial numbers of the hunting guns(?) it will be made around 1870/71.
you see parts on this rifle coming from the double gun line.


"Dreyse - Gentleman’s Sporting Rifle, Antique, approx 1850s, Single shot bolt action Dreyse needle fire sporting rifle - 27.25" swamped octagon barrel, dovetail blade front, adjustable rear sight - walnut stock - legible markings - pleasing even patina on barrel with small spots of rust that might be carefully cleaned; platinum ring at muzzle. Frame, bolt handle, butt plate, escutcheons, ornate patch box, and trigger guard are all soft gray German silver with good quality period scroll engraving. Barrel marked ''v. Dreyse. Sommerda.''; right side frame ''Cal. d. Zdsn. 0.60''-5/24 Pulv.'' Horn flared nose cap and trigger guard extension. Sound full length stock shows usage marks and sharp checkering, Double set trigger, engraved length on bolt for replacement needle. (7th jpeg) Matching numbers on Bolt Receiver sights and barrel. Excellent Working condition. SN 2798 ... "
















http://www.gunauction.com/buy/10365597/g...ble-set-trigger


here is a rare example of a sporter made probably by a german gunsmith in the 1880s. lookslike a octagonal barrel and double set trigger so a M 65 Jägerbüchse was sporterized.






http://www.gundigest.com/military-firearms/the-needle-gun-started-it-all

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:05 PM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #246116 - 21/04/14 09:06 PM

Lancaster,

We owe you a debt of gratitude for the interesting topics you bring to this forum and your willingness to share your knowledge and experience.

Thanks,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: CptCurl]
      #246127 - 22/04/14 12:29 AM

no, I have to thank for using the forum as some kind of writing desk where I can sort my stuff and establish some order.
the "knowledge" coming with using the possibilities of the internet and most important when becoming some overview over the problems.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (22/04/14 12:31 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: CptCurl]
      #246139 - 22/04/14 02:27 AM

Quote:

Lancaster,

We owe you a debt of gratitude for the interesting topics you bring to this forum and your willingness to share your knowledge and experience.

Thanks,
Curl




I 100% agree.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: NitroX]
      #246142 - 22/04/14 02:34 AM

Always big thanks to Lancaster!

Each topic from his desk is like a vacation - that I can return to at ant time.


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: tinker]
      #246204 - 22/04/14 09:03 PM

There's one in the Australian Arms Auction this coming month.
In keeping with the above thanks - Thanks Lancaster. I would never have been able to appreciate this gun without having seen this thread and learnt about them because of you. Heck, now i'd love to own one some day, but a US trip looms in the future that is far more important

Heres the description:

#299 (for those interested)

F.V. DREYSE D/B NEEDLE FIRE SHOTGUN: 16G; 29" barrels; f. bores; top rib marked F.V.DREYSE SOMMERDA; silver inlay to breech; forward activating lever inlaid with game scene; bird; traditional horn extended t/guard; to load lever swivels to the left & barrels traverse to the right; vg profiles; clear address, inlay & engraving; soft lt brown finish to barrel, breech & fittings; g. stock with chequered wrist & cheek pc; all complete; gwo & cond. C.1880 #14786 L/R

Estimate is (AU): $600-$900.

And of course, the image:



--------------------
.

Edited by CptCurl (25/04/14 08:28 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Ash]
      #246272 - 23/04/14 04:21 PM

my thank s for your interest and for your help
please make me aware of any Dreyse hunting gun you see because it will be one piece more of the puzzle.

600-900 aus. dollar will be a good price, if described as a 16 ga its probably a 0,74" and with the 14000 serial number I put this in the late 1870s.
hope I find the time this year to make something about reloading for the two most common cartridges the 0,70" and the 0,74". actually its very simple and depending on your gun law its maybe possible to change the gun for the common center fire priming. just for the case you dont want to play with the more complicated needle fire priming. but what means complicated there is no rocket science.
under my own gunlaw here I hold them as needle fire guns because they are licence free.
in the end you got the Randschlusspiegel cartridges with needle fire and center fire primer so it was a common modification beside of the guns made for our center fire shotgun shells you find out by the cartridge ectractor.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (23/04/14 04:39 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #246291 - 23/04/14 07:43 PM

Quote:

my thank s for your interest and for your help
please make me aware of any Dreyse hunting gun you see because it will be one piece more of the puzzle.





1. Thanks for sparking our interest in these fascinating old arms.

2. Only if you make us aware also Loving this thread and keen for more. Keep posting gold, sir.

--------------------
.


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Ash]
      #247076 - 07/05/14 01:06 PM

The Dreyse i posted sold for $700 AUS.

--------------------
.


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Ash]
      #248201 - 30/05/14 10:15 PM

sold by Hermann Historica
combination gun, right barrel full rifled, missing the ramrod
this was for the old Schlußspiegel cartridge without rim and having of course no extractor hooks


.
.
.



a double gun serial number 3375, stell barrels and 14,5mm caliber what could be the 0,59" Randschlußspiegel cartridge




.
.
.

17mm so probably 0,70" Randschlußspiegel double gun with later blued damscus stell barrels







http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/

.
.
.



this 16 ga "Dreyse" could be one of the late break action guns made before 1895 if realy a Dreyse





http://www.liveauctionworld.com/Engraved...otgun_i15312663

.
.
.

for whatever reason Bonhams had this pic of a 2004 auction online





with this description" A Prussian Dreyse Patent 40-Bore Breech-Loading Needle-Fire Rifle
By F. Dreyse, Sömmerda, No. 1263, Circa 1880"
think it dont mean the double gun in the middle but the unknown bolt action below now the second rifle of this type I have found. a 40 bore must be something around a 10mm caliber.
the double gun in the middle could be one of the few chambered for center fire cartridges because it have no hooks and a standing rear sight


http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/11257/lot/175/

.
.
.

serial number 12181 in 0,70" found its way to russia
http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/1/280940.html
















.
.
.

16 ga double gun and combination gun
serial number 23978 in 16 ga with the Rotationsstück for the right barrel
http://www.euroarms.net/Photo_SS_Dreyse/pages/DREYSE%20SS%20CAL16_51.htm
































http://www.euroarms.net/Photo_SS_Dreyse/pages/DREYSE%20SS%20CAL16_51.htm


Edited by CptCurl (19/07/14 10:15 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #248203 - 30/05/14 10:39 PM

single shot rifle in 10,5x74R (? maybe a typo and its a 10,5x47R ) with octagonal barrel
serial number 302 what dont fit into my theory that all hunting guns are in one serial number range
it have crown + "V" proof what puts it into the early 1890s. I think it was made in this years when Dreyse was in decline and they use everything laying around.


http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/

it looks like the action of a Baden customs needle fire rifle made after the war of 1870/71 and still in use up to 1900 when it was replaced by Haenel made M 88 carbines




possible Dreyse was using old parts for this hunting rifle, rare and interesting single shot I wish to have it


.
.
no, think I have find it
here is a similar experimental dreyse rifle in 11,2x60R
smooth barrel with roatationskammer made in 1874/75 when first problems with the Mauser 71 occur





http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/
so the hunting rifle above may be build with a receiver left over from this trials but its clear the Baden customs rifle was the starting point

Edited by CptCurl (19/07/14 10:16 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #248204 - 30/05/14 11:17 PM

this mysterious single shot bolt action have a rear sight



similar to the old needle fire rifle





this stutzen show again similarities





with another dreyse bolt action hunting rifle in 10,5x47R build with a Mauser 71 action



the rifle was made with a set trigger that is scaled down from the M 65 Jägerbüchse double set trigger




--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (19/07/14 10:16 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #248231 - 31/05/14 04:47 AM

this F.v.Dreyse 9mm target pistol looks like the same action



and another one in 6mm Flobert



http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (19/07/14 10:17 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #249245 - 20/06/14 04:03 AM

found this gun again in the net
now with number: 10012
the gun have V +crown proof, 0,70 Randschlußspiegel cartridge





























--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (19/07/14 10:18 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #249249 - 20/06/14 06:10 AM

Quote:

single shot rifle in 10,5x74R (? maybe a typo and its a 10,5x47R ) with octagonal barrel
serial number 302 what dont fit into my theory that all hunting guns are in one serial number range
it have crown + "V" proof what puts it into the early 1890s. I think it was made in this years when Dreyse was in decline and they use everything laying around.


http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/

it looks like the action of a Baden customs needle fire rifle made after the war of 1870/71 and still in use up to 1900 when it was replaced by Haenel made M 88 carbines




possible Dreyse was using old parts for this hunting rifle, rare and interesting single shot I wish to have it


.
.
no, think I have find it
here is a similar experimental dreyse rifle in 11,2x60R
smooth barrel with roatationskammer made in 1874/75 when first problems with the Mauser 71 occur





http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/
so the hunting rifle above may be build with a receiver left over from this trials but its clear the Baden customs rifle was the starting point




This is the bolt action design Franz von Dreyse submitted for adoption as the new military rifle of the German Army in 1871. As we all know, the Mauser M71 design was chosen instead.




Edited by CptCurl (19/07/14 10:19 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: kuduae]
      #251710 - 07/08/14 07:32 PM

the dorotheum in vienna have another of this late needle fire customs rifles for sale
http://www.dorotheum.com/auktion-detail/...d0dfcdccc6240a9



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (17/09/14 09:41 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #251712 - 07/08/14 08:00 PM





15A DREYSE DBL. COMBINATION RIFLE SHOTGUN, from the 1800 s, very early gun & probably one of the first self contained cartridge rifles made, 11 MM & 16 ga., 26 bbls., light silver engraving inlays on the rear part of the bbl. Also on the bottom of the lever that slides side ways to break open gun, silver fox inlay on this lever, horn trigger guard, 2 triggers, checkered cheek rest stock with original metal buttplate, sling swivels, top of rib marked F.V. Dreyse Sommerda , adjustable rear sight, silver bead front sight, good wood with old crack near wrist has been repaired, checkering is nice & sharp, 95% blue starting to turn brown, no pitting, real nice condition, VG to exc. bores, loads by pulling rearward on the lever underneath the forend, bbl. slides forward & then slides to the right exposing chambers. $2500

http://www.goergensgunshop.com/index.php?p=1_9

a very unusual long metal forend on this combination gun, think it must be for metallic cartridges/paper hulls

will try to get more pics and the serial number

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (17/09/14 09:42 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #251714 - 07/08/14 08:30 PM

to bad only such pic survive



"A RARE SIDE-OPENING PATENT 12-BORE HAMMERLESS GUN BY F. von DREYSE (SMMERDA), NO. 33290
The pull-back rotary-underlever opening action with initial forward-sliding barrel action, the action face with double bosses, backlocks, cocking-indicators, best bold foliate-scroll engraving, lever-safety, figured stock with semi-pistolgrip and butt-plate, sling-swivels, the browned twist barrels with game-rib and silver-inlaid maker's signature
Weight 7lb. 1oz., 14in. pull, 30in. barrels, approx. I.C. (relieved) and .5/8 choke, 2in. chambers, Black Powder proof"

http://www.christies.com/lotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=1374655

you see its a very late made gun with its 33290 number for the common 12 ga paper cartridge with complete different looks but the familar forward sliding barrel action

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (17/09/14 09:42 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #251985 - 12/08/14 03:51 PM

Quote:





15A DREYSE DBL. COMBINATION RIFLE SHOTGUN, from the 1800 s, very early gun & probably one of the first self contained cartridge rifles made, 11 MM & 16 ga., 26 bbls., light silver engraving inlays on the rear part of the bbl. Also on the bottom of the lever that slides side ways to break open gun, silver fox inlay on this lever, horn trigger guard, 2 triggers, checkered cheek rest stock with original metal buttplate, sling swivels, top of rib marked F.V. Dreyse Sommerda , adjustable rear sight, silver bead front sight, good wood with old crack near wrist has been repaired, checkering is nice & sharp, 95% blue starting to turn brown, no pitting, real nice condition, VG to exc. bores, loads by pulling rearward on the lever underneath the forend, bbl. slides forward & then slides to the right exposing chambers. $2500

http://www.goergensgunshop.com/index.php?p=1_9

a very unusual long metal forend on this combination gun, think it must be for metallic cartridges/paper hulls

will try to get more pics and the serial number




get some pics




caliber marking completly gone or was never there





number 15247



the new to me long steel forend tip with the well known fox on the lever

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (17/09/14 09:43 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #252123 - 14/08/14 08:33 PM

this must be made in the early 1840
a muzzle loader needle fire doublegun for paper cartridges



















it shows many features the later breech loader have.
sold for unbelievable 1400 euro 2011 in denmark
http://www.lauritz.com/en/auction/half-s...on-dr/i2339951/

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (17/09/14 09:44 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #252150 - 15/08/14 05:08 AM

Wow!

It would be great to see the muzzles.
Also drawings of a cartridge...


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: tinker]
      #252175 - 15/08/14 04:05 PM

the cartridge must have been very similar to the military rifle cartridge but with a shot load insteed of the bullet


here you see the different military cartridges starting with a roundball in 1841

I think allways there have been some paper not completely burned in barrels what would become a problem after some shot so you have to clean the gun while hunting from time to time. it was the moment in gun history when you have to make the step from muzzle loading to breech loading firearms.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (17/09/14 09:44 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #253525 - 14/09/14 12:01 AM

another bolt action hunting rifle in 11,15x35R
http://www.progun.de/de/shop/langwaffen/...reyse&o=neu







--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (17/09/14 09:45 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #255061 - 12/10/14 10:03 PM

and here is a similar .22 long rifle rimfire gun with a scalled-down action for sale
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=5129933












--------------------
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #255723 - 26/10/14 01:57 PM

Not a Dreyse.. But nice!

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2298-369/

NUSUAL, HIGH QUALITY H.G. REIF (LEIPZIG) BOXLOCK NEEDLE FIRE MUZZLELOADING SHOTGUN.
SN NSN. Cal. 16 ga. .675 Bore diameter. This fine German creation appears to be based on Abraham Adolph Moser’s early muzzleloading needle fire patent, and has 31″ fine etched Damascus bbls with makers name “H. G. Reif in Leipzig” gold inlaid on raised, flat rib within silver inlaid scroll terminated device. There are inlaid gold bands and arabesque scroll at breech ends. The action consists of a pivoting lever with rotating silver knob mounted in forend, which when swung to the rear retracts long needle firing pins and cocks boxlock type internal hammers mounted above trigger plate. Action has pin type cocking indicators which protrude through breech iron, and studs with notches, one on trigger plate finial, the other in forend, which hold cocking lever in either front or rear position. In forward position mechanism can be fired. In rear position it is “safe”. This gun was made to fire a self contained combustible cartridge, similar to the Dreyse with priming behind projectile. Metal work is embellished with exceptionally fine engraving consisting of gold inlay accented shaded scroll on breech section with hound and hare chase scene on rib extension. Breech iron with more gold inlaid scroll has hunting scene of Jaeger with hound pursuing a fox. A hunting dog is gold inlaid on trigger guard, which has silver inlay of bushes in foreground. There are other gold accents on scrolled trigger guard, operating lever, and trigger plate finial. Steel trigger guard terminates in scroll carved ebony grip. Fine stump figured and lightly marbled European walnut stock features an ebony buttplate with molded sides, right hand cheekpiece, sliding patchbox, and sling button. It is embellished with excellent Germanic carving of acanthus leaves and flowers shaded by checkering at grip and with a greenman/ lion peering from each side panel. A full relief carving of hunting dog and various game is behind cheekpiece framed by acanthus scroll. Forend terminates in stylized wolf’s head with ebony and mother-of-pearl eyes. A brass headed ramrod is held by two plain pipes on bbl, one mounted with broad sling loop. CONDITION: Fine. Metal parts retain an overall brown to gray patina. Stock retains nearly all of its orig varnish finish with numerous minor marks and scratches. There is a small crack in left side panel. Carving shows light wear at grip, but is excellent overall. Cocking pivot base washer is an old replacement, and is loose. An exceptionally interesting German transitional gun of very fine quality, worthy of further study. 4-51429 MGM89 (3,000-5,000) – Lot 2298



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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Ash]
      #255726 - 26/10/14 02:06 PM

And a Dreyse rifle!

