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NitroXAdministrator
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Red dot sight questions
      #314696 - 30/03/18 05:45 AM

The only red dot sights I own are the Trijicon Tritium "powered" models with dual ambient light as well. Pretty hopeless once the Tritium runs out.

As previously said, when I bought them, the redt circle dot was fine. Later with changes to my eye sight they appear as 'stars' and not a solid circle. Taking a photo the red dot is a circle dot.

So I thought this would be the same for all red dot sights.

However I recently had a play with an Australian RAAF Austeyr rifle. It was equipped with a 4x scope and also a small red dot sight on top for close quarters shooting. I think both had red dots and both WERE red circles for me. The RMR type sight on the top definitely was. It was a battery powered model.

So I am thinking the crappy star on the ambient light RMR might be more due to the ambient light collector only and not having tritium power any more.

I would like to give some other sights a try, without having to buy them just to try them out first.

Has anyone experiecned any thing similar?

***

Have to give it a try when I get them. But ideally on my 12g/.223 combination, a 1-6x or 1-8x preferably with an illuminated red dot as well would work well with the rifle and shotgun (at 1x) and the RMR type sight on top of the scope for a shotgun. Perhaps a bit too high to have one's cheeck on the stock for shotgun shooting. But either would be a compromise.

The 1-8x scopes at $3500 to $4500 for a scope are definitely out of my price range at present. A 1-6x might become more affordable. An 8x is better for a .223 but a 6x would probably suffice.

For the 12g/7x65R either a 1x red dot sight might surfice, or the same option as above.

Aimpoint Micro H2


If it was affixed to the dovetail on the barrels.

Or maybe a Aimpoint Compc3 with 30mm tube, I think I have 30mm rings for the Valmet. One ring might do it, assuming they aren't on a bridge mount.








Trijicon AccuPower 1-8x28 MOA Red Sgmntd-Crc Scope - US$1110


https://www.eurooptic.com/Trijicon-AccuPower-1-8x28-MOA-Sgmntd-Crc-Red-RS27-C-1900026.aspx
EDIT: Just noticed this is a 34 mm tube so mounts may not be acquirable?
EDIT2: Bugger no 34 mm rings available.


30 mm tubes, 3.5 or 7 MOA dot - 1x
https://www.aimpoint.com/product/aimpoint-h30s/


https://www.aimpoint.com/product/aimpoint-h30l/


DOCTERsight III - if fitted to the top of the scope with a piccatinny upside down single mount.

http://website.noblex.it-son.de/images/uploads/kataloge/NOBLEX_Katalog-EN_2017.pdf

For mounting a red dot wight on top of the scope - 30mm mount with piccatiny rail:

https://wolfeyes.com.au/scope-mounted-picatinny-rail

Only 1 inch and 30 mm rings seem available for the Valmet/Tikka/Finnclassic system. And yes they are bridge mounts.

https://www.optics-trade.eu/au/mounts/ea...alia-30-mm.html
https://www.optics-trade.eu/au/mounts/sh...from_store%3Den



Schmidt Bender PM II 1-8x24 Short Dot CC CQB CCW - US$2900 - too expensive - 30mm tube

https://www.eurooptic.com/schmidt-bender...ad-ccw-sfp.aspx


Swarovski Z8i 1-8x24 4A-IF Scope 68102 - 30 mm - US$2690
https://www.eurooptic.com/68102-Swarovski-Swarovski-Z8i-1-8x24-4A-IF-68102.aspx


Great scope and reticle, but still too expensive for the purpose.

Leupold VX-6HD 1-6x24mm 30mm CDS-ZL2 Metric Mattle Illuminated FireDot 4 Fine Riflescope 171553
https://www.eurooptic.com/Leupold-VX-6HD...-4-Fine-Ri.aspx
30 mm tube - US $1300 - price better



Swarovski Z8i 0.75-6x20 L 4A-IF Riflescope 68502
https://www.eurooptic.com/Swarovski-Z8i-075-6x20-L-4A-IF-Riflescope-68502.aspx
30mm tube - US$2400 - still expensive for the purpose






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Edited by NitroX (30/03/18 07:27 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: NitroX]
      #314697 - 30/03/18 06:05 AM

I put a red dot sight on my 10-22 Ruger as I thought it might be good for shooting field rats.

