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lancaster
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Dreyse Double
      #244637 - 30/03/14 08:09 AM

so I got the Nikolaus Dreyse ( nobilitation in 1864 than von Dreyse)Zündnadel fusilier rifle and a Franz von Dreyse( his son after 1867) needle fire double gun too.
you would say "stop" whats with the double gun here in the combination guns forum?
so lets take a look











caliber is 0,70"( prussian inch not imperial) Randschlußpatrone, maybe translatet as rim-end cartridge and meaning a needle fire paper cartridge with a massive breech end





this is an original cartridge







F(ranz).v. Dreyse Sömmerda















dont look like a shotgun foresight





have a rear sight too





whats this on the right barrel?

this double gun is or better was a combination gun with an interchangeable chamber. it was a combination gun because the rifled chamber is lost and the shotgun chamber is fix now because of corrosion. I am sure if it was possible to get the chamber piece out the last owner would have done this.



here you can see the chamber piece in the right barrel





the "rotation piece" makes an upside down paradox gun by giving a bullet a sharp spin in the beginning. the rifling diameter fits the shotgun barrel diameter and the roundball bullet is flying like a common rifle bullet than.










the big disatvantage of the dreyse gun is that have to loose five screws to get the barrel out of it.



very typical for dreyse guns is a hunting dog or a fox in silver on the gun




have laying around a 0,74" Dreyse double gun waiting for a new stock and restoration for many years now.
the 0,74" chamber takes 16 ga brass and shells without modification. they have a loose fit but with black powder loads I see no problem to shoot it. the Dreyse/RMS 1904(?) catalog have needle fire shotgun cartridge from 0,59" to 0,74" but I have only seen 0,70" and 0,74" guns till now. a hunter here have a 0,74" Dreyse gun that take 14 ga brass. have made ammo for him years ago when 14 ga greener police gun brass was available by OWS. I believe this gun was rechambered when the original ammo became obsolet but 14 ga shot shell are obsolete now also.



here with the double gun you see the common shotgun foresight





uncocking the needles, its easy to uncock and cock both with the thump in a moment




by pressing the trigger you can take the complete needle/spring unit out



the Dreyse guns together













side by side with the Dreyse rifle, diameter is very similar with 16,5 groove diameter for the rifle and 16,6mm for the shotgun barrels




20 ga magtech brass and plastic/paper shells dont realy fit into the chamber but the rim is not bad




rim dia. of the chamber is 19,45mm to 19,27mm Magtech brass, than 18,3mm to 17,8mm over 6mm - thats where the "Randschlußspiegel" is in the chamber
chamber going down than to 16,85mm and over the next 60mm down the 16,4mm
20 ga magtech brass is 17,56mm on the base and 17,18 o the neck. with a resizing die and anealed brass it would be easy to press it down. glue a big muzzle loader primer or a berdan primer inside on the ballon head primer pocket and reloading can start













here you see how the hooks holding the cartriges when the barrels going forward and to the right side. show it with 16 ga shells in the 0,74" double gun action

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:49 PM)


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tinker
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #244641 - 30/03/14 09:25 AM

It makes me happy to see this!






Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: tinker]
      #244669 - 30/03/14 08:31 PM

you are right about it, dreyse guns make you happy

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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Matabele
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #244686 - 31/03/14 05:13 AM

Awesome.

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Matabele]
      #244744 - 01/04/14 06:23 AM

so wait till I let the cat out of the bag one day how to make reloadable brass for the needle fire rifles.

in my brain its ready and working flawless to bad I am 150 years to late for the military rifle.
would have been a big success than also for converting the french chassepot rifle. to bad I am allways to late with my bright ideas

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245149 - 06/04/14 10:28 PM

why not making this the Franz von Dreyse double gun thread

here is an interesting center fire version for sale in switzerland
http://www.waffenbuergin.ch/w157o/gebrau...-wn-21144-.html
gun number 21144 ( my gun is 23673) steal barrels and action( you see this guns were build complete in steel or damascus steel) in 24 ga. left and 11mm shot right with a 11mm rotation piece insert








the dog on the underlever again






I will send the gunmaker a mail if the barrel insert is in 11,2x60R

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:52 PM)


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tinker
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245151 - 06/04/14 10:36 PM

Lust.

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245153 - 06/04/14 10:49 PM

this is again for sale as a center fire modification now in 16 ga it startet probably as a 0,70" randschlußpatrone, gun number looks like 17382
I will ask the seller for more informations
http://www.antique-firearms.de/?id=2&ant=2120&kt=0

interesting is the cased underlever! it seems only the smoothbore chamber is now with the gun also you can see the hook on the exchangeable right chamber





















.
.
.


