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HuviusModerator
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Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates
      #229708 - 05/05/13 04:33 AM

Pictures of a very special Gibbs 303 sent to me by another member of NitroExpress.
I have to admit, this one really makes my heart flutter!
The following is the owner's message to me with some information on the gun:

Huvius,
You are very fortunate to have aquired such a lovely rifle,I also have a Gibbs Farquharson which is almost identical to it,but without the wrist positioned sight,which I think was fitted to some later rifles than mine,my use number is 845,with a serial number 17330,which I think puts it at around 1890,the Gibbs records having been destroyed by "enemy action" I have no way of knowing exactly what the DoM was. As you observe,the case lable is unusual,mine has the Corn Street address,but is completely different to yours,my rear sight base also "overhangs" the barrel by a lot,implying that it was originally of larger caliber,the sight also has engraved upon it "Powder 37 Grs Cannonite & Bullet 200Grs" , I have searched charts and books to find just what caliber used this charge ,but so far without success,it is in .303 British now,which has the same cartridge head size as the .375 X 2 1/2", but I do not think that cartridge dates back that far,mine is also fitted with "Selous Plates" which seem to be quite useable even in 45Degs C heat!







Just LOOK at those plates and the timed screws!




--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by CptCurl (07/05/13 08:35 PM)

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kamilaroi
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Huvius]
      #229715 - 05/05/13 09:06 AM

Peerless work!

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SharpsNitro
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: kamilaroi]
      #229718 - 05/05/13 11:14 AM

Beautiful rifle! Isn't it a little unusual to have the load information engraved on the sight like that? What are the barrel markings, what date was it rebarrel end to 303? (Initially I didn't read all the text, I was about to ask why they would do the Selous reinforcement for a 303)

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Rockdoc
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #229719 - 05/05/13 11:19 AM

What a beauty. The fit and style is amazing.

Thank you for posting. Cheers, Chris

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tinker
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Rockdoc]
      #229722 - 05/05/13 12:43 PM

Wow

That is very nice!








Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Matabele
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: tinker]
      #229729 - 05/05/13 06:21 PM

Exquisite, what a find! I've always wondered though how comfortable those steel plates would have been to hold after a day in the fierce African sun...I assume from your last comment you have experienced this and found it not to be a problem?

Edited by Matabele (05/05/13 06:24 PM)

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bonanza
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Huvius]
      #229766 - 06/05/13 10:59 AM

What are Selous Plates?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

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500Nitro
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: bonanza]
      #229768 - 06/05/13 11:04 AM


The black plates screwed all along the wrist.

Selous repaired (I think) a stock on one
of his guns with some brass plates.

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Iowa_303s
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: bonanza]
      #229769 - 06/05/13 11:12 AM

Bonanza,
Selous plates are the steel you can see screwed to the right and left sides of the stock. They are used to reinforce the stock at it's weakest point, the wrist.
Traditionally they are found on heavy caliber rifles used for hunting large/dangerous game in locales that do not have a gunsmith nearby to fix a broken stock.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #229803 - 07/05/13 08:36 PM

That's an incredible rifle. It can have a home in Virginia if it is being mistreated.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: CptCurl]
      #229828 - 08/05/13 08:46 PM

God, that is marvellous

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Even
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #229852 - 09/05/13 08:31 AM

What an old beauty! The fitting is amazing.

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Englishman
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Even]
      #231148 - 13/06/13 09:31 PM


Beautiful rifle! Isn't it a little unusual to have the load information engraved on the sight like that? What are the barrel markings, what date was it rebarrel end to 303? (Initially I didn't read all the text, I was about to ask why they would do the Selous reinforcement for a 303).
Sharps-Nitro,
The Selous Plates are not to strenghen the wrist of the stock under recoil,they were to reinforce the weakest part of the stock in the event of a heavy impact (such as a fall from a horse as this was the means of transport then) they were originally made from fresh Elephant ear leather,this shrunk into place,giving the user some protection from breakage when weeks from the help of a gunsmith.
Chris.