Not so - hated it - put a 6-18X Simmons back on the rifle and was happy again.

The IPSC shooters put them on their RACE guns - but they shoot close ranges only.

My opinion only.

Some guys must like them or they'd all be out of business.

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: DarylS]
      #314698 - 30/03/18 06:13 AM

Red dot sight would be for the shotgun mainly. Mounted on top of the scope. Or the 7mm combination barrel if no scope used.

They certainly aren't useful for longer range shooting. A 3.5 MOA dot at 200 yards would be 7 inches so perhaps acceptable for a medium rifle.

The Trijicon scope looks useful and affordable for both purposes. The big red circle might be very useful for 1x two eyes open shotgun shooting as well. The lower price is suspect though. Why two or three times or more for other scope brands? Perhaps a big difference in quality associated with the price?

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mchughcb
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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: NitroX]
      #314714 - 30/03/18 11:17 AM

https://youtu.be/1rCyVrnENgY

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mchughcb
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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: mchughcb]
      #314715 - 30/03/18 11:20 AM

https://youtu.be/src-r8oDTzk

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DarylS
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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: mchughcb]
      #314731 - 30/03/18 05:20 PM

For a shotgun, the 7moa is likely best for a shotgun. The smaller circles might be difficult to pick up in bright sun light.


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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: mchughcb]
      #314733 - 30/03/18 05:25 PM

Thanks for the videos.

I do think the "RMR" style red dot sights are the best for shotgun use. And less accurate shorter range rifle use. {PProbably up to a50 metres (?) or so. But for me pretty useless for small game rifle shooting. OK for medium game.

As said I might try mounting one on top of a scope for shotgun use. The cheeck will be well off the butt stock using it for the shotgun though. How good? Won't know without trying.

Do you like your Minox scope? Does it have an illuminated reticle? What type of reticle? What price? Sorry for all the questions.

A 4x or 5x scope at the upper end is fine for me, for medium game hunting. For small game hunting, using headshots a lot, I really prefer a 8x to 10x. Strongly prefer. Even on my rimfires. I might cope with a 6x .

At the lower end, because of the shotgun barrel I strongly prefer a 1x. I think a red dot illuminated reticle would be handy for two eye open shotgun shooting.

Your aimpoint micro sight was also noted. And quite usuable on a shotgun-medium rifle combination at lesser ranges.

All of my BS and discussion depends on what my eye sees for the red dot, of course. Need to try some of these out in person.

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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: DarylS]
      #314734 - 30/03/18 05:28 PM

Quote:

For a shotgun, the 7moa is likely best for a shotgun. The smaller circles might be difficult to pick up in bright sun light.




Yes I agree. But only if that sight is only used for the shotgun or rifle at very close range, say less than a hundred metres. 7 inches at 100 yards is a pretty big aiming point.

I would go for these if mounting one on top of a scope for shotgun use.

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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: NitroX]
      #314736 - 30/03/18 05:34 PM

Someone mentioned what happens if the shotgun and rifle barrel do not shoot to the same point of impact?

I was reading on another forum. A Valemt/Tikka owner mentioned sighting in for the shotgun. Then adjusting the rifle barrel to the same point of impact. Sounds tricky. But the shotgun spread needs to be less precise than the bullet point of impact. So as long as the bullet impact is in the middle of the shot spread at shotgun ranges and at the point at 100 metres, for me about three-quarters of an inch high, for a .222 or .223, then that works.

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Rule303
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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: NitroX]
      #314742 - 30/03/18 06:06 PM

I run several Aimpoints. The 9000L on the 416 Rigby, H2 on a 308 and a CompML2, an earlier version of the Compoc3 on the 35 Whelen. If you wind the brightness up so it is to bright it appears as a star, turn the power down a bit. They have the longest battery life of the Red dots and one of the more durable. Mine are 2 MOA

Most think of red dots as short range sights. They can be used as far as you are capable of. Think of the old open sights, people used them out past 300mts. These are quicker and a bit more precise.