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2299-369/

EXTREMELY RARE DREYSE FAUCET BREECH NEEDLE FIRE CARBINE.
SN 8354. 19"; octagonal bbl. Blade front sight, adjustable rear sight, rectangular sling swivel, underneath bbl. Left side of bbl has two Gothic “M’s” at breech below SN 8354. All parts have matching numbers. Crank spindle at breech opens to receive a cartridge loaded through port on top of bbl. It has a checkered walnut stock with sling stud on bottom. Fire blue trigger. Steel trigger guard. PROVENANCE: Journal article entitled “The Dreyse Faucet Breech Rifle” By Larry B. Schuknecht outlining the development of this rare gun. CONDITION: Good condition, retaining about 15% original blue with light surface pitting that is fading to brown, fire blue on trigger is still visible, wood on stock. Stock is well worn with nicks and dings and a crack from the wrist up to the breech on the right side. It retains original color, and nice wood grain. There is flattening on the checkering. Bore is dull and lightly pitted. Trigger guard has been professionally repaired. Mechanics are very good. 4-51022 BWS158 (1,500-2,500) – Lot

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Ash]
      #255880 - 28/10/14 03:51 PM

this small Dreyse carbines are not realy rare here.







http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2299-369/

they were probably used for indorr target practise and shooting little pest like the Flobert rimfire salon or garden guns. I have not mention them here till now because they are not real hunting guns. the action have some similaritys with the military rifles. the bolt which hold the neddle looks like a scaled down military bolt.
the rifles shooting the 9,4mm Dreyse Damengewehr (Lady's Rifle) cartridge

the short cartridge, number 29 here


http://www.ch-munition.ch/sammlung_papierpatr/papierpatr_clips/12.jpg
http://www.ch-munition.ch/sammlung_papierpatr/sammlung_clips.htm



here is another of this Saloon rifles in the next hermann historica auction
a E. F. Büchel in Mehlis 8 mm rifle for shooting with primer pills made around 1860



http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/onlinekatalogeneu/schusswaffenneu.html


such small needle fire rifle were made also in england in this time for the Eley needle fire cartridges in 75, 90 and 110 bore, imho not powerful enough as a rook rifle


again in the next HH auction
http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/onlinekatalogeneu/schusswaffenneu.html

here you have more about the eley needle fire cartridges




http://www.oldammo.com/april09.htm

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #255882 - 28/10/14 04:04 PM

a 12 mm needle fire hunting rifle by Pauly & Cie., Paris made around 1860


in the next HH auction in november
http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/onlinekatalogeneu/schusswaffenneu.html
a break down action with a button under the rifle to unlock the forearm. when you push the forearm in the off position the barrel break.
Pauly was the master where Dreyse as a young man come to know about breech loader.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #255885 - 28/10/14 04:47 PM

Excellent!

Thanks for the photo of sectioned cartridge.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Ash]
      #255924 - 29/10/14 04:35 AM

Quote:

Not a Dreyse.. But nice!

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2298-369/

NUSUAL, HIGH QUALITY H.G. REIF (LEIPZIG) BOXLOCK NEEDLE FIRE MUZZLELOADING SHOTGUN.
SN NSN. Cal. 16 ga. .675 Bore diameter. This fine German creation appears to be based on Abraham Adolph Moser’s early muzzleloading needle fire patent, and has 31″ fine etched Damascus bbls with makers name “H. G. Reif in Leipzig” gold inlaid on raised, flat rib within silver inlaid scroll terminated device. There are inlaid gold bands and arabesque scroll at breech ends. The action consists of a pivoting lever with rotating silver knob mounted in forend, which when swung to the rear retracts long needle firing pins and cocks boxlock type internal hammers mounted above trigger plate. Action has pin type cocking indicators which protrude through breech iron, and studs with notches, one on trigger plate finial, the other in forend, which hold cocking lever in either front or rear position. In forward position mechanism can be fired. In rear position it is “safe”. This gun was made to fire a self contained combustible cartridge, similar to the Dreyse with priming behind projectile. Metal work is embellished with exceptionally fine engraving consisting of gold inlay accented shaded scroll on breech section with hound and hare chase scene on rib extension. Breech iron with more gold inlaid scroll has hunting scene of Jaeger with hound pursuing a fox. A hunting dog is gold inlaid on trigger guard, which has silver inlay of bushes in foreground. There are other gold accents on scrolled trigger guard, operating lever, and trigger plate finial. Steel trigger guard terminates in scroll carved ebony grip. Fine stump figured and lightly marbled European walnut stock features an ebony buttplate with molded sides, right hand cheekpiece, sliding patchbox, and sling button. It is embellished with excellent Germanic carving of acanthus leaves and flowers shaded by checkering at grip and with a greenman/ lion peering from each side panel. A full relief carving of hunting dog and various game is behind cheekpiece framed by acanthus scroll. Forend terminates in stylized wolf’s head with ebony and mother-of-pearl eyes. A brass headed ramrod is held by two plain pipes on bbl, one mounted with broad sling loop. CONDITION: Fine. Metal parts retain an overall brown to gray patina. Stock retains nearly all of its orig varnish finish with numerous minor marks and scratches. There is a small crack in left side panel. Carving shows light wear at grip, but is excellent overall. Cocking pivot base washer is an old replacement, and is loose. An exceptionally interesting German transitional gun of very fine quality, worthy of further study. 4-51429 MGM89 (3,000-5,000) – Lot 2298






a great example















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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #256121 - 31/10/14 02:55 PM

mod. 1841 military needle rifle sporterized



















http://www.19thcenturyweapons.com/808/dreysesport.html

needle fire double gun number 16916 0,70" steel barrels
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=5163232















I ask the gunmaker who have this bolt action shown before for the serial number







http://www.progun.de/de/shop/langwaffen/...reyse&o=neu

its 23360 and when we remember this rifle fire the 11,15x35R grenzaufseher cartridge developt for a Mauser 71 style rifle in 1879 the number 23360 could not be before 1880.
makes a nice roe deer stalking rifle


0,70" double gun with steel barrels
http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?friend_error=1&gun_id=100422827#email_error











Edited by lancaster (02/11/14 02:36 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #256123 - 31/10/14 04:19 PM

in the past i dont care about the other Dreyse gun's because they were not hunting gun's but the question is now for me if a look on this guns will help to understand the Dreyse serial number's better.
it seem's clear that military and police ordered weapen's have own blocks of serial numbers but could it be that all gun's made for the civilian market have following serial number's to the end?


neddle fire revolver, 039" and number 2628
Hermann Historica probably placed in right between 1865 and 1870


http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/a...;db=kat47_2.txt

nice little stutzen for the 0,34" number not clear to see but four-digit















http://www.antique-firearms.de/?id=2&ant=877&kt=1

revolver 0,39" number 6967
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/524880531543368619/


revolver 0,35", number looks like 4951


http://www.handgunsoftheworld.com/catalog/item/7369235/9213535.htm

single shot pistol, 034" number 15556
http://www.icollector.com/DREYSE-NEEDLEFIRE-BREECHLOADING-M1835-PISTOL_i17332833











single shot pistol 0,34" number 2018 and marked with N(icolaus) v. Dreyse
http://www.horstheld.com/0-dreyse.htm

Dreyse became "von" in 1864 and died in December 1867 so number 2018 must be between this dates




















single shot 0,34" number 7163 - this is marked with N.Dreyse so without the "v." ???
http://www.horstheld.com/0-dreyse.htm















revolver 0,39" number 11066







" Hello,
just for your information:
Your Dreyse needle-fire revolver with troop marking G.L.G.26 (not G.E.G.26.) has been bought from Prussia in 1880 and was in use with the Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Mecklenburg-Strelitz Land-Gendarmerie. So the marking is to be read as Großherzogliche Land-Gendarmerie Revolver N°26.
source: Adalbert Mila; Uniformierungs-Liste des Deutschen Reichs-Heeres und der Kaiserlichen Deutschen Marine, Berlin, 4. Auflage 1881.
Regard
U. L.
Thank you!"
http://www.horstheld.com/0-dreyse.htm

a 11066 serial number in the 1880s would fit fine into the shotgun number's!


revolver 0,35" number 5064
Franz v. Dreyse
http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Odd%20Fel...%20Pistols.html




#


0,35" number 1695 BUT marked Franz Dreyse

as we have seen 2018 must be made after the nobilitaion in 1864 so this must be made before. I only wonder that this revolver is marked with Franz Dreyse the son of Nicolaus who got the firm in 1867/68.









target rifle, 034" number 14956
http://www.lander-historic-arms.de/objekt.php?bildnummer=3&kat=1&a=140









single shot pistol 6mm Flobert number 37458
http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/



revolver 0,34" number 593 F.Dreyse
again this Revolver is marked with Franz Dreyse whats in the end no wonder because it was Franz invention. the man who make the description here have some informations I am looking for:

"Zündnadelrevolver
F.Dreyse, Sömmerda um 1860
Kaliber .34 Preußischer Zoll, Seriennummer 593, double action. Achtkantiger Lauf mit gezogener Seele. Sechsschüssige Trommel. Rahmen mit Ziergravur, seitlich gestempelt "Cal. 0,34 12 Gran Pulv.". Über der Trommel silbertauschierte Herstellerbezeichnung "F. Dreyse", die Nadelhülse mit silbernern Bandeinlagen. Griffstück mit feinem Fischhautverschnitt. Metallteile mit Resten von Bläuung, teils fleckig. Stellenweise leicht narbig. Länge 29 cm.
Extrem frühe Ausführung mit niedriger Seriennnummer. Insgesamt wurden nur 13000 Revolver (zivil und militärisch) diesen Typs gefertigt."

very early revolver(indeed) low serial number make around 1860 ... in all only 13000 revolver were made.
or he have never seen a revolver over 13000 what follow my theory must be in the end of the 1870s when the revolver was outdated.





revolver 0,35" number 1694
Herman Historica date it arround 1865/66 buts is marked F.Dreyse/Sömmerda so before 1864
http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/



revolver 0,35" number 5331 http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/
Hermann Historica date this revolver 4000 digits later again in 1865 ???? its markeds Franz v. Dreyse





revolver 0,39" number 6836 F.v. Dreyse
http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/
auction description is not clear because they put it into the 1500 revolver bought in the war 1870/71. but they write about imperial eagle stamp on the revolver what could not be before 1871.
I will see if there is a number on a gun/rifle and on a revolver the revolver must be numbered for itself.




revolver 030" number 11041 Fv. Dreyse
http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/





single shot pistol for the 9,5x47R number 29973 http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/
with a serial number close to 30000 it must be very late and indeed it have the crone+V stamp so made around 1891









revolver 0,35" number 3043 v. Dreyse Sömmerda
http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/




single shot pistol number 30840 9mm caliber
http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/



revolver 0,35" number 5438 http://militaria-fundforum.de/mff_datenbank/showthread.php?115389-Dreyse-Z%FCndnadel-Revolver













next step will be to make a list of this guns to see if numbers will be seen twice but it looks like all guns will fit into one list of serial numbers. I will see whats possible to find some landmarks for date the guns better.
I have the RMS Sömmerda (früher v. Dreyse'sche Gewehrfabrik) ammo catalog. its without a date but contain the 6,35 Browning/25 ACP which came on the market in 1904. under needle fire ammunition you read " when order ammunition for guns made in our factory please give the serial number of the gun to avoid problem's". so in this time they had the complete records for all civilian gun's to find out which ammo you need. this was important because there are special made gun's for early cartridges in time's when they were official replaced in production by new model's.

--------------------
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Edited by lancaster (31/10/14 08:44 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #256132 - 31/10/14 09:59 PM

look into Wirtgen" Das Zündnadelgewehr" and there is another revolver 0,39" number 6862 similar to the revolver 6836 above also with the same "RC" stamp for the military revision commission. to make it a little bit more complicated this revolver have also the crone +V proof after 1891. its the standard book about needle fire rifle's but dont know anything about 1500 revolver bough in the war of 1870/71. it say this revolver's were bought for a trial before the war. anyway if this is true I can cut of the idea that the Franz v. Dreyse revolver were in serial number block of the other civilian hunting and target guns and rifles.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #256192 - 02/11/14 03:28 AM

look again in Koch's book about this rifle








and because it dont have a name we will call it what he did. this bolt action is the "Dreyse Patent Kammerschloß" what will be in english "Dreyse Patent boltaction". I believe this term will distinguish this bolt action enough from the old dreyse needle fire bolt action and recommend to use it.









there is something, an unsolved mystery in this book that worry me for years now. Koch describe in his book a 12mm needle fire stalking rifle from the early 1860s but sometimes still in use in 1890.
this should be a break action single shot working similar like the teschner action. when push a underlever like we know it from the double guns the barrel slide forward until it come free from the "kammer" and then break down. problem is I never see such a break down rifle and till now all single shot rifles I have seen - not many - had barrels swing out to the right side as usual.


something like this older single shot rifle here


the general style of this rifle shows an older model probably from the 1860s. its clearly to see that this rifle shots a needle fire paper cartridge without base like Koch describe for the "12mm stalking rifle". notice that the trigger guard seems to be the same you see on the M 65 Jägerbüchse





Koch is writing that this 12mm Needle fire rifle shot a paper cartridge with the common paper made sabot and the primer pill in the base of this. the bullet was hold by the sabot but unlike the military rifle the bullet had some contact with the rifling and dont fill it complete.
the RMS ammo catalog have cartridges for the "Zündnadel-Rotations-Büchse 11mm"


not only rifle cartridges but shotgun cartridges too. The "Rotations - Büchse" means this rifle was using the now well known Dreyse rifled chamber insert


and by changing it you had a small bore shotgun. the 11mm caliber would fit his description of a bullet in contact with rifling but dont fill the 12mm barrel.

--------------------
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (02/11/14 03:06 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #256213 - 02/11/14 03:04 PM

this thing become now so long I lost the overview
the rifle I looking for is allreay here on the first page


"


http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/auktion-65.html
N. Dreyse in Sömmerda made in 1860/61. cal. 12,5 mm, serial number. 334. barrel 60,5 cm long and made for prussian navy officer as a gift.
what we see is a beautyfull stutzen not a double but only one rifled barrel made as a break action in the general lines of the dreyse double gun ZIMMER describe as the "old " modell. giving as a gift in the beginning of 1861 it was probably made in 1860. the dreyse hunting gun was developt by Franz Dreyse in 1856 so I would think its the hunting gun number 334 made since 1856 AND ALL dreyse hunting guns are in one group of serial numbers"

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=244637&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

back to the F.v.Dreyse Patent bolt action...

find it in Rudolf Schmidt "Die Handfeuerwaffen" 1877 Basel/Switzerland











so despit of the fact that the probably oldest experimental rifle with this action having a "1870" mark the Patent bolt action got the patent on february 23, 1874. that means probably that the last needle rifle model for the Baden customs was made after 1874 when the Mauser 71 was allready in production.this seems hard to understand but maybe it was a question of money like most times in life. 100 cartridges for the needle fire rifle have cost 4,50 mark and 100 cartridges for the Mauser 71 8,75 mark. after all I have learned about bureaucracy this seems reason enough.