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gungadoug
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Englishman]
      #232338 - 11/07/13 10:47 AM

Ah! As a wearer of a full beard, I can foresee the dreaded pop top syndrome, with a vengeance! BTW, I wonder what the straps in the lid of the case are for?
Nice!! Doug

Edited by gungadoug (11/07/13 10:50 AM)

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gungadoug
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: gungadoug]
      #232339 - 11/07/13 11:00 AM

BTW, guys, you have to understand, and I have this on the best authority, that those plates were not actually fit by someone with infinite skill, but were grown there! In the day they had the knowledge to grow steel on wood, and access to the self timing screws. Lost arts, I guess.
Doug

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DarylS
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: gungadoug]
      #232344 - 11/07/13 01:33 PM

Huvius, I know what you mean, when you said "really makes my heart flutter".

I could very easily finish off my hunting days, with only that rifle!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Caprivi
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: DarylS]
      #232346 - 11/07/13 01:43 PM

+1 Daryl

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God

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Rule303
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Caprivi]
      #232371 - 12/07/13 10:55 AM

Truley an exquiset rifle. Love to use it let alone own it.

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Claydog
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Rule303]
      #232375 - 12/07/13 12:54 PM

I agree, doesn't come much better.

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prairie_ghost
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Claydog]
      #232377 - 12/07/13 01:43 PM

These plates are really beautifully formed. Would they have been formed with an English wheel or some other method? Does anyone know for sure?

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HuviusModerator
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: prairie_ghost]
      #232381 - 12/07/13 03:06 PM

I think they were hammered over a buck, the screws timed,and then the plates and screws filed to final form on the rifle. Very possible that they were smoothed out on a small English wheel though too.
Now, how they filed the plates to mate so well with the action and tangs eludes me. Must have been a matter of file - fit, file a little more - fit, file some more...
I would really like to see measurements of the known Gibbs rifles with Selous plates. There is a distinct possibility that the plates were stamped out and then the stocks shaped to fit. I say this simply because all of the Selous plates on Gibbs rifles I have seen have very consistent form and dimensions.
Also, I would like to see a Gibbs with the plates removed. That would tell us a lot.

As for the straps in the case...
I joked that since this rifle was made at the same time as the "Scramble for Africa" it would have been advantageous for an adventurer to have the national flags of Germany, Great Britain and France all stowed away just in case the borders changed or the party inadvertently crossed over to another country's territory while out on safari!
Actually, I am at a loss as to what they are really for.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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doubleriflejack
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: prairie_ghost]
      #232817 - 23/07/13 05:41 AM

"These plates are really beautifully formed. Would they have been formed with an English wheel or some other method? Does anyone know for sure?"
___________
They were often installed by gun workers in India, who, I am sure, didn't have access to sophisticated tools, such as an English wheel. They did have access to a good means of heating steel in a forge like thing, to good old fashioned hammers and anvil, with rounded steel anvil sections, and a lot of sweat and labor, along with skill earned from long term working on such things.

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Englishman
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #233825 - 09/08/13 04:49 AM

With reference to the "Selous" plates on my G,Gibbs rifle,I have not yet had the nerve to remove the plates,but as can be seen from the photo's they have been re blued in recent times,and the screws polished,I am sure that they would come off again in the interest of science,I am sure that ,as has been mentioned,there must have been some sort of simple press tool to roughly form up the plates,if this plate were made from thick enough steel,there would have been some chance of filing up the plates to final contour this would still be a very skilled job,but as the extra cost of Selous plates was only £3 there was not much profit in it,remember that they did not have the easy fix of glass bedding and such things in 1887!
Huvius, I like your idea of the flags of convenience being tucked into the lid of the case,I suppose you could also tuck your pyjamas in there,ready for any event! The stock,and plates do have the customs stamps of a couple of African countries,these were struck on at entry to an African country for tax purposes,(it would make me feel a bit sick ,seeing a hairy customs man with a large hammer approaching my Gibbs with evil intent).
Chris.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Englishman]
      #233872 - 09/08/13 08:01 PM

3 quid !!!!!!! God knows what they would cost today IF anyone would be able to ? Which is an interesting thought, I and a friend own a Hartman and Weiss Hagn .375 H&H. I wonder if anyone can fit plates like that anymore ? best, Mike, p.s. here´s a pic

http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp...2&saletype=

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Nordmann
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #233878 - 09/08/13 10:10 PM

Mike_Bailey...that H&W is a fabulous looking gun, you have exceptional taste! Best James

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Nordmann]
      #233906 - 10/08/13 04:46 AM

Thanks Nordmann, apart from my Model 12 ?! Just kidding, I used to have a nice Bosis Michaelangelo but financial considerations meant I had to let it go. The model 12 was owned by Mike McIntosh, the american gun writer, and his father before him so it has a special place in my heart ! My pair of Hollands will be on auction on the 22nd Sept at Holts if you want a look, best, Mike

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Nordmann
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #233910 - 10/08/13 05:51 AM

Mike ..Was only playing wiv ya on the Model 21, I trust you realized that. Not sure Otto at H&W would be so fond of all those "unlinedup" screws either, can u imagine? They would drive him crazy!

