Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Identification of a Sauer? drilling.

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
Previous topic Previous   Search Results   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1
Lakelander
.275 member


Reged: 09/11/08
Posts: 54
Loc: Norway
Identification of a Sauer? drilling.
      #160254 - 11/05/10 06:13 AM

Hi guys.

I have an old drilling. I have been told that it is an Sauer, but no one can say for sure. It was originally chambered for he 9.3x72D but has later been rechambered for the 9.3x72R.

I wondered if anyone can give an id of the maker and where and when it was produced.

Here are some pictures:

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: Lakelander]
      #160265 - 11/05/10 01:57 PM

Lakelander-


There are a couple of things about that gun that make it somewhat difficult to idnetify.
I assure you that if you send it to me here in Nevada I will be able to much more properly assess and identify it's features and function.

Send me a message with your shipping information, and I will dispatch a pre-built shipping crate for it, return postage fully paid by me as a gesture of my generosity.

The identification process can take months or even years, but the process is guaranteed to be entertaining and fulfilling to me during the course of the work.



Nice Gun!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Lakelander
.275 member


Reged: 09/11/08
Posts: 54
Loc: Norway
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: tinker]
      #160271 - 11/05/10 05:49 PM

Thanks. But getting a weapon sent from Norway to the US is near impossible and very expensive.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: Lakelander]
      #160272 - 11/05/10 06:00 PM

I will try to contact a sauer collector about this

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Lakelander
.275 member


Reged: 09/11/08
Posts: 54
Loc: Norway
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: lancaster]
      #160273 - 11/05/10 06:53 PM

Hi again Lancaster. Thanks for contacting the Sauer collector.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Lakelander
.275 member


Reged: 09/11/08
Posts: 54
Loc: Norway
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: Lakelander]
      #160344 - 12/05/10 07:43 PM

Some more pictures:

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: Lakelander]
      #160411 - 14/05/10 03:50 AM

I see a "ES" just before the forend lug, but can you confirm that the letters "RM" are just ahead of the forward barrel lug? It's definitely not by Sauer and my first guess would be E. Schmidt & Habermann but let me check my notes as I've seen a similar frame/action. It was made between 1912 & 1923 and all the tubes of Krupp steel were forged at G. Schilling's facility. One of the Schillings might have made it but if the initials are "RM" it might take us to one of the Zella-Mehlis craftsmen.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Lakelander
.275 member


Reged: 09/11/08
Posts: 54
Loc: Norway
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: ellenbr]
      #160412 - 14/05/10 04:57 AM

Raimey,

Thanks for the very interesting information.

You are right about the letters ahead of the forward barrel lug, it is "RM".

Anymore info you have about the make and the maker would be highly appreciated.

I must admit I don't know much about E. Schmidt & Habermann. I seem to remember reading somewhere that they specialized in building rifles on the Mauser action?

Thanks
Allan

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: Lakelander]
      #160415 - 14/05/10 05:25 AM

Allan:
Scratch the E. Schmidt & Habermann guess for a moment. For circa 1914, the "RM" just might be for Ernst Richard Meffert, owner of Immanuel Meffert. Can you post a pic of the top of the frame and top strap? Is the word "Treff" or "D.R.G.M." atop it? Yes, E. Schmidt & Habermann was a maker to the trade and as evident by the initials on your example pretty much Suhl & Zella-Mehlis was one big gunshop and firearms merchants sourced the whole of both.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Lakelander
.275 member


Reged: 09/11/08
Posts: 54
Loc: Norway
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: ellenbr]
      #160419 - 14/05/10 06:09 AM

Raimey,

I couldn't find "Treff" or "D.R.G.M." anywhere.