Edited by lancaster (02/11/14 03:37 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #256285 - 05/11/14 07:28 AM

think I have two milestones again when dating Dreyse guns
remember that Franz v. Dreyse died in 1894 and the family sold the firm to Rheinmetall in 1901. I presume that the new Rheinmetall Sömmerda dont make sporting rifles anymore because the firm was bought for making artillery stuff for Rheinmetall. of course there were eceptions like the Dreyse selfloading carbine


what was more or less a by-product of the selflopading pistol 07


so the highest number of a Franz v. Dreyse marked gun is this
"A RARE SIDE-OPENING PATENT 12-BORE HAMMERLESS GUN BY F. von DREYSE (SMMERDA), NO. 33290



I assume that between 1894 and 1899 guns were marked only with " v. Dreyse Sömmerda"
in 1899 the Munitions&Waffenfabrik Sömmerda AG was founded where Heinrich Ehrhardt had more or less the control. here is a headstamp of a 5,6x33 with the M&W Soemmerda headstamp:





http://www.cartridgecollector.net/t55-57-x-33-dreyse

and whats with the serial numbers then?


MUN. & WAFFENFABR SOMMERDA
A 7.9mm BOLT-MAGAZINE SPORTING RIFLE, serial no. 37531 http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp...no=&image=0

number 37531 is made in the time of Munitions&Waffenfabrik Sömmerda AG between 1899 and 1901

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #256978 - 19/11/14 03:46 PM

before the context get lost the serial number of the .22 claiber patent rifle above is 31039. the rifle is without any proof so sold before 1891. here is another patent rifle with V/crown between 1891 and 1893 on top in the Dreyse logo



R/crown and "6,5mm" on the right side of the barrel show this rifle was proof after 1912.to bad the serial number is not available but it seem obvious it must be near to the .22 rifle. the rifle was probably rebored or rechamered after 1912 and my own opinion goes to the 6,5x27R.









Courtesy of Alain Daubresse
http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20allemande/a%20dreyse%20gb.htm


I see now that the patent action was made in 3 different length's
a short action



an intermediate length like here for the 11,15x37R






and a long action for cartridges like 10,5x47R




or 11,15x60R


notice the intermediate and the long action having an additional stud on the bolt. this work together with the bolt lever in opened positon as a guide rib.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #257055 - 22/11/14 01:40 AM

Just found this:

"SN 1. Cal. 11mm. Dreyse Patent Model/Sample Bolt Action, Mauser 71 cartridge, only bore leed rifled, action sample as Patent Model for British Patent 4198/7, marked "FRANZ VON DREYSE SOMMERDA, GEWEHRSCHLOSS MODEL u LAUF mit ROTATION EINRICHTUNG". Unique factory demonstration piece or patent application model showing the workings of the Dreyse patent action with rifling restricted to a short length immediately before the chamber in the bore leed, the remainder of the barrel being smoothbored to reduce bullet friction in the bore. All metal is in the white with the exception of the trigger and has scattered light brown patina. Mechanics fine and action is crisp. SN 1 on left side of bbl flat. Bbl has only lead rifling with remainder smooth bore. PROVENANCE: Collection of Dr. Geoffrey Sturgess. CONDITION: Antique, good to very good. Wooden portion of stock shows numerous dings and handling marks. 4-53079 DW58"







--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

Edited by chapmen (22/11/14 01:42 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #257056 - 22/11/14 02:36 AM











just obtained this Dreyse 11mm double rifle. Anyone know where I can get additional information on it? Origin, Value, date of manufacture...etc. Sorry to hijack the thread.

cwilson


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #257068 - 22/11/14 02:48 PM

thats realy unigue chapman, do you know when the british patent was given?

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: cwilson]
      #257069 - 22/11/14 03:40 PM

hallo cwilson
you dont hijack this thread in any way, it goes on and on just to clear the question you and me have
this is a very interesting double rifle and I wish it stand in my safe.
it was made in the Franz von Dreyse gun factory in Sömmerda/Germany. the gold on your barrel dont lie to you.
value is allways a question and if you wish to know it exactly just give it in an auction. I see it sale here for 3000 -3500 euro.
Franz v. Dreyse die in 1894 and the firm was taking over partly by Rheinmetall in 1899 and complete in 1901.it seems after Franz died the firm marked guns with "v.Dreyse Sömmerda" so your double rifle with the serial number 34230 was made before his dead. for many reason we need more pics of your rifle. if it have the german proof marks we can date this double in the 1893/94 period. serial number 37531 is made after 1899 but the firm was in trouble in this years and we can imagine they dont make many guns in this harder times.
the old double gun from 1856 was very outdated in 1890 by the modern hammerless boxlock and sidelock actions from britain we still have in use today and if there wasn't the conservative prussian gentry the problem may have occur earlier. to chamber the guns for the so called Lancaster shotgun cartridges ( the type we still have in use) was not the answer and in the last years there was a lot of trial to find a new and more modern action like this 12ga hammerless dounle gun, serial number 33290 here.


they made also common toplever hammer guns like this 16 ga/11,15x60R combination gun probably after 1894.




http://www.vdb-waffen.de/de/gebrauchtwaf...reyse&o=neu

you have to look very closely on this hammergun to see the Dreyse design DNA in it and its only in things like stock, carved horn pistol grib and forearm tip telling you who the craftsman were making this. there was at least another action with the dreyse underleaver but the barrels break normal.



your double rifle is something in between and it seems to me the firing pins will be unlock with this massive piece at the end of the action by press the button on top. please make so many pics as possible showing how the action is working, proof and caliber marks under the barrel respectively on the action.
do you shoot the double rifle?

--------------------
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Edited by lancaster (22/11/14 06:30 PM)


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chapmen
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #257070 - 22/11/14 08:59 PM

Quote:

thats realy unigue chapman, do you know when the british patent was given?




i have tried to find in online, nothing so far. I dont find even the german patent.

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Edited by chapmen (22/11/14 09:09 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #257071 - 22/11/14 11:03 PM

chapman, finally I find out that the Dreyse Patent action like the Mauser 71 have an extractor but no ejector. is this the case with your rimfire rifle too?

I was wonder before what this is for a part on the right side of the reciever here.


have showing the rifle above, its the only patent rifle till now with this unknown part. maybe some kind of ejector made later and this would also explain the R/crown proof after 1912.

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chapmen
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #257075 - 23/11/14 02:35 AM

I have seen this part in the pic before and was also wondering about it.
As you see in the pic my rimfire has only an extractor.



In this advertisment Dreyse offers "Pürschbüchsen in drei Größen/ Stalking rifles in three sices" 1886. So maybe these are the anounced ones.



Do you have found the german patent?

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #257080 - 23/11/14 03:43 AM

Koch, Jagdwaffenkunde, 1899:


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #257082 - 23/11/14 04:44 AM

Quote:


In this advertisment Dreyse offers "Pürschbüchsen in drei Größen/ Stalking rifles in three sices" 1886. So maybe these are the anounced ones.








imho, could be no other action then this we talking about...
so I was right with my theory about a short, intermediate and long action for the patent rifle

no, dont look for the german patent but must be easy to find if Schmidt is right in his book with the "23. Februar 1874" for the patent action and the "28. august 1875" for the rifling insert or "Rotationsstück". the idea of a short rifled part to convert smoothbore muskets was old than and coming from his father. I understand that this patent was for an exchangable insert what in the end means that sporting guns with "Rotationsstück" were made after august 1875.

btw cwilson, dont forget your beautyful double rifle

when we talking again about the double guns there is an interesting pinfire in auction in denmark just now http://www.lauritz.com/de/auktion/jagtge...asmus/i3635263/

its the first pinfire double I have seen with barrel swing out to like a dreyse.
I would set it in the time before 1864




























Edited by lancaster (23/11/14 05:09 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #257083 - 23/11/14 05:21 AM

Thats an little point that makes we wonder- you find easy the Patent for the "Rotationsstück", but not the patent for the earlier action.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #257150 - 25/11/14 02:52 AM

Lancaster:

Thanks for the information. I took a few more pictures of the action and proof marks. Let me know if these help any.










I am impressed by the amount of engraving on these guns. Most of them that I have found pictures have engraving which would be ornate by todays standards and very expensive to accomplish.


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chapmen
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: cwilson]
      #257153 - 25/11/14 03:57 AM

Here is one more very nice Dreyse - given to Wilhelm II in 1896.

"591: Zündnadel-Versuchspistole, Sömmerda 1866, Geschenk an Kaiser Wilhelm II.

Limitpreis: 9800 Euro
Achtkantiger, gebläuter Lauf. Gezogen. 12mm. Brünierter, eckiger Schlosskasten. Spannen und Laden durch Drehhebel. Schlosskasten bez, "F v. Dreyse, Sömmerda 1866". Holzgriff mit graviertem Schild "Seiner Majestät Kaiser Wilhelm II. gewidmet von Dreyse, Sömmerda, 1896. Sehr interessant. Unberührter Fundzustand. Eigentlich unbenutzt und neuwertig, jedoch durch Lagerung einige Rostflecke. 39,5cm.
Zustand: II"

http://www.stauffer-auktionen.de/unsere-aktuelle-auktion/schusswaffen.html



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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #257161 - 25/11/14 06:49 AM

interesting pistol, the Dreyse heirs give a lot of experimental guns as a gift to the kaiser who again send this guns into the zeughaus in berlin where they allready had a great collection of needle fire guns. this is described in Wirtgen "Das Zündnadelgewehr"



I wonder how this pistol came in private hands

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #257162 - 25/11/14 06:57 AM

cwilson, you have a great double rifle

I see it made in 1893/94, it have correct german proof come in use in 1893 and bears the name of franz von dreyse who died in 1894. excellent double rifle in a great caliber also the very first Dreyse double having a stock with pistol grib and till now the F. v. Dreyse gun with the highest serial number. can you show in steps how to lock and unlock the firing pins?

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #257169 - 25/11/14 08:10 AM

Quote:

Thats an little point that makes we wonder- you find easy the Patent for the "Rotationsstück", but not the patent for the earlier action.



Simple: The German Deutsches Reichs Patent Law became effective in 1876 only. Before, patents or privileges were a matter of the many independent German states like Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony, Wuertemberg, Baden, Brunswick and many even smaller ones. All had their own patent laws, habits and archiving. Probably there never was any patent for the pre-1870 designs by Nikolaus or Franz von Dreyse. Soemmerda and the Dreyses were in Prussia. Prussia as a rule never patented anything that might be of military importance to the realm.


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: kuduae]
      #257193 - 25/11/14 07:04 PM

This could be an answer. But i still hope to find something......

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Edited by chapmen (25/11/14 07:13 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #257203 - 26/11/14 03:46 AM

I am not sure how to cock/uncock the triggers.. I see no other way than to dry-fire the gun. I think the gun cocks both triggers when the action is opened and closed. There is no button or de-cocking lever that I can see. But I am not an expert at all. Here are a few more photos.









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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: cwilson]
      #257206 - 26/11/14 03:59 AM

That being the case, snap caps would be in order to protect the pins.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Daryl_S]
      #257213 - 26/11/14 05:33 AM

Quote:

I am not sure how to cock/uncock the triggers.. I see no other way than to dry-fire the gun. I think the gun cocks both triggers when the action is opened and closed.



As such actions are usually cocked by the opening lever, close the gun with both triggers pulled and easing the underlever forward. You will notice the mainsprings pushing the lever to the closed position.


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: kuduae]
      #257215 - 26/11/14 06:42 AM

there are three different levels how to make a safety

1. you block some part in the gun action, usualy the trigger
2. you block the firing pin
3. you release the main spring and that bring the highest level of safety

Dreyse hunting guns allways release the main spring and I suppose your double rifle will do it also.
you see here the old Dreyse double gun. the "firing pins" in fact the needle holder are cocked but when you push the lever between the firing pins you loose the casing or unit which hold the firing pins and main springs. at once the casing is coming back, uncock both main springs and now the double gun is complete safe! when you push the casing back into the receiver you cock both main springs again...




on your pics it looks to me that your double have some kind of cover panel at the rear end of the receiver and when you push the button inside the red circle I made here you also release both firing pins. then the cover with firing pins inside must coming back but you cock the main springs again when pushing the cover against the receiver.


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Edited by lancaster (26/11/14 06:45 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #257216 - 26/11/14 08:45 AM

Lancaster:

I will look at that area again. It did not move when I tried several times. It does look like a "button" in the pictures, but I have not been able to get any movement from it. I will try again.

Thanks to all for your input and your help.


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: cwilson]
      #257239 - 27/11/14 05:01 AM

maybe a problem for a gunmaker
do you intend to shoot the double riflein the future?

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #258936 - 11/01/15 02:11 PM

a 0,71" Schlussspiegelpatrone, SN looks like 6702
this is one of the late made - this means after 1870 - special order double guns shooting a real needle fire paper cartridge
dont think the blueing is orignal but none the less its a guns I have an interest for myself.










and a very late hammerless 20 ga
to bad the serial number is not visible but I will try to investigate it
you will see the barrels dont turn to the right side anymore but move forward and break very similar to the Collath guns. this Gun must be made between 1890-93 and 1899 and a lot of things were changed but it still have the Dreyse DNA.












Edited by lancaster (11/01/15 02:30 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #258999 - 13/01/15 12:37 PM

Have pics of a double rifle needle fire for you, Lancaster. Have to wait until next week though, sorry!

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Ash]
      #259000 - 13/01/15 01:51 PM

Quote:

Have pics of a double rifle needle fire for you, Lancaster. Have to wait until next week though, sorry!





Needle fire..?
Can't wait to see this one.

Seen any pinfire double rifles there Ash?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: tinker]
      #259020 - 14/01/15 12:26 PM

No pinfires, sorry Tinker!

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #259248 - 21/01/15 10:29 AM

What a fascinating machine. No less amazing is the number of examples you folks have managed to post. Your forum is very educational! Thanks you!

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Norman4]
      #259358 - 23/01/15 03:29 AM

small size patent action rifle in 11mm - maybe something like the 11mm Reichsrevolver(44 Russian)- action looks to short for 11,15x37R

N.v.Dreyse SN 36067 http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=46424984
probably after the dead of Franz the factory was against named Nicolaus von Dreyse/Sömmerda?

remember 37531 "MUN. & WAFFENFABR SOMMERDA" is after 1899 so this is a very late "Dreyse" named gun, must be close to this date.







































.
.
.