Edited by Rule303 (30/03/18 06:08 PM)


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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: NitroX]
      #314743 - 30/03/18 06:39 PM

Docter Unipoint 1-4x24R 0 Scope 56635
https://www.eurooptic.com/docter-optic-unipoint-1-4x24-r-riflescope-0-reticle-56635.aspx
30mm - US$1155


Reticle is no.4 with red dot in moddle



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Ripp
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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: NitroX]
      #314761 - 31/03/18 12:29 AM

I have a conventional scope 1-4 power on one of my AR-s with a 2 o'clock red dot positioned on it for close quarters..works great...and capable of hitting targets as far as I care to shoot actually..and as close... have used in a mock 3 gun scenarios... its a deadly combo..

Also have a Leupold VX6 2-12 on my 375H&H that has their "fire-dot" reticle..using it in early morning and late evening stalks last year in Cammeroon ..really liked the use of that ..


Finally, have a Trijicon MRO on another one of my AR's.... 2moa dot...again, works fine at close or medium ranges...
http://www.trijicon.com/na_en/products/product1.php?id=MRO

In the correct applications, think red-dots are awesome..did see a hangun test however where the shooters times on multiple targets was actually a split second faster using conventional sights vs red-dot on a handgun .. which surprised me..personally for self defense, IMHO, I would not use a red-dot on a handgun..if you are using a handgun that would typically mean close quarters..and one more thing to go wrong/malfunction... point and shoot with the front sight..all that is needed at that point..oh, and two to the body and one to the head..

Ripp

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mchughcb
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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: Ripp]
      #314774 - 31/03/18 03:23 AM

Minox zxi 1-5x24 with 30mm tube is made in japan. It is a big but robust scope. It is iluminated with cross hairs. I bout it for $us 460 from europtics on special. So far very happy with purchase.

Edited by mchughcb (31/03/18 03:24 AM)


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Homer
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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: mchughcb]
      #314785 - 31/03/18 03:50 PM

G'Day Fella's,

NitroX, I have some experience with only a couple of different Red Dot scopes.
I have an Aimpoint, Comp C3 on my .350 Rem Mag (Rem M637/M7 and a single, 30mm ring) rifle, and it is great.
I wouldn't hesitate buying another of these, or other Aimpoints.
I also have a Trijicon RMR (LED) sight on a Win M92 in .45 Colt, and it is OK but probably limited to 60ish meters. I'm not sure if I have this positioned to far forward (the sight mount, replaced the rear sight)? There is a very good chance, that I may be the weak point with this rifle set up?....!!!
I also have another version of the Trijicon RMR (Tritium), on a 1911 type pistol, and it is also great.

I wouldn't actually purchase a Suid Afrikan made, Trijicon Accu Power scopes.
A mate of mine used to work for them here in Oz, and he told me about some of their short comings.

Hope that helps

Happy Easter
Homer

--------------------
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Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: Homer]
      #314788 - 31/03/18 04:08 PM

Interesting I at first selected the category for CQC/combat type scopes thinking lower magnifications would be common there. But I also found out, they have these over complicated "tactical" reticles, and also a huge price increase as a result! A "tactical" reticle seems to add a thousand dollars to the price.

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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: mchughcb]
      #314790 - 31/03/18 04:12 PM

Quote:

Minox zxi 1-5x24 with 30mm tube is made in japan. It is a big but robust scope. It is iluminated with cross hairs. I bout it for $us 460 from europtics on special. So far very happy with purchase.




Thanks. Had a look and their range varies in price from US$700 to US$1500 for 1-5x scopes. Not sure why three scopes have three prices 700, 1000, 1500.

Will think about them. And see what reviews are posted on Minox on the net. A 1-5x would be fine for the 7mm, and if forced, do on the .223.