I have got an answer now about the serial number. hartmut burger was so kind to inform me that this 070" double gun have the serial number 17334

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:53 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245154 - 06/04/14 11:27 PM

we had it before http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=120822&an=0&page=5

the standing rear sight show this one was build as a double rifle with the possibility to make a combination gun or a double gun when necessary
gun number 15269




F. v. Dreyse. 18 mm calibre, no. 15269. Fixed rear sight and nickel-silver front sight. Mirror-like bores without rifling. The bullet spin is brought about by the rifling within the chambers. Barrel surfaces lightly reworked and newly finished. Lever action which swings barrels to the right for loading. The company name on barrel inlaid with silver "F. v. Dreyse". Locks with fine silver wire inlay. Iron furniture with ornamental and flower engraving. Selected walnut stock with fine chequering, a little chip on the left side has been professionally restored. Horn trigger guard. Length 115 cm.
The principle of rifled chambers was meant to protect the barrels from wear and soiling, did, however, not gain acceptance. Cf. Hermann Historica, 52nd auction, lot 1332. Length 115 cm.
With two rotating chambers of utmost rarity. "

sold at Hermann Historica München

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:54 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245155 - 06/04/14 11:41 PM

this was a more basic double gun for sale on egun some times ago
0,70" Randschlußpatrone, the egun in steal and more basic, serial number not clear to see

























--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:55 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245156 - 07/04/14 12:13 AM

a 0,70" Randschluß damascus steel double gun
serial number not identifiable













--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:55 PM)


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rigbymauser
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245159 - 07/04/14 12:45 AM

Thanks for sharing Lancaster.

I Always get educated in your postings.

Mit freundlischen Grüsse...


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Igorrock
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: rigbymauser]
      #245162 - 07/04/14 01:13 AM

lancaster, what you mean as "steal" ? (=klauen auf deutsch)

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Igorrock]
      #245169 - 07/04/14 02:54 AM

Quote:

lancaster, what you mean as "steal" ? (=klauen auf deutsch)




of course "klauen"

Edit(h) was here



its time to start a little research about this lovely early double guns

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (07/04/14 02:56 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245193 - 07/04/14 04:26 PM

because we have no facts about the production of the Dreyse double I can only try to find some key data

the original needle fire double gun was developt by Franz Dreyse in 1856 and was more or less like this:








it was very close to the military needle fire rifle and shoot a pure paper cartridge, the illustration found in Zimmer " Die Jagd Feuer Gewehre" 1877 showing a break down action with the well known underlever. this 1877 edition was the second and Zimmer describe this as the old model not in production anymore so I think it was the the state of the art in 1869 when the first edition came out.

this gun number 7506 looking like this first model in some points. the barrels turn to the right side but the breech have two bolts which grib into the barrels end and close it
what I can read there is Cal. Randschlussspiegelpatr. 0,71" in te action what gives a new mystery. why not 0,70" and why are there no ectractor hooks? probably we have an early transition gun around 1870 but the 0,71" cartridge designation is also on another dreyse gun so I think there must have been another cartridge standing between the old paper cartridge and the Schlussspiegelpatrone.















the following illustrations show the "new" model but only with the cartridge ejector hooks on the underside of the action in 1876. the hooks on the action to grip the rim from above also are described as a new invention in the text.



this will probably date guns with the upper hooks made after 1874/75






I dont know when dreyse start to make this gun for Lancaster shotgun and centerfire rifle´cartridges also. the 24ga/11mm gun numer 21144 is not wide from my own needle fire project in 074" with number 21111 so its clear Dreyse make needle and center fire guns like they had orders

this 1891 illustration showing the upper grad model for center fire cartridges but it was not the last. many years ago I had a beautyfull 16 ga in my hands that was for sale by a dealer from denmark.
very long barrels maybe 80 cm and a nice fox in silver on the action but the barrels break again and did not turn to the side. never see such gun again it must have been on of the last made before 1994 when Franz von Dreyse died.


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:56 PM)


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tinker
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245194 - 07/04/14 05:45 PM

Such neat guns!


Want!


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: tinker]
      #245213 - 08/04/14 05:19 AM

I will look into the Hermann Historica auction catalogs in the next day for more dreyse guns. this rifle here was sold in 2012




http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/auktion-65.html

N. Dreyse in Sömmerda made in 1860/61. cal. 12,5 mm, serial number. 334. barrel 60,5 cm long and made for prussian navy officer as a gift.
what we see is a beautyfull stutzen not a double but only one rifled barrel made as a break action in the general lines of the dreyse double gun ZIMMER describe as the "old " modell. giving as a gift in the beginning of 1861 it was probably made in 1860. the dreyse hunting gun was developt by Franz Dreyse in 1856 so I would think its the hunting gun number 334 made since 1856 AND ALL dreyse hunting guns are in one group of serial numbers








also a very early double gun with the number 2488 for the 0,64" randschlusspatrone and without the hooks on the action.




sold by HH in 2012 http://www.hermann-historica.de/db2_de/auktion-64.html

there was the 0,59", the 0,64", the 0,70" and the 0,74" and we can say that this is more or less a 28, 24, 20 and 16ga. and so we can also say that at least with gun number 2488 Dreyse make the gun for the randschlusspatrone. when we see that hunting gun number 334 was made in 1860 this are more or less 100 hunting guns a year and when thinking this was common Dreyse was close to number 2000 when the french - german war came in 1870. the dreyse factory was very busy to make military rifles in this decade so hunting guns were secondary. sometimes between 1969 and 1871 there must have been the change from the old to new model.
so whats now with the gun number 7506


Zimmer write in his book 1876 that Dreyse was still making the old model on special order. ok, its not realy the old model because its not the break action anymore but it looks like make for a paper cartridge. so this was maybe one of the special order guns.



Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:57 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245233 - 08/04/14 03:57 PM

a double gun in "18mm" probably 074" sold by Hermann Historica in 2008
with the upper cartridge ectractor hooks but the old style lock release lever



the underlever is cased with horn something rare but also in combination with a lower grade steel made gun here if we think that the damascus steel made guns were allways higher grades and more expensive.

as a "16mm" this is probably a 070"
beautyful damascus steel and the inlay work in gold and not in the common silver, the serial number 8871 also in gold





sold by HH in 2009

a "17,5mm" ? maybe a 0,74" serial number 3815





sold by HH in 2009



Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:58 PM)


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tinker
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245257 - 09/04/14 04:34 AM

8871 looks fantastic!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: tinker]
      #245288 - 09/04/14 03:51 PM

yes, fantastic damascus steel

with number 3815 we come near to the point when dreyse start to set the upper hooks on the action. that happen what I believe around 1874/75 also the number 2488 goes into the direction when the factory starts production of the new model for the Randschlusspatrone cartridge. I hope we will find some days guns near each other showing this turning points.

mister bürgin from switzerland was so kind to inform me that this gun shots an true 11mm bullet with a 49mm long cylindrical case.






http://www.waffenbuergin.ch/w157o/gebrau...-wn-21144-.html

I believe its a version of the 410mm/36ga brass case that was used in different lengths in germany as the "Lancaster Kugel" or LK meaning Lancaster bullet cartridge because center fire shotgun cases were Lancaster cases. this gun have also two smooth barrels shooting the bullet with the Rotationsstück seeing on pic no. 2 above.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:59 PM)


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tinker
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245289 - 09/04/14 05:01 PM

I'd like to see bullets from those moulds.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: tinker]
      #245323 - 09/04/14 11:03 PM

I think this are very common round nose lead bullets

Georg Koch in his book " Die Jagdgewéhre der Gegenwart" - the hunting rifles of the present age /1891
shows this hollow point bullet for the Randschlusspatrone

btw, Koch was the son in law of Franz von Dreyse

he write the hollow point is for making this big bullet lighter for giving it a better trajectory. because of the increased recoil and the sharp rifling necessary in the short "Rotationsstück" it was not possible to load more powder than 10:1 meaning 1 gramm blackpowder for 10 gramm bullet weight.
but remeber this:


this was common in this time, look at the 24 ga combination gun shooting the 21,9gramm with 2,5 gramm
blackpowder.they never shoot more than 80 meter on game, there was allways a Schweißhund and hunting was the to follow and find the game.



this is a 0,70" bullet cartridge sold in an auction here for 167 euro - they are very rare
case lenght is given as 35mm


http://www.munitionsauktion.de/browse.php?cat_id=1

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 08:59 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245331 - 09/04/14 11:47 PM

double gun number 18367 for sale in the united states
a 0,70" marked gun probably changed for 16 ga paper shells and center fire primer










never see a bird on the underlever before, allmost ever a dog or sometimes a fox













http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Odd%20Fel...%20Shotgun.html

also there a high grade combination gun, the chamber probably fix again
the inlay must be in gold and silver( the black lines)and fantastic damascus steel
caliber is given as "16 ga" so a 0,70" or a 0,74"
number 16012















http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/Shotguns/...%20Shotgun.html

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:00 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245333 - 09/04/14 11:53 PM

What an interesting thread.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #245356 - 10/04/14 02:14 AM

btw, its also new for me a pistol exactly build like the double guns here
Rare F. Dreyse Needle Fire Double Barrel Pistol
Estimate: $1500 - 2500
Rifled barrels with a dovetail blade front sight and a single leaf rear in the smooth rib dovetail. Floral engraving / silver wire inlay on the action, under lever and trigger guard with a warrior holding a spear and shield. Double triggers, ornate pistol grip with blued steel cap, on the one piece extra fancy English walnut stock.
BBL: 8 1/4 octagon Gauge: 47 Finish: blue Grips: walnut Serial Number: 147
Condition: Fine as period refurbished with 98% blue on all the metal. Some pitting on the right side of the barrels. Light handling marks on the period revarnished stock with very fine detail on the raised relief carving. Mechanically fine.


http://www.icollector.com/Rare-F-Dreyse-Needle-Fire-Double-Barrel-Pistol_i10495025

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (21/04/14 09:01 PM)


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