Franz v. Dreyse 12 ga Hammergun http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=464577652
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=464577652

I see it in the early 1990s made probably before and beside of the transformation of the needle fire action into the different hammerless design's
















































obviously the same typ of hammergun like this Büchsflinte vor sale in germany





.
.
.

another needle fire gun have only this pic, SN looks like 14537








Edited by lancaster (23/01/15 06:29 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #259591 - 29/01/15 01:37 AM

look at the pics again and the patent rifle above have a medium size action. the 11,15x37R is very possible and this could be also the cartridge for this beautyful full stock medium size patent rifle I found here http://www.gun-photos.info/gunphotos?photoid=52313&iid=263287&aid=50


SN 24189 caliber 9mm

they have sold once also this double barrel needle fire pistol

http://www.gun-photos.info/gunphotos?photoid=5641&iid=285361&aid=52

SN 147 , caliber 47 ga

special thanks to Elizabeth Hogan
Customer Service Representative| Rock Island Auction Company



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Edited by lancaster (30/01/15 06:53 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #259791 - 01/02/15 03:44 PM

coming back again to the "Baden Customs" patent rifle


because I think again about the SN I have for two of them of the four known to me. this model is rare and allmost nothing is generally know about it. it seems safe this rifle was in use between 18767/1877 and 1910 than sold as surplus to member of the Baden customs. its not a sporting gun but was the first and only rifle with the Dreyse patent action made in greater numbers. serial numbers I have are 13429 and 13457 but its unlikely a gun so rare is made in this numbers. the Baden police had 500 needle fire rifles made by Spangenberg & Sauer and C.G. Hänel and the police was spread over the country so 200 customs needle fire rifles would be a mass. I forget the idea that needle fire revolver are into the SN range of sporting gun but this special patent rifle possible can be in it.
this would meaning the Dreyse SNs actually reach 134xx in 1876-1877

find pics of another Baden customs gun for sale in the united states lately http://www.antiquefirearms.com/pages/402.htm
and there is a pic showing the bolt head

the bolt head is plain without an old style air chamber or a Beck seal. obviously the rifle shooting a special paper cartridge with a "Schlusspiegel" paper wad in the base like the 0,71" Schlusspiegel shotgun cartridge. the cartridge "für Grenzaufsehergewehre" was available in the RMS/Dreyse catalog loaded with bullets and blanks for 5 Mark/100.
100 Dreyse military rifle cartridges cost 4,50 Mark so the additional price was maybe for the more complicated Schlussspiegel base.

.
.
.

when cleaning up my hardware find something more







this looks like SN 6680, no doubt made for the 0,71" Schlussspiegel cartridge easy to see because there are no extractor hooks up and down and no notch on the barrels end for hooks. nice to see were the discs on the breech face going into the chambers. this is called the "old model" gun but in fact the real old model made before 1870 had an air chamber like the military needle rifle to helping burn the paper cartridge and take some of the black powder residues for making the gun funktioning a longer time.

this was the real old model



this is the air chamber


the old model gun fire a self consuming paper cartridge and the air chamber make it more or less gas-tight, many times probably less gas-tight



air chamber on the military rifle


the 0,71" Schlussspiegel cartridge use probably the same barrels like the 0,74" Randschlussspiegel cartridge with only a different chamber. this caliber was similar to 16ga Lancaster CF shotguns most used in germany before the great war and after
.as you can see the "old model" had only plain discs because the Schlussspiegel cartridge must have some kind of thick paper base the so called "Schlussspiegel" pressed against the plain disc and made the barrels end gas-tight when fired. of course it was not burned and must be remove when loading again or shot out with the next cartridge.


this is an interesting gun I dont have a SN
its marked N(Nicolaus)v.Dreyse, the son of Franz having the firm between 1894 and 1899 and made after 1893 as you can see on the U+crown proof mark in the action. its a 0,74" Randschlusspiegel but the gun have common centerfire gun extrators and probably use 0,74" Randschlussspiegel cartridges with center fire shotgun primer something also offered in the Dreyse/RMS ammo list. the SN must be somewhere between 31000 and 37000. the breech end again have discs reaching into the barrels end like a Collath gun to make the action stronger.





another "old model" double gun, it was in the trade between 1891 and 1893 so geting the V/crown proof. the action having an engraving I read something like 0,685" Schlussspiegel cartridge and there is more not clear to see. notice the gun is marked N.Dreyse so made before his nobilitation in 1864. there is "1857" visible - maybe the serial number.














the patch box is something I have seen on a single shot rifle in investigation just now so made original by Dreyse.

.
.
.


"14" ga so probably a 0,71" Schlussspiegel for sale once in 2007 this are the first pics where the original ramrod/cleaning rod is to see





its actually not long enough but maybe there is some extending system

.
.
.

0,70" Randschlussp. SN 12247 for sale in the US
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=465493760










































Edited by lancaster (02/02/15 07:19 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #260639 - 18/02/15 01:25 AM

get the number for this 16 ga/ 11,15x60R combination gun

its SN 30535




http://www.vdb-waffen.de/de/gebrauchtwaf...reyse&o=neu

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #261616 - 04/03/15 03:46 PM

the DR in 11,15x60R Mauser on the modified action we had seen here before is now for sale

UNUSUAL F. V. DREYSE DOUBLE RIFLE WITH CARTRIDGES.

SN 34230. Cal. 11mm Mauser. 25-3/4″ Bbls are gold inlaid “F. V. DREYSE SOMMERDA” on silver wire inlaid bordered area on full length matted rib. One standing, one folding leaf rear sight is dovetailed through rib, as is a silver bead front sight. Bottoms of bbls are stamped with German imperial black powder proofs and SN. Unusual action with in-line coil spring strikers, a holdover from needle fire design, is combined with a long steel forward pivoting underlever similar to that found on Collath guns. Moving lever to the left and back cams bbl set forward away from breech discs, and then pivots them to the right side, at the same time cocking action. Gun automatically closes when lever is returned to forward position. “Cal: 11 mm” is engraved on water table and exposed when action is open. Firing pin housing, trigger plate, and other metal parts are engraved with exceptionally well cut, various sized open shaded scroll. There is more scroll silver wire inlay on rib extension. Both triggers are set. Trigger guard is of horn. Nicely fiddle figured European walnut stock measures 14-1/4″ over engraved steel buttplate with trap, which covers space for three cartridges. Stock has small right hand cheekpiece and point pattern checkering with mullered borders at grip, as well as checkered panels that extend along toe line, and around sling loop matching that on bottom of bbls. Drop at heel: approx 2-3/4″, drop at comb: approx 1-5/8″. Weight: 6 lbs 15 oz. LOP: 14-1/4″. Also included are 35 custom cartridges and 5 empty brass in Winchester Western boxes marked “11 MM Mauser 387 GRS”. CONDITION: Good, as partially refinished. Bbls retain a considerable amount of what appears to be their orig blue, with considerable light frosting and thinning overall. All other metal parts are cleaned to coin finish. Stock retains nearly all of a hand rubbed oil finish over light marks, checkering cleaned up. Bores are very fine, strong rifling throughout, dark in grooves at breech ends. Action works smoothly. Triggers set. Older custom cartridges are slightly tarnished. A really neat lightweight rifle. 4-54053 (3,000-5,000)









http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2353-373/

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #262251 - 15/03/15 01:17 AM

0,70" Randschlussspiegel SN 18367
http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Odd%20Fel...%20Shotgun.html





















a 0,34" Damengewehr(Lady's rifle) faucet breech needle fire cabine http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=471451618 SN 8354
despite the fact it was called Lady's rifle I assume most of this little carbines were bought as a boy gun. the 0,34" cartridge give probably the ballistic of a 9mm Fobert BB cap but was cheaper because of the paper case. remember a metall cartridge case cost up to 50% alone of the cartridge total price.


















having the same four deep grooves the military rifle have, very typical for this gunmaker







Edited by lancaster (15/03/15 04:04 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #262323 - 16/03/15 05:22 AM

this 0,34" lady's rifle have the early SN 2274 so probably made before the war of 1870/71
its for sale here http://www.waffen-beste.de/html/bes__raritaten_.html

interesting detail pics showing how the action works














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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #262602 - 21/03/15 04:01 PM

this 0,34" have the SN 12042
http://www.antique-firearms.de/?id=2&ant=2331&kt=0







old bullet mould for the military cartridge "old model"
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=5383999











called "Langblei"



while I still looking about for informations about the old style Dreyse shotgun paper cartridges here is another needle fire double gun for such ammo
11 bore Speckhaun Needle Fire shotgun
http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Odd%20Fel...%20shotgun..htm




























Edited by lancaster (21/03/15 10:24 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #262905 - 29/03/15 11:32 AM

Quote:

the DR in 11,15x60R Mauser on the modified action we had seen here before is now for sale

UNUSUAL F. V. DREYSE DOUBLE RIFLE WITH CARTRIDGES.

SN 34230. Cal. 11mm Mauser. 25-3/4″ Bbls are gold inlaid “F. V. DREYSE SOMMERDA” on silver wire inlaid bordered area on full length matted rib. One standing, one folding leaf rear sight is dovetailed through rib, as is a silver bead front sight. Bottoms of bbls are stamped with German imperial black powder proofs and SN. Unusual action with in-line coil spring strikers, a holdover from needle fire design, is combined with a long steel forward pivoting underlever similar to that found on Collath guns. Moving lever to the left and back cams bbl set forward away from breech discs, and then pivots them to the right side, at the same time cocking action. Gun automatically closes when lever is returned to forward position. “Cal: 11 mm” is engraved on water table and exposed when action is open. Firing pin housing, trigger plate, and other metal parts are engraved with exceptionally well cut, various sized open shaded scroll. There is more scroll silver wire inlay on rib extension. Both triggers are set. Trigger guard is of horn. Nicely fiddle figured European walnut stock measures 14-1/4″ over engraved steel buttplate with trap, which covers space for three cartridges. Stock has small right hand cheekpiece and point pattern checkering with mullered borders at grip, as well as checkered panels that extend along toe line, and around sling loop matching that on bottom of bbls. Drop at heel: approx 2-3/4″, drop at comb: approx 1-5/8″. Weight: 6 lbs 15 oz. LOP: 14-1/4″. Also included are 35 custom cartridges and 5 empty brass in Winchester Western boxes marked “11 MM Mauser 387 GRS”. CONDITION: Good, as partially refinished. Bbls retain a considerable amount of what appears to be their orig blue, with considerable light frosting and thinning overall. All other metal parts are cleaned to coin finish. Stock retains nearly all of a hand rubbed oil finish over light marks, checkering cleaned up. Bores are very fine, strong rifling throughout, dark in grooves at breech ends. Action works smoothly. Triggers set. Older custom cartridges are slightly tarnished. A really neat lightweight rifle. 4-54053 (3,000-5,000)









http://jamesdjulia.com/item/2353-373/





This rifle sold for $4000 US. Right in line with what wa suggested by Lancaster. Thanks for all your help.


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: cwilson]
      #263047 - 02/04/15 06:19 PM

little correction, the nice 0,34" stutzen on page 3 here have the SN 8066
thanks to mister hartmut burger/http://antiquefirearms.de/?id=vtemp&tl=lang


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #265051 - 17/05/15 03:05 AM

if there is anything more rare than such a Dreyse Jäger rifle
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=5463128










it must be this muzzle loading Jäger Rifle M 1835 build into a needle fire Jäger Rifle U/M
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=5449619














it will end hiiiiiigh!

will make a nice pair with such a Liege made muzzle loading Jäger Rifle rebuild as a breech loader in denmark for the 17x27 Rimfire


if there is anything I realy like its such an old Jäger rifle

typical german target rifle in 8,15x46R build by Dreyse with an medium size patent action
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=5454484, I ask for the serial number and got it SN 28824















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Edited by lancaster (17/05/15 08:44 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #265528 - 26/05/15 03:08 AM

for the archive the needle fire converted muzzle loader Jäger Büchse sold on egun for 3487 euro, not bad
and before I lost it this shows a belgian made dreyse copy build into a civilan hunting rifle





this 11mm/16 ga combination gun was here on page 2 before
http://www.gunsinternational.com/DREYSE-DBL-COMBINATION-RIFLE-SHOTGUN.cfm?gun_id=100475090







anyone in the united states knows this dealer and can ask for the SN?


a 0,70" what the seller here gives as SN
http://www.gunsinternational.com/F-V-Dreyse-16g-with-swing-right-barrels-.cfm?gun_id=100546158











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Edited by lancaster (26/05/15 03:24 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #267099 - 28/06/15 10:38 PM

in the beginning I thought it was possible that needle fire revolver were in the sporting gun serial range but that was not the best idea, another good example that revolver made in masses had own serial numbers is this Franz v. Dreyse M 79 revolver for the civilian market, most likely for private purchase by officer's, with the SN 277














http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=490895632

the Rheinmetall - Dreyse/ Sömmerda pistol carbine M 1907 in 7,65 Br./32 ACP is normally not part o this thread but here is an interesting example I have not other place to safe the pics.

its one of the carbines bought for the police in saxony and it seems sometimes later sporterised by Carl Gründig/ court gunmaker in Dresden/Saxony
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=491664430



















the 32 ACP is not a real power horse but the little carbine saw some use as a hunting carbine. its possiblew to shoot roe deer with 22lr and so the little browning cartridge was able to do the same. its seems it was loved by poacher because of the little noise it was making. there is at least one case I remember where a forester was shoot by a poacher with such a carbine in germany.
this is the original sporting version of this little rifle:











http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=5507797#img

and here in action
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4TIDsiOwJk

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #268269 - 21/07/15 02:30 AM

another double where its not possible to see the SN
must be a 0,74" or a 0,70" with "Rotationsstück" in the right barrel




all I can see is xx688


















http://archives.collectorsfirearms.com/?category=934&page=14&category=&product=as43


a "Traubengewehr" or also called Dreyse Lady's rifle
SN looks like 7667 ?














http://archives.collectorsfirearms.com/?category=905&page=4&category=&product=AL3336

target rifle with the rare Dreyse falling block action, we had only a target pistol SN 29973 here before. this action must be very late and made in the end of the 1880s.



















http://archives.collectorsfirearms.com/?...;product=R14481



find it again
hunting rifle with a Mauser 71 action in 10,5x47R

SN 23797 so made in the early 1880s







this is the patent for our welknown double guns with barrels moving to the right side but with sidelock's given the 30.5.1891 and not renewed five years later. I think we can say double guns with this action are made after 6/1891.









this double gun here is chambered for the 12 ga center fire shell, also the common proof after 1993



a similar 12 ga SN 33290 is her on page 2 and another sidelock 20 ga but with falling barrels like a Collath action is on page 4





Edited by lancaster (21/07/15 03:07 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #268494 - 25/07/15 01:37 AM

another sidelock action 16 ga double gun,SN 33776 with N.v.Dreyse on the barrels
because the highest number with F.v.Dreyse is 34230 this double gun here was probably in the white and not sold before Franz dying in 1894 and his son(again) Nikolaus get the firm
http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/







coming with 9,3,72R/16/65 combination gun barrels marked with Waffen Jung / Stuttgart

seems this SN 34230 is very near to the time of death of Franz in 1994


think I had this double gun before but identified it now as SN 9181 Dreyse in Sömmerda on the barrels
probably 0,74"






http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/

Edited by lancaster (25/07/15 01:50 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #269086 - 09/08/15 02:32 PM

combination gun with hammers and underlever, 9,5 mm and 16ga
N.v.Dreyse SN 36613



http://www.dorotheum.com/auktionen/aukti...erda.html?img=1


another single shot pistol with the small rifle action in 0,34" "Damen Gewehr"
SN 11600



http://www.landshuter-ruestkammer.de/pdfs/2015_Bildteil_1-52.pdf
http://www.landshuter-ruestkammer.de/pdfs/2015_Textteil_1.pdf

not realy a sporting rifle I have to save this because of the SN

this is a Dreyse Project of a military rifle with Dreyse patent action and smooth barrel with "Rotationsstück" in 11,15x60R SN 17017 "F.v.Dreyse"
some small parts coming from a Mauser 71 rifle and this thing was made as an alternative to the Mauser 71 when problems with the Mauser barrel comming to surface.



file:///C:/Users/abc/Desktop/Documents/Hermann%20Historica%20-%20Internationales%20Auktionshaus%20f%C3%BCr%20Antiken,%20Alte%20Waffen,%20Orden%20und%20Ehrenzeichen,%20Historische%20Sammlungsst%C3%BCcke.htm

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Edited by lancaster (09/08/15 03:24 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #269397 - 19/08/15 04:15 AM

what is given as F.v. Dreyse 0,70" with serial number 50730 its probably SN 30730
this is clearly the last version of the old double gun model with common shotshell extractor also for 0,70" needle fire cartridge, the system being made more slimmer and the new trigger's

http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/auktion-70.html







0,34" Damengewehr SN 2152
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=5565986






















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Edited by lancaster (19/08/15 06:57 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #270412 - 12/09/15 03:48 PM

here was clearly a Dreyse stocked by an amateur http://www.lauritz.com/da/auktion/dreyse-25756/i3969500/
looks not good but is important for me because I have a gap between 24xxx and 28xxx in serial number list
SN 25756 , thinks its 0,70"





















if you compare it with the gun SN 30730 you will notice its a transition model having the old triggers

30730, the new trigger's



25756, old style triggers




but also the new slimmer receiver. in fact its now the gun with the lowest SN showing this modification.