Here are some more pictures:





















Allan

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Lakelander
.275 member


Reged: 09/11/08
Posts: 54
Loc: Norway
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: Lakelander]
      #160421 - 14/05/10 07:20 AM

Found this Meffert drilling on Egun, there are some similarities:

http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=2774293

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: Lakelander]
      #160430 - 14/05/10 11:29 AM

Allan:
Interesting find on the lefthanded Meffert. Yes I'd say it is a Meffert made for the trade. If the strikers, coil springs & cocking indicators are housed in a horizontal metal block attached to the top tang, then without a doubt it is a Meffert. From the pics I can't tell how the striker block would be attached. Mine has a screw or two that holds it to the top tang. Is there a "Nitro" stamp on the scattergun tubes? It may date as early as 1910 if the "Nitro" stamps aren't present and I think Brno Meffert was the owner of Imm. Meffert by 1920 so I don't know what happened to ole Ernst Richard Meffert. It may be another Model in addition to the Treff version.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: ellenbr]
      #160453 - 14/05/10 09:38 PM

Allan:
There are a couple of Meffert Drilling threads on the NE BBS and here is one: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=153366&page=&fpart=&vc=1 . It could very easly be that Imm. Meffert subed the some of the work to the craftsmen in Zella-Mehlis but if proofed there I would expect to see a date code. I'd say that there were very few firms that didn't source some work, whether lower rung or high end craftsmanship work.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Lakelander
.275 member


Reged: 09/11/08
Posts: 54
Loc: Norway
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: ellenbr]
      #160463 - 15/05/10 01:20 AM

Raimey,

Thanks for the info and links. Yes, it seems like this is a Meffert drilling.

There are no other markings on the drilling besides this, it's fainted though:





Some better pictures of the other markings:

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kiwi_bloke
.333 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: Lakelander]
      #160514 - 15/05/10 06:46 PM

I have something fairly similar, also a snap-lock, under lever, presently at a gunsmiths for a year, so it's a bit hard to be exact without it in front of me. It's a Roux breech too which does have that horizontal block referred to. It's of escentially the same caliber, 9,3x72R-Deutch which explains the 8,7mm stamp on your barrel. It's also a Drilling too hence the proof stamp G and crown, (G= Gezogen / rifled).

You may find another pair of initials inside the action. In my case it's RH which appears also on the barrel just behind the foreend hook. Perhaps Richard Hengelhaupt a barrel drawer at Zella-Mehlis. If your barrels were made between 1911 and 1939 in Zella-Mehlis I'd also perhaps expect to see a Z and an M emtertwined on them, as appears on my Drilling.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kiwi_bloke
.333 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #160515 - 15/05/10 07:01 PM

Here's another thought; there's a bold "S" stamped above the 8,7mm stamp on the rifled barrel of your Drilling and perhaps this is what led someone to speculate it was made by Sauer & Sohn. Now they may be right, but I also have a pre-1939 Drilling marked Ernst Steigleder on the barrel topside, but hidden inside the foreend is "SuS", meaning Sauer und Sohn. If you look at the early Sauer factory catalogs, this was always their trademark and they had a close association with Steigleder. So I'm thinking that your bold "S" is something else again, (tempting to say Suhl but that's probably just another red herring).

Also, it seems to me that, the eagle proof mark varies in style when looked at closely from one German proof house to another and someone might recognize if that was the Zella-Mehlis one or not on your firearm. It might be useful for someone to photograph & catalog the different types for future use.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #160525 - 15/05/10 11:50 PM

Kiwi bloke:
I'm fairly confident that the "S" in a lozenge is the mark of Gotthard Schilling's forge. All 3 tubes were fabed at his facility. I'll have to check to see what years Sylvestr Schilling was active, but the "SS" would also be for one of the Schillings. I too have a nifty Ernst Steigleder 16 bore hammer double that has a Berlin as well as Suhl atop the tubes. There was a very close connection between Ernst Steigleder and I think his Suhl shop was just for sourcing. I don't remember how close it was to the Sauer facility. But my hat's off to ole Ernst Steigleder didn't pursue a Hofbüchsenmahcer title and marketed solely on his name. Ernst Steigleder sourced tubes and components from Sauer and if there isn't a "caveman" with a "staff" stamp present on an example, I have serious reservations about any component or example being sourced from Sauer. But there exist the possibility that components may just wear the "SuS". The "Crown" over "G" just notes they pushed a solid projectile down the tube.