Couldn't find your Hollands at Holts, only a triplet set which didn't really look as though they matched.

Are you into German guns? Was contacted today by my good friend and custom knife maker Juergen Steinau today, he has access to a small collection of guns in Germany which belonged to Erich Mielke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Mielke

Not much for me there, mostly Merkel Suhl, Sauer etc, thought you might know the guys collecting that stuff , bit "off my piste" I'm afraid.

If you send me your mail I will send you the mail I received from him, and you can give me your feedback. Might be something interesting.

James

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Nordmann]
      #233935 - 10/08/13 10:14 AM

p.s. Nordmann, it is a model 12 pump, not a 21 (which I loath) best, Mike

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Rockdoc
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #233942 - 10/08/13 01:15 PM

Quote:

Thanks Nordmann, apart from my Model 12 ?! Just kidding, I used to have a nice Bosis Michaelangelo but financial considerations meant I had to let it go. The model 12 was owned by Mike McIntosh, the american gun writer, and his father before him so it has a special place in my heart ! My pair of Hollands will be on auction on the 22nd Sept at Holts if you want a look, best, Mike



Your 375FL and 500 Mike? Please say no!


Best wishes, Chris

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Rockdoc]
      #233947 - 10/08/13 05:34 PM

RockDoc, unfortunately so. I am unemployed as of 30th June this year, the company I worked for have managed to lose all my savings and to top that off I had a stroke 6 weeks ago in London So needs must when the Devil drives, best, Mike

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Rockdoc
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #233962 - 10/08/13 11:33 PM

Mike I am so very sorry to hear that.

I hope you are well and no long term effects.

Best wishes,

Chris

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Rockdoc]
      #233964 - 10/08/13 11:52 PM

Thanks RockDoc, best

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Glenn_Fewless
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #236092 - 26/09/13 04:18 PM

Gentlemen:

I am delighted to see quality images of Selous side plates. On my "I'm gonna do that some day" list is to build a Farquharson with Selous side plates, and I have been looking for someone who actually has one who would take the kind of images needed to duplicate the plates.

For instance, where do the plates transition from being flush with the action, as they are at the tang, to being proud of the wood as they are at the rear?

They are also flush at the grip cap, but become proud further back on the stock.

How thick are the plates? That is something that is very difficult to get an idea of from the images.

If whoever owns this wonderful piece has more images of it, particularly detail images of the plates, I would be most grateful to see them.


Most respectfully,

Glenn Fewless

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HuviusModerator
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates *DELETED* [Re: Glenn_Fewless]
      #236103 - 26/09/13 10:41 PM

Post deleted by Huvius

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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HuviusModerator
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Huvius]
      #236133 - 27/09/13 10:54 AM

Here is one more picture I have.
Looks like the plates could be flush all around. Yes...I do want this rifle...



--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by CptCurl (29/09/13 09:27 PM)

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Glenn_Fewless
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Huvius]
      #236156 - 27/09/13 03:30 PM

Mr. Huvius:

Thank you very much for the picture and the information. I am off for the wilds of Kentucky in a few hours, but will follow your suggestions when I return early next week.

Very best regards,

Glenn

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Glenn_Fewless]
      #236226 - 29/09/13 09:31 PM

That is just amazing work. I would love to have an opportunity to handle it in person. Trouble is, I wouldn't want to give it back.

Huvius, have you handled this rifle?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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HuviusModerator
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: CptCurl]
      #236233 - 30/09/13 03:02 AM

Quote:

That is just amazing work. I would love to have an opportunity to handle it in person. Trouble is, I wouldn't want to give it back.

Huvius, have you handled this rifle?

Curl




Unfortunately, no.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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HuviusModerator
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Nordmann]
      #301501 - 07/06/17 03:46 PM

I was able to take a look at my Gibbs Selous plates today and see that that are much thinner than I expected.
I didn't have a caliper with me but I think they are somewhere about .020" - .030" if that much.