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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #270741 - 20/09/15 11:15 PM

combination hammer gun in 16/65 and unknown bullet kaliber F.v.Dreyse SN 33427
given as an shooting award in 1894

http://imgur.com/gallery/ASpIF





















.
.
.

"MAGNIFICENT CASED PAIR OF DREYSE NEEDLEFIRE UNDERLEVER DUELLING PATTERN PISTOLS. SN 21372, 21374. Cal. 9.5mm. Superb pair of matching, nearly new Dreyse needlefire pistols with 7.5″ bbls and an overall length of 14.25″ The front sight is drift adjustable; screw fixation allows the rear sight to be more precisely adjusted. The top of the barrel is marked “F.v. DREYSE SOMMERDA”. A light scroll adorns the receiver behind the sight, the backstrap, the grip cap, the underlever and trigger guard. The bbl and receiver are blued. The other metal parts were generally left in the white, or possibly case hardened, for their tone is a very attractive and uniform grey, that highlights the engraving. In keeping with the high-art profile of these guns, every screw head has been engraved. The screw securing the underlever anchor in the forend is fire blued, as is the flat spring on the right side of the barrel and the lanyard at the base of each grip cap. The extractor, mounted on the left side of the barrel, is strawed. To open the breech, the underlever is disengaged from its retaining station and rotated counter clockwise. This action moves the barrel forward, while keeping the extractor in place, cocks the firing pin, then swings the barrel counterclockwise to expose the chamber. On the metal projection in the forend, now uncovered by the bbl, is marked “Med :Patr/ 9.5mm2/24 Pulv.” Opened in this manner, a matching serial number is evident under the barrel, just beyond the forend, and repeated on the inner surface of the underlever. To remove the color case hardened bolt, one simply needs to depress the checkered spring at its rear and retract, pulling the trigger to free the bolt from the receiver. As expected, wear to this area is negligible. The guns are finished with densely grained walnut stocks, finely checkered in a broad area on each side of the grip. The pair of guns come in a nicely fitted oak case, with a brass handle in the center of the lid, brass fittings, that is secured with a centrally keyed lock. The case is lined with dark green felt and compartmentalized for the pair of pistols, and an equally ornate brass tipped cleaning rod. There are also two smaller lidded compartments. One holds some cleaning cloths, the other a pair of oil droppers. PROVENANCE: Dr. Geoffrey Sturgess Collection. CONDITION: The pair of pistols is truly superb. #21372 has a small pressure dent on the left side of the stock above the trigger and two similar size dents on the right side: one above the trigger, the other near the front of the forend. A few diamonds are missing from the right side of the checkering. #21374 has some minor spotting of the fire blued bbl spring and a few scattered handling dings. Neither gun has any appreciable use-related wear. Bores are mirror-bright with sharp rifling. Comparable condition cleaning rod. The lid of the case has a longitudinal crack that runs near the center but does not affect its utility. A second crack, 4″ long, runs along the back on the right side. The felt is well kept, showing only a few scuffs at the usual pressure points and minimal staining. Overall, a stunning set of early Dreyse, needlefire, underlever pistols. 4-52174 LMA111 (15,000-20,000) "
http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-3181-mag...-pistols-52174/











.
.
.
Baden customs patent rifle SN 13779
https://www.bidsquare.com/l/326/german-dreyse-border-guard-needle-carbine















Edited by lancaster (20/09/15 11:34 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #271050 - 27/09/15 11:50 PM

finaly I got the SN for unique sidelock double gun with breaking barrels similar to collath guns
SN 34831

the lowest SN for a N.v.Dreyse gun so proably made in 1894, complete german proof after 1893 and chambered for the 0,70" Randschluss cartridge but I think common shotgun primer and not for needle primer anymore















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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #271270 - 03/10/15 02:23 PM

very unique brass covered Dreyse double gun http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=5612918
think its very old for dealing with a broken stock not nice but useful

SN looks like 7893 what makes it a pre 1870 gun. very unusual cartridge designation " 16,6mm J.Patr: 16,6mm" - Jagd Patrone = Hunting Cartridge 16,6mm ?
anyway, I think its one of the Randschlussspiegel needle fire cartridges but maybe they thought for a whil to change the inch caliber designations into metric.

































the stock still have the old tip for holding the cleaning rod so its some kind of a transition gun.


same seller have a beautyful 1865 Jäger rifle for sale. this is reason we call it the good old times
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=5612938










































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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (03/10/15 02:34 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #272895 - 08/11/15 11:49 PM

beautiful 0,70" double gun for sale, SN is probably 14552
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=5665436



















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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #273309 - 15/11/15 09:12 PM

http://www.armsbid.com/lot_detail.cfm?lot_id=12843

one of the early bolt action hunting rifles, which cartridge is still unknown but I suspect it shoot the common military paper cartridge. I see it made in the middle of the 1860s.



"Single shot bolt action -rare needle fire sporting action - 27.25" swamped octagon barrel, dovetail blade front, adjustable rear sight - walnut stock - legible markings - pleasing even patina on barrel with small spots of rust that might be carefully cleaned; platinum ring at muzzle. Frame, bolt handle, buttplate, escutcheons, ornate patch box, and trigger guard are all soft gray (silver plate?) with good quality period scroll engraving. Barrel marked 'v. Dreyske. Sommerda.'; right side frame 'Cal. d. Zdsn. 0.60'-5/24 Pulv.' Horn flared nose cap and trigger guard extension. Sound full length stock shows usage marks and sharp checkering; raised relief mock ramrod channel rib on underside of stock. Double set trigger. Working. - - Yr Mfg - NRA fine - SN 2798 - EST 1500-3000 - antq - 17HGPSC068"


http://www.ima-usa.com/original-16-bore-...circa-1870.html

to bad the seller did everything to hide the SN while making such good pics. the center fire extrator and the slimmed action will place it probably in 18883-1885 as earliest time but the additional disc's on the breech end were seen late around 1890.
with the old style needle fire triggers one of the transition guns.
very unusual is the cartridge designation " Pappcart: Cal: 16 " means probably "Pappcarton"(modern german Pappkarton) or in english cardboard so its chambered for the common 16 ga. paper shell.













































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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #275108 - 15/12/15 06:04 AM

in auction last week in italy were it was sold for 1300 euro + its an interesting sporterized M 65 Jägerbüchse
http://www.czernys.com/auctions_lot.php?lotto=653&asta=55&submit=+view
















"categoria: FUCILI MILITARI
provenienza: Germania
datazione: terzo quarto del XIX Sec.

descrizione: Canna ottagonale, rigata marcata alla base "STAHL", matricola "8615" e diversi punzoni, alzo variabile e mirino, cal. 15 mm; l'otturatore marcato "Sömmerda NvD", "B.B. Mod. 65", matricola e data di produzione "1868". Cassa in legno con fornimenti in ottone e ferro. Stecher.

condizioni: molto buone
dimensioni: lunghezza 111.5 cm.

aggiudicato: 1300.00 € (base d'asta 1200.00 €)"

Baden custum rifle SN 14057 http://www.stauffer-auktionen.de/unsere-aktuelle-auktion/schusswaffen.html

0,34" lady's rifle SN 3400 http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=274988&an=0&page=0#Post274988

SN 25728 combination gun http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/11257/lot/174/

"
A Prussian Dreyse Patent D.B. Breech-Loading Needle-Fire 120-Bore Rifle And 18-Bore Shotgun
No. 25728, Circa 1880
With browned sighted barrels with matted side-elevated rib, breeches each with circular 'Ehrharlt Lauf' mark and engraved 'Rhein. Met. V. Masch-Fabr. Abt. Sömmerda Gewehrfabrik.', the barrels pivoting to the right for loading and the action cocked by the engraved under-lever, twist chambers finely engraved with scrollwork, figured half-stock, butt with cheekpiece and carved with foliage on either side of the chequered grip, scroll engraved steel mounts comprising butt-plate and fore-end cap, horn trigger-guard with spur tang pierced with scrolls, set trigger, and sling loops
68.2 cm. barrels [P. 651] "



so it got new combination gun barrels after 1901 when Dreyse was completely absorbed into Rheinmetall/Ehrhardt

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Edited by lancaster (16/12/15 03:40 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #275473 - 22/12/15 09:23 PM

this is a till know realy "unknown" dreyse needle fire stalking rifle model here SN 5617 and made around 1865. it is never described in gun literature and not mentioned in old books anywhere. I know 4 rifles ( two rifles can be seen in the thread) of this typ in 0,60" and 0,49" where the rifle in 0,60" probably shoots the prussian military cartridge.
this excellent pics coming from kudua and showing the action in detail. the rifle is chambered for a paper cartridge with 0,49"(12,81m) Zündspiegel - means the rolled paper sabot. the bullet was maybe in the 11-11,5mm range. the gun came from the estate of Prince Heinrich von Preussen, brother of Kaiser Willy and born in 1862.

here in the middle





.
.
.




























Edited by lancaster (22/12/15 09:57 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #275713 - 28/12/15 02:55 PM

16 ga hammer gun SN 27755 with 1 1/2" rifled chamber insert for the 40 mm long 16 ga bullet cartridge right and lefts side. no doubt had also smooth inserts once but this is lost somewhere.
http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-3160-dreyse-16-gauge-double-combination-rifle-shotgun-53102/

"DREYSE 16 GAUGE DOUBLE COMBINATION RIFLE/SHOTGUN. SN 27755. Cal. 16 ga 1-1/2″ Chambers. 30-1/4″ Steel bbls are marked “F. v. DREYSE” and “SOMMERDA.” as well as “PATENT”, on full length flat rib, fitted with folding U-notch rear sight, and German silver barleycorn front. Bbls are fitted with unusual semi-permanent inserts with short chambers having forward section rifled for approx 2″ with four extremely deep lands (Consignor states “Per Dreyse patent” see also the patent model for this leed rifling design elsewhere in this catalog). Remainder of bbls are smooth. This appears to be a variation on the Paradox system to combine capability of using ball and shot in the same firearm. Inserts have integral ears that project beyond sides of bbls to allow removal and exchange for unrifled shot chambers (not included). Round bodied, forward lever action is fitted with peninsula rebounding back action locks with serpentine hammers. Action and locks are engraved with geometric borders. Both triggers are set. Steel trigger guard has carved horn grip extension. Well-marbled European walnut buttstock measures 14-1/8″ over steel buttplate engraved with SN. Bbls attach to captive forend with pivoting lever at front of forend. Bore diameter: left-.657, right -.658. Bore restrictions: left -.000, right -.000. Wall thickness: left -.042, right -.040. Drop at heel: approx 2-1/4″, drop at comb: approx 1-1/2″. Weight: 7 lbs. 7 oz. LOP: 14-1/8″. PROVENANCE: Collection of Dr. Geoffrey Sturgess. CONDITION: Fine. Bbls retain most of their orig blue, with considerable freckling on left side, thinning overall, with numerous marks and light scratches. There is a slight dent 11″ back from muzzle on side of left bbl. Action and lockplates retain 30 – 40% orig case hardening color with evidence of some cleaning. Stocks retain most of their orig oil finish with numerous marks and scratches, some fairly deep. Bores are excellent. Action is tight. Locks are crisp. Action screw replaced. "











double gun SN 7579 for 0,70" or 0,74", needs some restauration
http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/hello-i-ha....-27903318.html







another hammergun No. 16 SN 28578 but this time with top lever
http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=ht..._D-QQrQMIrgEwLw












double gun with "Rotationstück" right and left SN 27618,the new slimmed down action and disc on the breech face, stock not original!



16 ga needle fire(?) double gun SN 25734 http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/f-v-dreyse-1475894.html











one of the old stalking rifles SN 1256 "500 bore" so probably 0,49" Zündspiegel cartridge
http://www.thomasdelmar.com/Catalogues/AS260607/page14.htm


medium size patent action rifle in 9,5x47R, SN not available










http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www_d...itemnum=8014966

hard to say if this is the 0,38" "kippender Zündnadeltechin" or just for the 11mm needle fire stalking rifle cartridge, SN 9728 so maybe just before 1870
https://eaukce.antiques-auctions.eu/en/a...onen?idimg=9596





















Edited by lancaster (28/12/15 10:16 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #276743 - 18/01/16 11:23 PM

0,70" SN 16550
"Dreyse Sommerda shotgun 20 gauge.
marked: "F. v. DREYSE SOMMERDA"
Gold inlaid street address on top plate to fore-end.
Revealed only when barrels open: "070 Randschlussp".
Self-cocking slide and swing action forward facing side swinging underlever.
Silver and gold inlaid scrolls on barrel breech; engraved fore-end cap, lever, engraved triggerplate; horn triggerguard. Checkered straight one piece stock of slightly figured walnut. Cheekpiece. Sling swivels. Steel buttplate.

Condition: Good as redone. Metal shows silver patina with older light pitting and some spotting. Bores show light pitting.

he action appears to be a modification to center fire of the Dreyse needle-fire action. Barrel dimensions: Bores: 0.662 /0.662 inches. Chokes: 0.00 /0.00 inches (Cylinder). Chambers: 2 inches. Proof: None. Stock Dimensions: Pull: 15 1/4 inches. Weight: 7 pounds, 4 ounces "
http://www.wapenhandelwagemakers.nl/shop/product_info.php/cPath/1_23/products_id/293























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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #277011 - 23/01/16 09:31 PM

another baden customs rifle for sale by Holt's making now 733 guns of this model in the hunting guns serial number's



SN 13324
http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp...429&image=0

got pics from the czech military museum in Prague for a another trial cavalry carbine with the action of the needle fire shotguns. probably we will see hunting rifles with this action in the future.
SN 7908, Cal.d.Zündspiegels 0,57"(a little bit smaller than the military cartridge)







crone+V proof mark?