Converting all these US$ to A$ hurts however.

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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: Homer]
      #314791 - 31/03/18 04:23 PM

Quote:

I wouldn't actually purchase a Suid Afrikan made, Trijicon Accu Power scopes.
A mate of mine used to work for them here in Oz, and he told me about some of their short comings.




The Trijicon company in general has a lot of short comes. A reason why I am reluctant to buy anything from them at all. Some of their product is simple crap.

No service back up for civilain sales outside of the USA. A member on NE helped me get bases for my RMR's as trijicon could or would not supply. Thanks to the member, V-Cs agent in the USA, Ken Buch I think it was.

And I knew two guys working for them. One of them still a member here before they both left the company.

I will strongly prefer a Docter sight before anything made by Triji-con.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Edited by NitroX (08/04/18 08:00 PM)


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Rule303
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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: NitroX]
      #314793 - 31/03/18 05:45 PM

I have two of Trijacons excellent 1.25-4X24 scopes with the picket post. The only Trijacon reticle I like. I am not so sure about their replacements and scopes made after these.

Ripp I am not surprised an open sighted hand gun is faster, it should be if used correctly like you said. Front sight on target or if a semi auto just the top of the slide aligned on target. If 5 meters or under just bore a hole with your eyes where you want to hit, shove the gun at it and fire. If you have a good grip and technique you wont miss the neck let alone head of hart lung region.


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mchughcb
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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: Rule303]
      #314819 - 01/04/18 10:10 AM

Minox have the american za cheap version, zx more expensive japanese version and the ze tge most expensive europe version (read german made).

Choose your price point.


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Rule303
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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: mchughcb]
      #314828 - 01/04/18 06:20 PM

Quote:

Minox have the american za cheap version, zx more expensive japanese version and the ze tge most expensive europe version (read german made).

Choose your price point.




Chuck thanks for the info. Was wondering the different price points.


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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: Rule303]
      #314832 - 01/04/18 09:45 PM

I have a couple of Leupold VX6 1-6x24 on my two Chapuis doubles and they have been great so far.

I also used a Swaro 1.7-13.3 8Xi last year in Cameron and it was magnificent.

My AHR 375 sports a 1-8x24i Schmidt and Bender and while I prefer the Swaro on my new Joe Smithson 375 the bender has been reliable.

In my opinion, the 1-8x24 illuminated scopes are the best hunting scopes ver made. 8x is lots of magnification for bug gme and at 1x they work super fast if needed.

--------------------
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Ripp
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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: NitroX]
      #314849 - 02/04/18 04:55 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I wouldn't actually purchase a Suid Afrikan made, Trijicon Accu Power scopes.
A mate of mine used to work for them here in Oz, and he told me about some of their short comings.




The Trijicon company in general has a lot of short comes. A reason why I am reluctant to buy anything from them at all. Some of their product is simple crap.

No service back up for civilain sales outside of the USA. A member on NE helped me get bases for my RMR's as trijicon could or would not supply. Thanks to the member, V-Cs agent in the USA, Ken Buch I think it was.

And I knew two guys working for them. One of them still a member here before they both left the company.

I will strongly prefer a Docter sight before anything made by Triji-con.




I have never used their scopes..in fact back about 10 years ago a rep for Trijicon asked if he could film my Big Horn Sheep hunt for a tv show..the only condition was I had to use one of their scopes while filming..I declined stating I had waited most of my life for that hunt..and will use what I am comfortable with..having said that I have numerouse Trijicon sights on my Glock handguns and really like them a lot..also know many of the LEO's around here have a MRO on their AR type rifle..no problems I am aware of..

So surprised of your comments??

Ripp

(edited to correct spelling in quotation)

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Edited by NitroX (08/04/18 07:46 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: Ripp]
      #315091 - 08/04/18 07:44 PM

Quote:

I have never used their scopes..in fact back about 10 years ago a rep for Trijicon asked if he could film my Big Horn Sheep hunt for a tv show..the only condition was I had to use one of their scopes while filming..I declined stating I had waited most of my life for that hunt..and will use what I am comfortable




Bloody good decision. If they want anyone to use their crap sights they should pay for the whole hunt, flights, and time by the hour ... Trijicon always wanting cheap 'promotions' ...