I think these will be reproducible now that I see them although countersinking screws into something so thin is tricky.












--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by CptCurl (26/07/17 09:45 AM)

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MikeRowe
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Huvius]
      #301507 - 07/06/17 10:12 PM

That would be a lot of tricky work, for sure.
As far as countersinking the screw holes, I have made a dimpling die to form most of the countersink
when making thin iron mounts for muzzleloaders. Such a tool leaves much more material around the screw head. The countersink is then cleaned up a little with a countersink cutter. I don't know if distortion would be a problem with the large rounded plates, or not.
The tool I use is very similar to one used for the installation of flush rivets in aircraft skins.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: MikeRowe]
      #301549 - 08/06/17 09:27 PM

How would you form the metal plate to a precise fit over the wood?

Huvius, can you tell if there is checkering under the plates? Corrolary question: were these done in the original build or retrofit?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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HuviusModerator
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: CptCurl]
      #301551 - 08/06/17 11:13 PM

I cannot see if there is checkering or not underneath.
My supposition is, in either case of an original fitment or as a repair, that there wouldn't be as the wood would need to be taken down some to make the plates fit flush.
In fact, using plates that are the same thickness as existing checkering would make fitting easier IMO.
The best way I can think of to insure a consistent and even removal of wood surface for the plates is to checker to a known depth and then knock down the peaks using the cuts as a depth guide.
I really want to take them off to get a good look but am scared to do it!

--------------------
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Wayne59
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Huvius]
      #301559 - 09/06/17 05:37 AM

Just my opinion but I would not remove those plates. You would be tempting fate.

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93x64mm
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Wayne59]
      #301561 - 09/06/17 06:03 AM

Someone here is a very lucky boy!
What a beautiful piece of workmanship this is!
Unusual load to be written on the rear sight, certainly has me intrigued; could it be a special load created just for that rifle?
Impossible now to tell once all the records are destroyed.
Certainly a keeper that one.

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DarylS
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Wayne59]
      #301562 - 09/06/17 06:07 AM

I find the screw-slot clocking to be interesting, along with the screws showing definite evidence of being removed at one point or another.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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HuviusModerator
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: DarylS]
      #301565 - 09/06/17 06:45 AM

And here we find ourselves at the other end of the plate reinforcement spectrum...



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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by CptCurl (26/07/17 09:46 AM)

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Englishman
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Huvius]
      #303308 - 25/07/17 11:37 PM

Hello Group,
I own the G,Gibbs Farquharson in the first photo in this post, I can say that the workmanship on this fitting is extraordinary, even looking at the inletting with a loup there is no sign of gaps or chisel slips, as you can see from the photo the plates are let in flush all around, the "timed" screws have all been fitted, the plates blued, then the screws re fitted in correct order with polished heads, not a single slot has a burr or any damage, as you can see from the photo the two sides meet perfectly at the front of the pistol grip, and around the grip trap.
One other point that has often intrigued me was if these metal plates become uncomfortably hot in warm weather, as I would expect them to, last week I took the rifle out in 40 deg (C)temperatures, and although the rifle was exposed to the full sun the grips never became to hot to shoulder and fire, I can only assume that as the metal is very thin, (.040") the heat was dissipated into the wood of the stock.
The Selous plates cost an extra £2 when the rifle was new in 1887 !
If there are any other questions about this rifle I would be only too glad to answer.

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Levallois
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Englishman]
      #304219 - 19/08/17 08:55 AM

Absolutely beautiful Gibbs Farquharson!!

Not as elegant as the Selous plates but another form of strengthening, this on an H&H Field patent.



Edited by Levallois (19/08/17 02:00 PM)

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TH44
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Levallois]
      #304298 - 20/08/17 07:23 AM

Levallois - That is very interesting, it looks as if it could be original with the bar/plate let into the action body

My own Field's Patent is in the lightweight .450 No. 1 Carbine, what calibre is yours?

Many thanks for posting, but if it is not too cheeky a few more pics would be appreciated

TH44

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Levallois
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: TH44]
      #304307 - 20/08/17 12:43 PM

TH44,

I appreciate the comments. I've started another post about the H&H with additional photos.

John

--------------------
It ain't like it used to be, but it'll do.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Gibbs Farquharson 303 With Selous Plates [Re: Levallois]
      #344265 - 11/08/20 08:12 PM

Tag: "Selous Plates"

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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