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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #278647 - 29/02/16 09:12 PM

14 ga double gun so 0,74" SN 17688
with " a single leaf folding rear sight" probably Rotationsstück in one or two barrels



http://jamesdjulia.com/item/386-122/
waiting for the official Hermann Historica online catalog, the flyer http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion72/pdf/flyer/A72_flyer.pdf
showing interesting stuff so a pair of Franz v. Dreyse duelling pistols in the box similar to another needle fire pistol sold in italy 2010






Goergen's Gun Shop was so kind to send me more pics for the combination gun SN 15247
http://www.goergensgunshop.com/index.php?p=1_9






to bad its not readable anymore
I believe this gun was changed later by Dreyse, its having centerfire extractor's that did not start before SN 23xxx and the holes in the action smelling like firing pins instead of needles.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #279553 - 19/03/16 03:01 PM

carbine in 0,57" made as a trials rifle but with the quality of a sporting gun
SN 7184 http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/onlinekatalogeneu.html









duelling pistols in the box, SN 13048 +13056
"Cal. d. Zdsp. 0,44" , property of the "The Earl of Erne Royal Horse Guards".
http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/onlinekatalogeneu.html












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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #279597 - 20/03/16 01:06 PM

You sure have peaked my interest in a needle fire gun.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #279604 - 20/03/16 05:22 PM

This thread has sure peaked my interest in these fine guns.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #281079 - 17/04/16 07:12 PM

another target rifle with Dreyse Falling block action, 8,15x46R SN 34641
helps me again to come closer to the time of death for Franz v. Dreyse in 1894 because 34831 is engraved with Nicolaus v. Dreyse
http://www.cowansauctions.com/auctions/item.aspx?id=84132













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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #281082 - 17/04/16 09:05 PM

Can you explain how that action works? It looks like a Martini from above, but then there is the hinge pin underneath and no sign of a swinging block on the side of the action.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: xausa]
      #281085 - 17/04/16 10:16 PM

Quote:

Can you explain how that action works? It looks like a Martini from above, but then there is the hinge pin underneath and no sign of a swinging block on the side of the action.



May look similar to the Martini from above, but it is a true falling block. The hinge pin is the one of the underlever, which covers the whole underside of the action. The long falling block contains a coil spring + striker lock similar to the Martini lockwork. The underlever moves the breechblock straight up and down. Franz v. Dreyse's DRPatent 735 of 1877, see https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/de...1&xxxfull=1 , but adapted to an underlever about 1890.


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: kuduae]
      #281086 - 17/04/16 10:48 PM

I can only help with this pic



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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #281963 - 06/05/16 01:24 PM

double gun 0,64" Randschluss but rechambered to 20/70, needles probably grind down into firing pins SN 234134 http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=5952109

but ... the stock although looking interesting is again not original anymore. you see on the first view it lacks the quality of a 19. century gentlemans gun especially the checkering. the damascus barrels while looking very thick are maybe not the best thing for shooting smokless loads.





































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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #282737 - 22/05/16 01:18 PM

wayne59 send me pics of his new Dreyse doublegun SN 25550 made in 1885(+/-)














very unusual with the straight "english stock" it have the new slim action and the common center fire extractor.

compare it with the old model here






" Have no idea what the gauge is but a 20ga brass hull will almost slide in and a 24ga hull is to small. "

forget the gauge system completly I think this is a - 0,70" Randschlussspiegel - cartridge, here an unloaded shell



this looks like loaded with a roundball





you will find the cartridge specification here



I will make you pics how to disassemble the gun step by step and post it here. imho, the case can be made by using 20 ga Magtech brass. I am sure you can order lathe turned brass cases with having a chamber cast but it would be hard to make them so thin the drawn magtech cases are. remember the original shell only had a paper body.
my tool maker will made me a special sizing die for this job but he is a little bit overloaded with work so it needs some time. the small muzle loader caps will give the best primer. I deepen the primer pocket a little bit and put the cap upside down in it, than filled with fine gun powder. close the primer pocket with self adhesive aluminium foil whats no problem for the needle.

here for example in a 16 ga paper shell, fits in the bigger 0,74" Randschlussspiegel cartridge







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Edited by lancaster (22/05/16 10:13 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #282754 - 22/05/16 10:58 PM

how to dissamble

the needle is soft soldered into the needle screw and this is screwed into the needle holder




both needle holder are screwed into the lock unit



press the lever and both trigger and take the unit back from the action




on top of the needle holders there have to be a leather disc for seal the needle hole against gas when firing, my gun need them too



loose the screw on the lever



the screw on the tang



the screw in front of the lever and the stock comes off



both screws holding the barrel



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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #282764 - 23/05/16 08:25 AM

Thank you for the help. The gun you have pictured is only approximately 200 guns off from mine. Mine is also marked .070 just like yours. I have lots of questions. When did Dreyse stop making needle fires. My gun is a lot newer than I figured it was. Might explain the condition. The tips on mine appear to be broken or ground. How long should the actual needles and is there an easy way to make new ones if I have to. Do you use the MagTec brass full length. I think I am using 60gr ffg and 3/4oz of 7 1/2 shot in my pin fire gun.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #282771 - 23/05/16 02:00 PM

no, mine is 23673
somewhere between this and your gun Dreyse makes different modification because the old needle fire gun became technical more and more outdated. some were outward like the slim action I have found first in the 24xxx range or the new triggers starting in the 23xxx range and other were inside like the center fire extractor and the final use of the common center fire shotgun cartridge than called Lancaster cartridge.
Dreyse like any gunmaker in history try to hold on the proprietary cartridges so long as possible. the last side-lock gun made in the 1890s for this get cartridges with a special center fire primer.
this special Dreyse shotgun cartridges were available up to WW 1.
notice that there is no real cut in production when new things came so you will still find old style guns along with modified guns.
the highest serial number on a original Dreyse double gun like our I have now points to 1890 but with all all improvments and the action probably for "Randschlussspiegel" cartridges with center fire primer.

look for a good 2.0 mm steel wire, carbon steel of course, and soft solder it into the needle screw. then there is trial and error to get the length!
take the barrel off so you can see the needle come out of the breech face. the correct length must be 12-15 mm but so short the needle are in when the action is cocked.

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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (23/05/16 02:01 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #282798 - 24/05/16 05:27 AM

I will have to order some MagTech brass and some piano wire. Probable have to shelve this project for a while and finish my Kitchen. We all know how this goes. Finnish your work and then you get to play.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #284417 - 24/06/16 06:00 PM

0,34" Dreyse Lady's rifle SN 7946
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=6014006





































this engraving is not made for fun, it shows you the needle have the right length whne you hold it on the end of the action





Edited by lancaster (24/06/16 06:16 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #285320 - 16/07/16 09:25 AM

very interesting double rifle made between 1864 and 1867 , SN 5733 https://www.kunst-waffenkammer.de/newsletter_artikel/seltene-zuendnadeldoppelbuechse/?lang=de




the unloading rod is missing
















muzzles showing the typical view we knowing from military rifles


and the lands/grooves are given with 15,1-15,2mm /16.1-16,2mm so its clear the common military bullet with paper sabot was loaded into the 0,71" Schlussspiegel cartridge



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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #285329 - 16/07/16 11:06 AM

What is the price of the rifle in US dollars or Euro's Maybe even pounds. What ever language that is I cant make anything out of the price.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #285340 - 16/07/16 03:13 PM

+ - 3750USD in your currency

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Gen_Hicks]
      #285383 - 17/07/16 11:47 AM

Thank You.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #285694 - 27/07/16 03:51 AM

beautyfull double gun thats missing the complete needle holder - allways is something
caliber is 16mm what will be a 0,70" Randschlussspiegel
SN 14754 with a "F.v.B. 1875" on the stock what is a broad hint
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=6049708



























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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #285699 - 27/07/16 07:31 AM

Lancaster. I finally got around to dismantling the Dryse this morning and to my surprise it looked like new inside. It was packed full of some sort of grease that looked like the old style of bearing grease and had set up hard. Took about three hours to clean it all out. I was looking at your previous post about reloading and it left me with a few questions. When you turn the percussion cap up side down and insert it in the primer pocket doesn't it cover the flash hole and block the burn to the powder charge. and my second question is, what is the cartridge over all length 70mm?. What are you using for a powder charge. These shells are a little smaller than a standard 20ga so are you using the 20ga over powder and cushion wad. Enquirering minds want to know. Thanks

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #285714 - 27/07/16 12:37 PM

just try it and you will see that the copper percussion cap will be pierced with ease by the needle.this alone will open the way for the flame but be safe and fill the cap with fine black powder.
the action and the cartridge is not gastight but it handle this problem well. dont forget to have a good soft leather sealing gasket in the action.
chamber lenght is a problem for itself and I allways recommand to make a chamber cast. you will find that guns for thin paper cartridges have something like a conical chamber that going into the barrel without a step. stay with the 20 ga. magtech and you are fine.
use paper and felt wads in a diameter you get into your case without problems and fill it with BP and shot in equal shares by volume.



kuduae send me a link to an interesting double gun http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/149/1846502.html

made after the patent of J.F.Timpe from 1884 probably by Emil Barthelmes, Zella-Mehlis for a russian nobelman. the gun have german proofmarks after 1893 and having "N.v.Dreyse Belin" on the barrels.



























SN is 30925 what in a special way fits into the Dreyse Sömmerda serial numbers and do it also not.

Franz von Dreyse was dying in 1894 and the firm was coming to his son Nicolaus von Dreyse. it seems this happen between 34641 - the last gun I have with F.v.Dreyse and 34831 - the first gun with N.v. Dreyse. so the 30925 SN is much to early for the N.v.Dreyse name and I have my doubt that there was an own serial number block for the Dreyse shop in Berlin that only exist for some years in the 1890s.
its very unlikely N.v.Dreyse /Berlin sold in this time 30000 guns and giving them an own serial number. my own guess is the gun was honestly marked as "Dreyse Belin" because it was not build in Sömmerda but in Zella Mehlis ... but for some reason it got a SN that was open in Sömmerda because the original gun never came on the market in this time or the SN was not taken than.
we know that sometimes SN were reserved but this is all guesswork now.

another late 16 ga hammer gun that make no problems http://forum.guns.ru/forum_light_message/112/801988.html

N.v.Dreyse SN 35579

















another late 12 ga double gun with an unknown action N.v.Dreyse SN 36620
had a bad time in WW 2 and after, stock looks like a crude homemade affair
https://reibert.info/threads/gladkostvol-n-v-dreyse-sommerda.452620/





















here are pics of a Dreyse Drilling with the same action
http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20allemande/artisan%20l%20m%20n/a%20von%20dreyse%20gb.htm
to bad there are not more informations about it but Franz von Dreyse is maybe wrong. looks on the pics like three shotgun barrels.






another nice small bore stutzen, to bad without SN
https://www.dorotheum.com/en/auctions/cu...ch=Quick+Search














Edited by lancaster (28/07/16 02:29 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #285966 - 01/08/16 05:07 AM

the hardware of half stock Patent rifle in 11mm caliber, medium size action, SN 16636
http://bron.iweb.pl/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=39915&view=previous






















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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #286071 - 03/08/16 07:51 PM

very interesting double rifle in 11,15x60R again N.v.Dreyse Berlin & Sömmerda
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100720764

hope the seller will give me the serial number for my data list, Kudua give me the idea that Dreyse Berlin -Sömmerda was maybe a semi-indipendent corporation of N.v.Dreyse that ended when he take over the factory in Sömmerda:


"Timpe had a shop at the very prestigious boulevard Unter den Linden 31, central Berlin. Apparently Timpe was near the end of his career in the early 1890s. By 1895 he had amalgamated with Heinrich Leue, Berlin, to Form the Leue & Timpe company. About 1900 H.Leue is mentioned as the owner of the company.

Maybe NvD II and Timpe formed a short- lived partnership of sorts, to capitalize on the famous v.Dreyse name and Timpe's prestigious Berlin address? This certainly Ended when NvD II inherited the Soemmerda factory in 1894."

whatever it be new guns will bring new informations but here is the double - can't remember another double rifle with octagonal to round barrels

































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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #286101 - 04/08/16 08:06 AM

Wow - beautiful wood & its finish is magnificent!
The whole piece overall is incredible if I'm reading this correctly to be over 120 years old?
93x64mm


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: 93x64mm]
      #286113 - 04/08/16 06:23 PM

yes, over 120 years now

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #286671 - 21/08/16 06:36 AM

got the SN of the double rifle its made +/- in 1895

another more common 16 ga Hammergun SN 33453
http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/fv-dreyse-16-gauge-double-shotgun-504299.html





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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #287093 - 28/08/16 02:47 PM

someone build a sizing die to make shells for the 0,70" Randschlussspiegel cartridge from 20 ga plastic, notice the step over the rim http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=6087006



.22 patent rifle with later made threads on the muzzle, suspect for a silencer what was common before WW 1, no proof so before 1893 and SN not found
http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/fv-dreyse-22-cal-single-shot-358395.html
















double gun in auction http://aukro.cz/pruska-brokovnice-dreyse-plne-funkcni-pred-1890-i6415828579.html
caliber given as 20/20 so probably a 0,70", old style locking spring points to the early 1870s

















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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #288482 - 30/09/16 04:15 AM

beautyful Lady's rifle in 0,34", SN 9261
thats what they were looking when new http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=6125288

























































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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #288500 - 30/09/16 11:41 AM

It looks like they might have drilled right through the old primer also. Interesting.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #288590 - 02/10/16 06:04 AM

double rifle, 16mm barrels with 7 grooves, SN 27672
property of prince von salm http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/aktuelle-auktion-2.html





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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #288596 - 02/10/16 06:46 AM

short 15mm needle fire carbine SN 7382 http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/aktuelle-auktion-2.html





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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #289182 - 18/10/16 05:48 AM

Early single shot Dreyse's .......

Barrel and System forged and made in one piece:



Interesting action:


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #289629 - 31/10/16 06:33 AM

needle fire "lady's rifle" in 0,34" , SN 12887
http://www.gunstar.co.uk/dreyse-needlefire-carbine-with-octagonal-barrel-single-shot-/rifles/833746







target pistol with patent rifle action, chamber is maybe for the 5,6x33R dreyse
"signed in silver “F. KOERNER SIEGEN”"
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100762730





















two very similar pistols
SN 33976
http://www.horstheld.com/0-Dreyse-target.html





















he identify the cartridge as Brand No.16 whats the 5,7x33 Dreyse rimless so it may be this one



another one SN 32917





Edited by lancaster (31/10/16 06:52 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #292720 - 28/12/16 07:45 PM

0,34" SN 6762 http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=6249003













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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #296080 - 02/03/17 07:58 AM

Dreyse sidelock 16 ga double gun SN 31393
http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/side-by-side-shotgun.168696/#post-1537593













sold by W. Tornau in Halle an der Saale

a modified needle fire gun made after 1883 I was not able to get the serial number now

http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/f-v-dreyse-sommerda-know-anything.165619/#post-1502089




very old v. Dreyse single shot gun SN 2082(suposeably)
http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/dresye-sommerda-shotgun.166556/















unusual break action seems to shoot a paper cartridge in the design of the military round

12ga sidelock, nitro proof, SN 32352
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=467851&page=2











very unusual 0,70 randschlusssp. double gun with two barrel sets
26 1/4" combination gun barrels with V rear sight and 28 3/4" double gun barrels
Franz von Dreyse http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/threads/german-shotgun-side-break.134599/#post-1206574







it comes clear now what this long iron forearm tip is, just a cover to come easier to the screw that hold the barrels in the action

and finaly more pics of the unknown Dreyse drilling action









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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #296256 - 04/03/17 04:58 PM

more pics for SN 31393











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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #296754 - 11/03/17 02:59 AM

sometimes new possibility's just around the corner, find a gentleman living just 20 km from me. because he is a paper collector only our way's dont meet before but now its just in time.
he send me some prussian paper's and the first thing I see were two patent's for Nicolaus von Dreyse (the second ) given to him on the 3rd of july 1896




-61730 hammerless self cocking Drilling with three trigger's

-61731 hammerless self cocking doublegun

I had two Drilling's here, one clearly N.v.Dreyse, with 3 trigger





and no doubt this is the unknown double gun





N.v.Dreyse SN 36620 so made in 1896
another model is identified, probabyl only made between 1896 and 1900 it must be rare

and the gentleman have a book project about the Teschner - Collath gunmaker family nearly finished too

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #297058 - 15/03/17 12:49 AM

double gun 0,70" Randschlusss. SN 21458
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=6376243













gun was restored but the antique brown is imho wrong

have problems to fill the years between 1897 and 1901 when the guns where marked "Waffen&Munitionsfabrik Soemmerda". so far only three guns were found with this name so ask myself what they do all the time than.
probably only in 1900 the Mannlicher pistol model 1900 was made with the patent from mister Mannlicher beside of the other production in steyr.
like usual in Soemmerda special pistol models got own serial numbers starting with 1

SN 58




http://www.hermann-historica.de/de/mannl...g=1&slide=2

SN 144 is in much better shape







http://www.hungariae.com/Mann00.htm

SN 215 blued and the name is in gold




http://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/51/1758

SN 217 was given as a present to the turkish sultan in 1903


















the box made by H&C SCHULTZE / DUSSELDORF
Düsseldorf is also the head office of rheinmetall so this box and the pistol from Soemmerda were maybe an order from the boss.


this pistol is now engraved on the grip with "RHEINISCHE METALLWARREN U./ MASCHINEN FABRIK ABTEILUNG SOMMERDA/ EHRHARDT WERKE"
the official name after 30.1.1901 but maybe in 1903 tis pistol was out of production and this one was on stock in the white. "Model 1903" was pure fantasy to give the sultan the impression this was a brand new thing. we know that SN 215 have the old name dated it back to the year 1900 so its unlikly number 217 was made 3 years later. was in contakt with Mister Mötz from austria about it and he means it could be the model was made for some time after 1901 with the old name for different reasons. will take a look also on this problem and time will tell.



"This is an exceptionally rare, early production 1900 Mannlicher semi-automatic presentation pistol that has been lavishly factory deep relief chisel engraved and fitted with a beautiful set of walnut grips that have been adorned with various ivory inlays. The pistol itself also carries a factory inscription or presentation which experts attribute to the Sultan of Turkey. This pistol, various accessories and tools are all housed in a hand tooled, gold guilded and dyed, leather bound display case. The 1900 Mannlicher pistol itself is a very early design that was very unique for the time in that it was blow-back operated which fired the 7.65mm Mannlicher automatic cartridge, (similar to the 7.63 Mauser cartridge). The interesting aspect of the pistol is that it uses an internal magazine that is loaded from the top, via stripper clips, which are positioned in the clip guides located on top of the slide, and it has a two-piece barrel. At the time of its development, this pistol was considered very innovative, as well as strong and reliable; it fired a high velocity cartridge, making this a highly desirable and sought after weapon for any country. The pistol, as noted, has been engraved on over 95% of the metal surface, with the only area not engraved being the front grip strap, which carries the inscription and the barrel rib itself. The engraving is an early deep relief, Germanic style that has been executed in a vine and floral pattern with the punch dot background. It is fitted with a set of standard walnut grips that have been inlayed with genuine ivory in very nicely detailed vine and floral pattern that compliments the metal engraving of the pistol. In the center section of each grip panel there is a 1 1/2 inch by 1 inch oval ivory panel, inlayed into the grip which has been beautifully carved with a large sun-burst pattern in the background, over a set of cross-flags that depict the Cross and Crescent symbol of the Ottoman Empire or Sultan of Turkey. Surrounding the flags on both sides are various implements of war, which include, swords, pistols, cannons, lances and pikes etc. etc. The factory inscription is in three lines and reads: "RHEINISCHE METALLWARREN U./ MASCHINEN FABRIK ABTEILUNG SOMMERDA/ EHRHARDT WERKE" A loose translation is "Metalware and Machine Fabricating Department, at Sommerda works, from Ehrhardt". A brief history or connection of this inscription to the pistol and to the company is in order. Heinrich Ehrhardt was a young engineer who in 1889 accepted a subcontract from the large German manufacturing firm of Hörder Bergwerks- und Hüttenverein (HBH), a major ammunition contract for the Imperial German Army. After completion of this contract he developed several new patents and also designed a new rapid firing cannon which he later sold to Norway and eventually Germany. With the proceeds from these contracts and with the help of several venture capitalists in 1891 he formed the new company of Rheinische Metallwaaren- und Maschinenfabrik, near Erfurt. In 1901 he acquired the old Munitions-und Waffenfabrik AG of "Sömmerda" in Thuringia, previously known as Dreyse'sche Gewehrfabrik, a manufacturer of handguns, and cartridges. From this small start he was able to develop several unique patents on metal fabricating techniques which he developed into the Rheinmetall Works, one of the largest German metal working companies in Europe. Based on what the inscription says and the time frame for this pistol, this describer theorizes that this pistol was probably a gift or presentation to the Sultan of Turkey, for a military contract that may have used some of the raw material from this company or actually for small arms fabricated at the Sommerda works, probably in the 1901-1905 time frame. As you recall, the Imperial German government and the Turkish Empire were very close allies during this time and sold thousands of rifles, pistols, cannons and various war material to each other. As noted, the pistol and various accessories are all housed in a beautifully leather bound French fitted case that has been overlaid with several panels of almost a damascene leather pattern on all four sides as well as the lid. The center section of the lid has a raised, hand carved, leather coat of arms that looks like a double flag hanging on each side with a turban on top, with a crescent moon in the center. There is no name, markings or inscription on the coat of arms. The bottom front of the case is marked in gold "H&C SCHULTZE / DUSSELDORF". Inside the case are five compartments one for the pistol, screwdriver, cleaning rod, silver oiler bottle and small pin punch (which is missing). The lining is a light blue felt with the following three-line, Gold Letter inscription on the inside of the lid; "EHRHARDT WERKE/ ABTEILING SOMMERDA GEWEHRFABRIK/ SYSTEM MANNLICHER 1903". The barrel and lower frame have a rust blued finish, with the remainder of the frame and slide having a casehardened factory finish. The trigger, extractor and safety lever were all gold plated at one time. It has matching numbers on the various parts with the side of the slide having a small double "Crown over U" proofmark. Certainly this has to be one of the Crown Jewels of this auction that needs to be researched further. "

http://www.icollector.com/Magnificent-Su...h-Del_i11028142


the Mannlicher in the Alfa catalog, the cartridge showing the Soemmerda headstamp




https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/m-w-soemmerda/22884/8


Edited by lancaster (15/03/17 07:30 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #298215 - 31/03/17 10:06 PM

in the next hermann historica auction
pistol" Cal: d Zdsp: 0,44" SN 11399, "F. v. Dreyse Sömmerda"
http://www.hermann-historica.de/de/zuend...mp;currentpos=7







pistol ""Caliber 0,34 / 6 gran Pulver", SN 2118, build with the Lady's rifle action
http://www.hermann-historica.de/de/hinte...g=1&slide=0








very obscure revolver for the 0,34" needle fire cartridge, SN 523
http://www.hermann-historica.de/de/zuend...g=1&slide=4













F.v.Dreyse engraved 16 ga double gun what will be a 0,70" cartridge , SN 4595
http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp...5&saletype=



very old but beated hard, looks realy like SN 66 or 99 "Cal.d.Schlussp. 0,65" 5 1/2 /24 gramm powder
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=6405190

















never say never with old guns, a 0,70" double gun, SN 10266 with the old style ramrod pipes not necessary anymore for this model















Edited by lancaster (02/04/17 07:43 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #298771 - 09/04/17 06:00 AM

nice double gun, SN looks like 26201 http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100825076

"Dreyse Needlefire System Side Opening Needle Fire Shotgun. The bores measure to 18 Gauge a 16 Gauge shell will not fit to the chamber. This one is circa 1862 or so. The action functions well with a lefecheaux style lever that moves the barrels forward and then to the side for loading. The action is fully engraved with open vine European style engraving, double triggers, horn grip. The barrels are 32" when measured from the back of the chamber, steel, clean bores with light pitting ahead of the chamber. The stock is in very good shape with a cheek piece, nice chequering"














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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #299064 - 15/04/17 06:10 AM

http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100829943
SN 3380
seller was given the caliber as " Schlusssp. 075" " whats a problem because the gun is clearly for "Randschlusssp." cartridge but with this early SN its possible the gun was updated for the new cartridge in the factorry.

















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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #299644 - 26/04/17 05:17 AM

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail...on-rifle#detail
patent rifle for an unknown 11mm cartridge, SN 19947












"These Dreyse sporting rifles are descended from the earliest bolt action rifles designed by Johann Nikolaus von Dreyse (1787-1867) around 1836 and are among the first modern bolt action sporting rifles. This very fine example has beautiful floral and scroll engraving with gold and silver inlaid accents including "F. V. DREYSE SOMMERDA" on top of the barrel and "PATENT" on the receiver ring in gold. The former indicates it was manufactured under Franz von Dreyse (1822 -1894), the son of the needle gun inventor. The barrel also has a blade front sight and adjustable notch rear sight, and the rifle is equipped with double set triggers. The matching serial number is on the left side of the barrel and on the underside of the bolt handle, and the barrel, receiver, and bolt all have "crown/V" proofmarks. The stock has a horn forend cap, sling swivels, leafy scroll carving intermixed with animal designs accented with glass eyes, a horn grip extension with scroll pattern at the tail end, cheek rest, and an engraved steel shotgun style buttplate.
"

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #300219 - 08/05/17 03:56 AM

I have never seen before- an F.Dreyse falling block needle gun, i think before 1864 ( after this Franz was "von" and signed with "F.v. Dreyse")
even if it is patented, never seen the patent.....:









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www.jagdwaffensammler.de

Edited by chapmen (08/05/17 04:01 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #300248 - 09/05/17 05:11 AM

very,very nice, no doubt made before 1864

do you have the SN and the caliber? is it yours now? never see a falling block like this before but with dreyse everything is possible.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #300253 - 09/05/17 07:02 AM

not mine- hopefully not yet.
No SN, no stamp or mark on the whole rifle.



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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: chapmen]
      #300315 - 11/05/17 02:16 AM

no SN ,is very unusual
have sen this only on some early prototype guns

very interesting engraving, I read Cal.d.Gesch: 0,49" Cal:d.Zdsp: 0,49" Länge d.Zdsp: 0,50"
Länge d. Patr. 1,73"

bullet and sabot diameter 12,81mm
sabot length 13mm
cartridge length 45,2mm

only the powder load is hard to read! can you give a better picture?

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #301814 - 16/06/17 04:46 AM

0,64" Randschlusss. cartridge, double gun with rifled chamber insert for the right barrel but as usual the shotgun chamber insert is rustet in, SN 17685 http://www.naturabuy.fr/fusil-Dreyse-Sommerda-1890-canon-damas-aiguilles-item-3901942.html











thanks to louis

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #302451 - 28/06/17 05:12 AM

it never become boring with dreyse guns, here a needle fire stalking rilfe with a scaled down military action never seen before, SN 14483



















bolt missing all internal parts, will probably help to bring it backi to work


a "12 ga" double gun, v. Dreyse with SN 5893 its made between 1864 and 1865 and chambered for a "Randschlussspiegel" cartridge

http://www.aiolfi.com/vente/vente-milita...es-type-dreyse/









will compare the pics with other guns but it looks like a 0,74"

Edited by lancaster (30/06/17 03:51 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #302579 - 01/07/17 04:54 AM

0,70", hate it when they hide the SN
http://www.onlinehuntingauctions.com/Ger...overa_i27184500























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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #303002 - 13/07/17 02:16 AM

16 ga hammergun, SN 23578
http://www.lauritz.com/da/auktion/f-v-dreyse-underlukker-haneboesse/i4708253/#



















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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #303193 - 23/07/17 03:40 AM

Patent rifle in 11x52R , SN 25208
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=6550800






























































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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #305479 - 18/09/17 03:25 AM

no name but some points make me think it could be a Dreyse, SN 1932
8 mm caliber is probably the ladys rifle cartridge
















http://www.lauritz.com/da/auktion/taendnaalspistol/i4779493/

early Dreyse & Collenbusch pistol for split cartridges with 0,40" sabot and 0,42 "roundball (getheilte Patronen Caliber der Zündspiegel 0.40 Caliber der Kugel 0.42)
SN 326













http://www.lauritz.com/da/auktion/taendnaalspistol-av-dreyse/i4779918/#





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Edited by lancaster (18/09/17 04:05 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #305583 - 21/09/17 04:08 AM

small size patent rifle probably for a .22 caliber centerfire cartridge
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100912147



















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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #305730 - 26/09/17 05:20 AM

very early N.Dreyse for the 0,71" Schlusspiegel cartridge
http://forum.ihunter.ru/topic/7987/?view=getnextunread























0,70" SN 12181 http://retrobazar.com/militarija/ID_4077/photo/






























same gun http://popgun.ru/viewtopic.php?f=156&t=311919





















the oldest hammer gun by the SN I found till now : SN 16377
http://www.medwed-hunt.ru/MedwedPosts.aspx?pid=176477&p=1

sure its a 16 ga, "rotationsstück" in both barrels

































Edited by lancaster (26/09/17 05:39 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #305731 - 26/09/17 05:32 AM

Lancaster. I just finished making a die to size down 20ga plastic hulls for my 70. I have components ordered and am waiting on them. I am thinking 55gr Bp and 3/4oz shot. What do you think. Is this to heavy a charge.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #305733 - 26/09/17 05:58 AM

hello

original load must have been between a 20/65 and a 16/65 blackpowder load but more close to a 16 ga BP load so this seems light and safe to me for a start

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #305736 - 26/09/17 11:28 AM

Thanks.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #306068 - 07/10/17 06:52 AM

16 ga hammer gun SN 28578
http://www.icollector.com/SxS-Hammer-Shotgun-by-F-V-Dreyse-Germany_i23666056















"16 ga" needle fire so probably a 0,70", SN 27641
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/lot/a...67-6fc53e804c56







Edited by lancaster (07/10/17 07:35 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #306075 - 07/10/17 10:09 AM

Lancaster. I fired the first test round in my Dryse a couple of days ago. The only problem I had with the reloading was that the 20ga wads were just a little large for the sized cases so I just ran the loaded rounds back through the sizing die and they worked perfectly. I was also able to use a standard 209 primer with no modifications to the gun. Worked fine. I loaded up 25 rounds and will have to take it squirrel hunting.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #306104 - 08/10/17 05:40 AM

so its a center fire now? whats your load? powder and shot
would be nice to see some pics of the process

good luck with the gun

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #306107 - 08/10/17 07:22 AM

The gun hasn't been converted. the firing pins just happen to be rusted off at the proper length to work as a center fire. The first loads are loaded with 55gr Bp and 3/4oz of no 8 shot. I use an over powder wad a 1/2in thick 20ga cushion wad and an over shot wad glued in with a hot glue gun. Used once fired cases trimmed to get rid of the crimp. The firing pins look a little long but their not puncturing the primers. It will be interesting to see if the gun actually has any kind of a pattern. That will have to wait until after the storm.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #306128 - 09/10/17 03:24 AM

without SN a 0,70" double gun,
rear sight so probably "Rotationsstück" in the right barrel
http://popgun.ru/viewtopic.php?f=156&p=17721308&t=544040









one of the mysterious bolt actions from the early 1860s here as a light carbine, 9 mm kaliber and 1060 mm long



http://otpad.h10.ru/oruzhie/028.html

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #306211 - 11/10/17 05:27 AM

in the upcoming Hermann Historica gun auction:
"small bore needle fire rifle" by Stiebritz in Dresden ...
https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/zuen...mp;currentpos=2

without a doubt a F.v.Dreyse made "Lady's rifle" in 0,34" for this dealer in Dresden and the SN 9338 looks right also



to compare it with a real copy by an external company a 9,5mm break action needle rifle by Schmidt&Habermann in Suhl
https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/zuen...mp;currentpos=3






0,70" double gun with some parts mixed, maybe a repair
SN 15258 and also SN 29404 but the gun looks like 15258
https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/zuen...mp;currentpos=1





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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #306215 - 11/10/17 06:27 AM

Well the needle fire drew blood this morning. I wonder when the last time it was fired at game. A clean kill on a gray squirrel at 35yds. One shot one squirrel.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #306251 - 12/10/17 01:50 AM

waidmannsheil
would be nice if you can made a pic witht gun and the squirrel

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #306255 - 12/10/17 05:18 AM

Sorry but I didn't think to take a pic of the squirrel.

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #307293 - 05/11/17 11:49 PM

0,34" SN 7063
https://www.walterborg.se/sv/auktion/auktion/v17/antika-licensfria/4245_1#&gid=1&pid=1



0,34" , SN 7465

https://www.walterborg.se/sv/auktion/auktion/v17/antika-licensfria/4361_3



a Sauer& Sohn copy 8mm , could be the 0,34"

https://www.walterborg.se/sv/auktion/auktion/h13/antika-licensfria/2353_3






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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #307728 - 14/11/17 07:10 AM

very nice late dreyse double gun in 0,74" but build for the last version of this cartridge with center fire primer, SN 29259
































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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #309522 - 27/12/17 06:58 AM

single shot falling block pistol 9 mm claliber so very likely 9,5x47R like the pistol 6 digits before
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=244637&page=0&fpart=3&vc=1
not for sale but they were helpful to give me the SN 29979
crown +V proof



http://rwnaf.org/collections/display?type=collection_items&id=506

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #309619 - 29/12/17 07:23 AM

Dreyse hammer drilling 16 ga + 8mm rimmed, again a model I have not seen before
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100943396














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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #311529 - 02/02/18 09:34 PM

patent action single shot pistol in 5,7x33 ,SN 33950
https://www.antiquefirearms.com/pages/232.htm
only with retailer name " Eduard Kettner/Köln"



































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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #312624 - 19/02/18 05:18 AM

SN 3316 v.Dreyse Sömmerda, an older 0,71" in excellent shape and complete!
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=6845335





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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (19/02/18 05:36 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #313982 - 15/03/18 12:38 AM

16 ga hammergun by Franz v. Dreyse SN 21804
https://forum-antikvariat.ru/index.php/topic/191603-ruzhe-dreyse-sommerda/















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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #314287 - 21/03/18 08:44 PM

Dreyse become never boring

Robert Schrader Double Rifle Drilling made by Mun. Waffenfabr. Sommerda A. G. vorm. v Dreyse
SN 38338 https://jamesdjulia.com/item/51872-62-397/

"SN 38338 (on forend iron). Cal. 8x57R/8x57R/16 ga. 25-1/4″ Bbl group is fitted with full length matted rib holding one standing leaf rear and silver bead front sights, and is also fitted with claw bases. Tops of bbls are engraved “Mun. Waffenfabr. Sommerda A. G.” and “vorm. v Dreyse”. Bbl flats are stamped with 5/30 German nitro proofs for 8×57 and 16 ga. A sling loop is soldered to bottom bbl. Unusual Blitz type action has rifle/ shotgun selector on top tang, and is equipped with Robert Schrader’s unique patented safety action with “trigger” shaped operating lever in trigger guard bow. Pushing “trigger” forward opens action while pulling it to the rear cocks action. Releasing pressure on this “trigger” allows it to go back to its orig condition of being uncocked, thus assuring absolute safety, as action is only ready to fire when under spring tension. Both “triggers” are set. Action is engraved with full coverage well cut Germanic acanthus scroll surrounding game scenes on sides; stag and two hinds on left, and roebuck and doe, and a duck, on right. Top of action with more acanthus is engraved “D. R. P.” “100914”. Steel trigger guard bow is also engraved. Tang is of horn. Nicely marbled European walnut horn capped round knob pistol grip buttstock measures 13-7/8″ over checkered horn buttplate, and features right hand cheekpiece and point pattern checkering at grip. Matching splinter forend with schnabeled horn tip has Deeley release."










to bad the WMF Sömmerda catalog is missing some pages but under rifles there is a single shot with this action



Schrader 16 ga Double gun by Mun. Waffenfabr. Sommerda A. G. vorm. v Dreyse
SN 37769
https://www.flickr.com/photos/46845109@N06/16077470954/in/photostream/
http://www.germanguns.com/upload/showthread.php?1147-MUN-amp-WAFFENFABR-16-Bore/page2























the grip cap of the double gun is like the one on side lock double rifle, page 6









--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (21/03/18 09:25 PM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #315562 - 23/04/18 03:26 AM

revolver in 0,34" , SN 523
https://www.hermann-historica.de/en/pist...a_1860/l/152252









miss the auction
a 11,2x37R stalking rilfe sold by Springers


http://auctions.springer-vienna.com/ru/e...i_ab_18/l/12391

this looks like an early pistol for the 0,34" , dealer description is suspect
"4mm; 20% blue, fair bore, good grips, 7'' barrel, This is a single shot bolt action needle fire caseless-cartridge pistol, with an octagonal. Barrell The metal has wear and patina overall. The stock has checkered panels on the handel, and handling marks - dings. A very rare pistol., s/n 46"

SN number looks to me like 1746












patent action in 22 lr, SN 34600
N.v. Dreyse / Sömmerda
https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/l/17...mpaign=barnebys









--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (23/04/18 04:05 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #315902 - 01/05/18 09:35 PM

F.v.Dreyse double gun in 064" Randschlusssp., SN 14733
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/767794931





















































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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #316079 - 04/05/18 08:04 PM

another but more basic single shot pistol in 5,7x33, SN 31708
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/769083349















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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #316439 - 16/05/18 08:55 PM

target pistol for the 0,34", SN 7163
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/770008665




























Mannlicher 1900 made in the former Dreyse factory for his Majesty
https://www.morphyauctions.com/jamesdjulia/item/1291-369/

"7.65 Mannlicher. Exceptionally rare M1901 Mannlicher, factory engraved with walnut grips inlaid with ivory. The pistol has a 5-1/2″ bbl with a fixed front and rear sight. SN is repeated on left side of the bbl, chamber and on the floorplate forward of the serrations. Crown/Crown U proofing appears just over the SNs and on the left side of the slide. The front strap is marked “RHEINISCHE METALLWAAREN U. / MASCHINEN-FABRIK, ABTEILUNG SOEMMERDA. / EHRHARDT WERKE.”, translating “Rhenish Metalware and Machine Factory, Sommerda Division, Ehrhardt Works”. Virtually the entire surface has been engraved with a deeply chiseled vine and floral pattern. The bbl and frame are blued while the slide and sideplate are etched grey. Several smaller components including extractor, thumb safety and trigger are gold plated. The grips have ivory inlays that encircle 1-1/4″ x 1″ oval ivory escutcheons,, probably bone, finely engraved with the Imperial Hohenzollern crest. Pistol is presented in an embossed and gilded leather marquetry case whose lid has a raised Hohenzollern crest surrounded by a multicolored, Arabic inspired design that is repeated around the base. Retracting two pins from the base releases the lid to view the interior, which is lined with grey baize. Marked in gold inside the lid is “EHRHARDT WERKE / ABTEILUNG SOMMERDA, GEWEHRFABRIK / SYSTEM MANNLICHER 1903.” The base is compartmentalized for the pistol, oiler, a stripper clip (missing), screwdriver and cleaning rod whose handles have been engraved in a complementary pattern. Very few of these pistols are known. Two similar examples were purportedly gifts or presentations to the Sultan of Turkey; this example reflects presentation to Kaiser Wilhelm, circa 1903. At this time the Mannlicher pistol was involved in competitive trials with the German Army against the Luger and Mauser C96 pistols and this pistol may represent an attempt to curry favour at the highest level, the “1903” nomenclature also presenting it as the very latest development when presented. Accompanying paperwork includes capture papers from James F. Buie dated Oct. 13, 1945 specifying this exact pistol. Another letter from 1957, also from James F. Buie, mentions he had obtained the gun in a munitions factory from a military person claiming to be the nephew of Kaiser Wilhelm, further supporting the historic association. PROVENANCE: Ex Visser collection. Capture Papers. Collection of Dr. Geoffrey Sturgess. "



























pair of target pistols
"Matched pair of Rhein Metall, breech-loading target pistols. These magnificent, exhibition-grade pistols are gold inlaid and relief engraved with European walnut forearms and fluted grips. The pistols have adjustable target rear sights and single set triggers. The fluted barrels are blued with relief-engraved floral and cross-hatched designs on a stippled background. Intricate, gold, filigree designs are inlaid on the muzzles, breeches, sides and tops of the barrels. The top of each barrel is gold inlaid with the maker's name and address: "RHEIN.METALLW. U.MASCH. FABR.ABT. SOMMERDA GEWEHRFABRIK." on an oval panel with gold inlaid borders. The breech, side plate, hammer and backstrap have deep, relief-engraved, scrollwork panels with gold inlaid borders. The trigger guard and breech lever are blued with relief engraving and gold inlaid filigree. The screws and barrel wedge escutcheons feature fine engraving. The pistols are complete with a European walnut, French-fitted, velvet lined case and accessories. The case is lined with green velvet and contains: (1) a pewter oil bottle, (2) screwdriver with ebony handle and engraved steel blade, (3) engraved steel socket with ebony handle and (4) twenty-eight round, silver-plated bullet block with engraved borders. A cleaning rod that was originally part of the set is missing. This magnificent set of exhibition grade pistols represents the finest turn-of-the-century German gun-making and engraving skill. This is a one-of-a-kind set of pistols that displays unmatched craftsmanship and detail."
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/49/1205/rheinmetall--target














--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (17/05/18 12:32 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #316474 - 17/05/18 08:17 AM

Wow! - Very nice

Thanks for posting Lancaster

TH44


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: TH44]
      #316567 - 20/05/18 05:10 AM

6mm Flobert Stutzen, SN 33179
http://www.hunting-heritage.com/blog/index.php/2018/04/18/toy-for-a-boy-dreyse-tesching-from-1894/





















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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #316888 - 28/05/18 11:47 PM

4mm rimfire, so called "Zimmerstutzen" for indoor shooting, SN 37225
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=6983492





















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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #317314 - 16/06/18 04:52 AM

looks like a 0,70" double gun, SN 23633
https://www.bukowskis.com/sv/auctions/F171/392-tandnalsgevar













an old model
http://www.probusauktioner.se/auktion/ob...%20april%202012








hate it when they hide the SN








0,34" Lady's rifle, SN 15491
https://www.europeana.eu/portal/sv/record/2064105/Museu_ProvidedCHO_Livrustkammaren_47089.html



0,70" double gun, SN 25790
http://www.beaussant-lefevre.com/html/fi...mp;aff=1&r=







--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (17/06/18 12:23 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #317417 - 22/06/18 01:58 AM

target rifle in 8,15x46R with patent action, SN 28824

http://de.bisgaardnielsen.dk/shop/460-rifler-og-gevaerer/9658-schuumltzengewehr---dreyse-sommerda/













--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (22/06/18 02:18 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #317642 - 30/06/18 09:02 PM

0,71", F.v.Dreyse
https://www.veilinghuisaag.com/cata/productlist/id/145














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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (02/07/18 03:11 AM)


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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #317693 - 03/07/18 05:13 AM

for the last double gun SN 5992

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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #318163 - 17/07/18 05:01 AM

0,64" double gun by Franz, SN 14733
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/771501101







































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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #318952 - 10/08/18 02:59 AM

22 lr single shot pistol "5,7mm", SN 34024
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=7063580









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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #319041 - 13/08/18 01:34 PM

needle fire single shot target pistol, SN 4850
"11,5 mm caliber" Dreyse Sömmerda
https://www.czernys.com/a-85/?o=77515&am...mpaign=barnebys









0,34" "Lady's rifle" made as a Stutzen
SN 3464
http://www.antiq.com/bolk-antiques-142/a...00-euro-1324761












0,34" "Lady's rifle"
SN 7124
https://www.bidspotter.eu/en-us/auction-...44-a6bb010b17ae




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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #319043 - 13/08/18 01:47 PM

This is one of my favorite threads here on the site.

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--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: tinker]
      #319052 - 14/08/18 01:35 AM

its only my storage, working about this problem for a projekt

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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93x64mm
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #319056 - 14/08/18 06:21 AM

Keep up the good work Lancaster, certainly been a labour of love for you - all the best with your project!
Yes I like to have a peep here & there on this one too Tinker; it's fascinating how firearms have progressed over the ages.


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Ash
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: 93x64mm]
      #319073 - 14/08/18 08:41 PM

Lancaster - we don’t say it enough but we all appreciate and love your threads full of the unusual and different firearms. Keep it up, please.

Cheers,
Troy.

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.


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Ash]
      #319076 - 15/08/18 03:18 AM

it was many years ago now when I realize that many interesting pics of unusual guns get lost when the auction ended

such threads especially about real rare guns becoming full of informations over the time if you take a look on all the facts you collect.
I remember the first time when I had a needle fire double gun in my hands. the owner had two questions - if I was abel to make ammo for this AND when was it made. first problem was possible and second was then impossible to say. with the information I got from old books and the complete stuff here in this thread I am able now to tell which year such a needle fire gun was made.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #320181 - 29/09/18 05:56 PM

a typical Dreyse stalking rifle with patent action in 11,15x42R Werndl, SN 19998
http://www.panzer.cz/cs/kulovnice/2263-kulovnice-f-dreyse-1115-x-42-r-werndl.html


































#


one of the early 0,49" stalking rifles, SN 8310

















Edited by lancaster (29/09/18 07:14 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #320545 - 11/10/18 05:18 AM

0,34" SN 6947
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=7151939





















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Ash
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #320634 - 14/10/18 06:10 PM

Is it just me or does a needlefire look simple to make?

Any sporter Chassepot or Carcano needle guns?

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.


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Ash]
      #320643 - 15/10/18 05:39 AM

in the 19. century it was space age technology

you are advanced not only knowing that there was a chassepot but also the italian carcano needlefire rifle. btw ,another rifle but from the same Carcano who invent the italian bolt action rifle 20 years later.
the carcano was only an interim solution to get a new breech loader from the old muzzle loaders like the snider rifle in britain. italian and france had than a pur shotgun hunting culture with shooting the rare big game only with buckshot. there are some civil made chassepot hunting cartridges showing the rifle was used for hunting in france than but the rifle itself was not "sporterized" like some chassepot in germany.

I got a fine work yesterday, my job is it to make a Dreyse needle fire hunting rifle working again were are all part of the bolt are lost. unknown design till now the only one exist we can only guess.
It shoot's a .50 caliber bullet with a gas tight paper cartridge than.


military rifle
my chassepot project
the poor Dreyse stalking rilfe




notice how similar the action is to the bigger military rifle





the bolt was some kind of a missing link to the Dreyse Patent rifle than still in production









the needle fire rifle













made 5 years later for center fire cartridges, different bolt

















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (15/10/18 05:55 AM)


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Ash
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #320646 - 15/10/18 10:11 AM

I hope you can figure out and make your missing one work again.

How do they attach the locking lug, or is it just milled as one piece with the bolt?

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #320798 - 20/10/18 05:18 AM

0,74" double gun, SN 20075
https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/l/17...mp;currentpos=1





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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