Sort of perplexed on the "chicken" and the "egg" saga here. But my 1st guess would be that Meffert was sourced or made guns for the trade. Well, that would mean that Schilling either sourced Meffert for an example in the white or for the components. The other possibility is that Meffert subed some of the work to the Schillings. Gotthard Schilling's forge was in Suhl and Meffert was in Suhl. But there was another family of Schillings in/around Zella-Mehlis and I'm sure they were related. Hard to say for now but what is known is that the whole area of Suhl-Zella-Mehlis was one big gunshop with craftsmen on par with any. The serial number might fall in Meffert's range.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kiwi_bloke
.333 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: ellenbr]
      #160538 - 16/05/10 09:24 AM

The SuS so closely matches, for instance, the SuS in their catalogs and also, I think, the grips on their handguns that even without the caveman marking I'd put the Steigleder Drilling down to Sauer. As you say, Steigleder's Suhl shop was apparently just for sourcing and several accounts suggest this was primarily or exclusively from Sauer & Sohn.

There is now a gun museum at Zella-Mehlis that would perhaps be able to help identify some of these stamps and their owners and/or would better know the relationships between various families. The Sauer family tree, starting with Georg Adam Sauer, gunsmith born Suhl in 1673, is published in the new book JP Sauer & Son by Peter Arfmann and Rolf Kallmeyer.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #160559 - 17/05/10 01:46 AM

Maybe I should rephrase my statement and say that a longarm example made at the Sauer facility will have the stamp of the "caveman" with a "staff", which is a registered Sauer trademark, and possibly a process mark in the tube making and/or fitting to the action. I would also consider the intertwined "SuS" to be a process mark. So a component could have been sourced from Sauer and then the final product was the result of effort of another craftsman like Ernst Steigleder.

But I couldn't exactly remember which makers offered a drilling similar to the one in question but I have found that E. Schmidt & Habermann had an offering as Model 500 marketed as a "Roux-Drilling" and a Model 501 as an upgrade with an automatic sight and English engraving. Friedrich Wilhelm Heym also had a similar Model 124 and a Model 125 with an automatic sight and English engraving. The similarities are too close for coincedence but I can't say if either was the source or was Meffert. I think both offered a combo with a similar frame.


If it is a Treff-battery drilling, there is a description in "The Drilling" by Klups on page 46.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kiwi_bloke
.333 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: ellenbr]
      #160681 - 19/05/10 12:17 PM

I agree with you that SuS could easily just be a process mark on the Steigleder Drilling.

Regards the Roux-action Drilling, in design it closely matches the photobucket pictures (unfortunately out of focus), posted by on this site by Cummins on 11/02/10. The rear sight does have to be erected by hand. The description on page 46 in Norbert Klup's book does seem to match, so yes, it could be a Meffert. The date on it appears to be "11 11", well before the 1929 date Meffert stopped making them. The name on the rib is W. Müchler & Söhne, Neuenrade n/W (who are still in business). They were probably also only the retailer, in the same way another shotgun I have with a Suhl based maker on the rib was actually assembled in Belgium !

I have a photograph of my Roux mechanism, taken because the gunsmith was both impresed by the mechanism and also the amount of rust ! That's since been sorted but these guns are fussy over the diameter of their firing pin springs with anything too wide coming in contact with the adjacent spring on discharge. Getting a hand made replacement for a broken spring and a barrel re-black has taken a year and I'm still waiting.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
450_366
.400 member


Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Identification of a Sauer? drilling. [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #160701 - 19/05/10 06:13 PM

That drilling action is not oncommon here in sweden, and almost newer there is a makers name on them.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1


Previous topic Previous   Search Results   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
0 registered and 49 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Huvius 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 13009

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved