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chapmen
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Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Middle of germany

Unusual german "Leue" falling block system from 1913
#174928 - 06/02/11 12:17 AM

Here is an very unusual falling block system from Leue&Co Berlin, proofed with nitropowder in 1913 at Zella-Mehlis , cal. 8x57IR (.318) with an Helios scope, never had iron sights. Did someone know other rifles with this system?

means " gunfactory Leue&Co Berlin Charlottenburg Supplier for the german army and navy "

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Edited by CptCurl (12/02/11 09:00 AM)

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lancaster
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Re: Unusual german "Leue" falling block system from 1913 [Re: chapmen]
#174992 - 06/02/11 06:41 PM

simple and strong design, isnt it
did the rifle never had iron sigths? very unusual fór this time. asking myself if Leue/Charlottenburg was only the shop for selling the rifles made in Suhl and if Leue itself was only a dealer.
wasnt there also a company "Leue und Timpe" once making guns?

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chapmen
.300 member

Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Middle of germany

Re: Unusual german "Leue" falling block system from 1913 [Re: lancaster]
#175004 - 07/02/11 12:10 AM

I have an old advertisment where you can see open sights on the rifle, but on my rifle the sight would be in the middle of the writing " Leue & Co ........ ", so i think this one was made by special order without any iron or open sights, eventually for sporting use. Leue&Co was the former firm Leue&Timpe. I dont know if it was made by Leue itself or as an order in Zella-Mehlis / Suhl.

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www.jagdwaffensammler.de

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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama

Re: Unusual german "Leue" falling block system from 1913 [Re: chapmen]
#175026 - 07/02/11 08:21 AM

Heinrich Leue was just the firearms merchant. A craftsman in Zella Mehlis made it as they made other similar ones. The Prague makers offered Alexander Henry falling block types and it may be a varation on that. Büchel, Hänel, etc. made target arms but the only one that comes to mind is the Büchel Ideal, but I don't think that is what it is. Axel E. will be along and put us on the strait & narrow.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Unusual german "Leue" falling block system from 1913 [Re: ellenbr]
#175028 - 07/02/11 09:15 AM

Already discussed this gun with chapmen on the phone. I am a little bit puzzled too. This "Leue" action was certainly made in Zella-Mehlis to Leue's design. But it's workings resemble no other falling block action known to me. It is related neither to any of the British falling block designs, nor to the German actions mentioned by Raimey. Note the unusual lever to block linkage by a crosspin riding an oblong hole and the inline striker or "hammer", powered by a coil mainspring, which hits a firing pin inside the breechblock. I know of no other falling block design that predates this rifle, 1913, showing even similar features. I know about another such Leue rifle in the USA.I emailed the owner to provide photos of the proofmarks on his gun. I have not yet found a patent covering the unusual action features, so further research is needed.

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ellenbr
.300 member

Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama

Re: Unusual german "Leue" falling block system from 1913 [Re: kuduae]
#175030 - 07/02/11 10:25 AM

Axel:
I've seen a similar one that Mr. Hummel owns, or had images of, and I thought you had received a similar email around the 10th of August(response 25th August); maybe check you archived emails? But here's a few pics.

Waffenfabrik Leue & Co.
Berlin Charlottenburg 2
Lieferauten fur Die
Deutsche Armee & Marine

I think this is a different scoped version. It appears to have a Austro-Hungarian data-string and maybe a Bohemian Lion on the left side of the tube??

And here's several German falling block type actions that were up forsale:

http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=1631413

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Edited by CptCurl (12/02/11 09:01 AM)

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Unusual german "Leue" falling block system from 1913 [Re: ellenbr]
#175069 - 08/02/11 05:17 AM

The Leue rifle from the Christies auction, lot 125, is on a completely different action: It is built on that mysterious Zella-Mehlis "trade action", late reinforced type, that I recently wrote about in "Waidmannsheil", the bulletin of the GGCA. Apparently by July 1935 W.Kartscher, the then owner of the H.Leue & Co. company, had stopped to use that "Leue" action and used a then standard "trade" action instead. The inside of these actions is completely different from the Leue design, in fact, the only things they have in common are a falling block and an underlever. The Z-M trade action has swinging hammer and mainspring mounted inside the block, and the block is moved by an arm of the lever. The photos show another such trade action, bought in by Greifelt, Suhl from the unknown Zella-Mehlis maker, proofed in Z-M in 1936.

Above I referred to the Leue rifle owned by Mr.Hummel, but where is that other scoped rifle you posted?

Edited by CptCurl (12/02/11 09:02 AM)

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chapmen
.300 member

Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Middle of germany

Re: Unusual german "Leue" falling block system from 1913 [Re: kuduae]
#175460 - 13/02/11 10:18 PM

More pics:
http://www.jagdwaffensammler.de/index.php?id=119
Mike

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ellenbr
.300 member

Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama

Re: Unusual german "Leue" falling block system from 1913 [Re: chapmen]
#175482 - 14/02/11 06:32 AM

Interesting that it has what looks to be a final Weipert set of stamps from 1913. I guess since the 1914 Brussels Proof Commission, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_..._Feu_Portatives , had not yet occurred led to the additional stamps in the country where the longarm was retailed. I would have guessed that there was reciprocity between the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Germany in 1913, but that may not have been the case.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Edited by CptCurl (14/02/11 08:19 AM)

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chapmen
.300 member

Reged: 26/02/10
Posts: 229
Loc: Middle of germany

Re: Unusual german "Leue" falling block system from 1913 [Re: ellenbr]
#175502 - 14/02/11 05:47 PM

The gun was imported from germany to austria by Springers Erben Wien and was proofed 24 of Oktober 1913 in Weipert, it was the 12088. gun that was proofed 1913. ( The proofhouse Wien/ Weipert has all the old journals.....)

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ellenbr
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Re: Unusual german "Leue" falling block system from 1913 [Re: chapmen]
#175513 - 14/02/11 10:07 PM

Mike:
Very interesting info and piece to the puzzle. Was there any indication that any effort, scope fitting or mounts, performed by Springer's Heirs? So as I understand it Springer's Heirs was the firm that submitted the longarm to the Weipert facility and not Leue. I wonder if there was any relationship between Leue & Springer or if that was just typical of the gun-trade?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Unusual german "Leue" falling block system from 1913 [Re: ellenbr]
#175519 - 15/02/11 04:33 AM

Raimey,both scoped "Leue" rifles sport the same unique non-detachable scope mounts. imho the scopes were mounted by the same shop on both, so Springer`s merely bought in the rifles, already mounted, proofed and finished, for resale. Pre-WW1 Austria did not recognize foreign proof, so every imported gun had to be reproofed. To me, the Austrian proof seems to be the Vienna NPv one instead of the Weipert NPw.
BTW, last Saturday I passed through Vejprty, the former Weipert. It is a small, former industrial town in terrible state directly behind the German-Czech border. Only a small creek, the Pöhlbach, seperates it from German Bärenstein. In 1939 Weipert had about 11000 mostly German inhabitants. Due to the "ethnic cleanup" of 1945, when more than 10000 of it's citizens were thrown out of Czechoslovakia, wide parts and most factories are in ruins or torn down. Vejprty's population is now 3000, among them about 400 Germans who returned after 1995.

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ellenbr
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Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama

Re: Unusual german "Leue" falling block system from 1913 [Re: kuduae]
#175524 - 15/02/11 06:09 AM

Axel, you may be correct. Is that a "4" on the breastplate of the double-headed Imperial Eagle. I thought the same about the "V" but comparing and considering wear and curvature, I thought it to be a "W". Also I was curious if Mike contacted the Vienna or Weipert facilty. There's some mark adjacent to the Nitro mark. Thanks for the information on Weipert and it really seems depressing considering the craftsmen and output of the former gun making center. I guess Suhl has experienced a similar decline?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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kuduae
.400 member

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Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Unusual german "Leue" falling block system from 1913 [Re: ellenbr]
#175526 - 15/02/11 06:34 AM

Of course Mike contacted the Vienna proofhouse. As you may gather from my post, Weipert does not exist any more, even the adress of Fückert and the location of the former proofhouse is forgotten since 1945. Weipert had about 50 factories before WW1, making all sorts of metal, textile, glas and other goods. Many of them closed down during the 1920s-30s economic depressions, But most fell into disrepair after their owners and workers were expelled in 1945.

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ellenbr
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Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama

Re: Unusual german "Leue" falling block system from 1913 [Re: kuduae]
#175527 - 15/02/11 07:30 AM

The reason I asked about info from the Weipert facility is that I was under the impression that the archived data at the Weipert facility was available upon request and an associated fee?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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kuduae
.400 member

Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1775
Loc: middle of Germany

Re: Unusual german "Leue" falling block system from 1913 [Re: ellenbr]
#175529 - 15/02/11 08:24 AM

Quote:

Is that a "4" on the breastplate of the double-headed Imperial Eagle.
I guess Suhl has experienced a similar decline?

I read a "4" too. Up to 1918 it was 1-Ferlach, 2-Prague, 3-Weipert, 4-Vienna. After 1918 in Austria, one-headed eagle holding hammer and siccle, it was 1-Ferlach, 2-Vienna. In new-founded Czechoslovakia, Czech lion, it was 1-Prague, 2-Vejprty.
Weipert even met a worse fate than Zella-Mehlis, Suhl, St.Etienne or Birmingham: In those former gunmaking centers at least a few gunmakers are left and there are still people to remember the old times. Not so in Weipert/Vejprty: The entire population has been changed in 1945, and what was left of gunmaking was swallowed up by socialism and government agencies like Lovena. I doubt that the Weipert proofhouse files are available through Austria: In 1918 the Weipert proofhouse was taken over by Czechoslovakia as a running concern without a change of persons. 1945 Vejprty disappeared behind the iron courtain, the people who ran the proofhouse were gone. How can local Weipert files be found outside of Czech archives?

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ellenbr
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Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama

Re: Unusual german "Leue" falling block system from 1913 [Re: kuduae]
#175571 - 16/02/11 01:12 AM

Axel:

Maybe I should have posed the question in an alternate form or either I am confused as to the location/whereabouts of the Weipert ledgers, but I thought that they were either kept in the Weipert/Vejprty area, akin to the state of the info at the Zella-Mehlis museum, or they were transfered to either the Brno or Prague facility? Or were they transfered to the Wien facility? I've seen this site many times, http://www.cuzzs.cz/index.php?lang=en , but haven't made an attempt to contact them as I suspect they only respond to German language requests? Early on I had thought that the Weipert facility closed in 1945 but it appears it remained open until 1954.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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