Plus who wants to use their crap scopes anyway. Far far better choices.

As for "service". They have a catalogue of stuff they can not supply and no one in their company seems to know where stuff comes from. Some of the accessories needed for their crap products shoukd be quite commonly needed.

IMO their main and really only interest outside the USA is selling their crap without any support or service. Their main interest in selling outside the USA is selling to military and police forces.

Don't want to dwell on Trijicon crap on this thread. Not a topic of interest in the slightest.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (08/04/18 07:49 PM)


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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: NitroX]
      #315092 - 08/04/18 07:59 PM

Of interest. Have been in town this week and had a look at some items of interest. Very small selection only available and gunshops which can't even be bothered to have batteries to power their red dot scopes. I wonder why they can't sell anything?

Looked at a Aimpoint H@ Micro and overall seems not bad. The 2 MOA red dot I find completely inadequate and way too small for the eye. While I think a 2 MOA dot is maximum say for 100 metre or more rifle shooting, it is way to small to use and hard to see. As for using with a shotgun, wouldn't even consider it.

For a shotgun I think a full 7 MOA would be desired. But way to big for accurate rifle shooting. I would have a look at a 3.5 MOA dot just for the sake of it. Perhaps it is a little better than the 2 MOA dot.

I think these Aimpoint Micro sights are only for very close shooting purposes and need a bigger dot for quick shooting.

Price at the gunshop was from memory A$800 or A$900 which is expensive for such a simple sight IMO.

NEXT ...

Had a look at a Leupold variable scope supposedly with an illuminated reticle but no batteries so that is going to stay on the shelf forever is my guess ... and it did look old already ... reckon that was $A800 as well. Last time I looked at a illuminated Leupold at that shop they had a $1500 scope, which could be bought for $800 elsewhere ...


NEXT ...

at a another gun shop - "those sorts of scopes cost $800 or more, we don't stock that sort of stuff ..." I wonder why everyone buys off the internet nowadays, when a local shop won't stock decent stuff? The earlier shop did have Swarovski and other good brands and a better selection. Know where to go nowadays for a scope, as long as a $2 battery is not required for displaying a $1000 plus valued scope for sale ...

BUT did buy a scope at the second gun shop, see next post.

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Re: Red dot sight questions [Re: NitroX]
      #315093 - 08/04/18 08:17 PM

What I have bought is someone to get me started, a compromise. But which should work well enough for some purposes.

Not illuminated at all, remember the problem with gunshops needing to actually show an illuminated reticle or dot by having batteries on hand ...

I purchased a Leupold 1-4x VX Hog pig plex scope.



I see from the Leupold site the scope is no longer available. Guess some old stock is still available. I know the gunshop still had another one for sale, as the owner had a meltdown when he saw the price tag was $495 on the box from the warehouse and $395 on the scope in the display case. I said "Perhaps it has sat there for a couple of years ..." ... not an appreciated comment.

My reticle is like this, but no illuminated dot:



The German style no4 reticle with thick posts, and fairly thick cross hairs and circle, should be quite useful for using with a shotgun barrel in 1x (my estimate is it is 1.25x).

The same should be fine for medium game for my 7x65R barrel at reasonable distances.

HOWEVER I do plan to use it first on my 12g/.223. As the mount base should be exchangeable on either the 12g/.223 or 12g/.7x65R, or even my 9.3x74R U/O. I will set it up first for the .223, sighting in, doing any regulation changes etc. As shooting some bunnies, and perhaps the odd fox will get 50x the use than the 7x65R.

Will be able to see just how much the thicker reticle impedes or not small rabbit heads at say 200 metres or less.

Will also see how well the 1x scope will work for shotgun shooting and how well I cope using a scope for a shotgun. Something I have not done before.

Will report as it progress.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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