Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles
      #380699 - 07/11/23 08:24 PM

I've just finished listening to Patterson's "Man-eaters of Tsavo" again.

He used a 303 rifle and a 12-bore shotgun during the incidents. Hecalso recommended a 303 a 450 Express and a 12-bore shotgun for safaris to East Africa

It got me thinking about the versatility of the 12-bore and it's versatility. And it's application today.

Patterson mentions using shot and ball.

I remember Marrakai looking for a 12-bore paradox to use on the goose and duck wetlands, but be versatile for ball on pigs and what not, that might also be encountered.

Please relate your experience, experiences, and knowledge on the subject. Using ball, slugs, brenneckes in shotguns, paradoxes, exploras, and also shot. Or ball and projectiles in a 12-bord rifle. What ranges have you shot game at? What game? How accurate is it? How good is shotgunning from a paradox type barrel? Anything else?

Thanks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
85lc
.375 member


Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 915
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #380702 - 07/11/23 10:15 PM

John,

I remember reading Patterson's account and it seemed that a 12 bore paradox gun would have worked well for him. While I do have a paradox (Cogswell & Harrison), I really used it for quail as I use a BSW 8mm DR for deer hunting.

I did buy a rifle choke for my goose gun to see how well it works and it seems to stabilize slugs very well. If we get a chance to hunt hogs, I would like to try that gun.

--------------------
RB


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 85lc]
      #380706 - 08/11/23 01:12 AM

Patterson used a 12-bore shotgun, not a paradox.

However a paradox or Explora would be better. \

Steel shot might be an issue nowadays.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #380708 - 08/11/23 03:09 AM

No paradox, but did develop RB loads for a 12 bore SxS with "FLUID STEEL" barrels. I'm assuming it was an early 1900's, export shotgun from the UK. I cut the tubes to 24 or 25" IIRC. The original chokes were .705", or improved modified. The bores were .724" - a "tight" 12.
I used BP as well as smokeless and found smokeless loads with 7625, 4756 and blue dot (no longer have the data) that shot a .682" round ball, held in the centre of the bore with the cut-off base of a WAA12 white trap shot cup. I used another one, cup-down on the power with whatever fiber cushion wads in between for the correct wad height to get a star crimp.
I was pushing the balls with smokeless, at the same speed (1,500fps) as the 7 dram black powder load I finalized with. The BP load of 191gr. was really hard to shoot in the light 12 bore, but the smokeless loads also shot to the "sights" I installed on the 'raised' rib.
The velocity was roughly the same as I got in my .69 cal. ML, using a mere 6 drams with a tightly patched round ball.
Accuracy wise, I could plant a right and a left on a 10" square piece of steel at 100 meters, shooting offhand. I had mounted a scope on the gun for load testing. It worked very well.
Shot only one deer with it, at about 100yards. The ball hit the deer, must have been on an exhale, between the spine and the lungs, making a visible hole, both sides.
I lost that deer and actually searched for it, for 3 FULL days. I'm sure I walked past it's dead body at some point, maybe, but could not find it. I am or was a good tracker, yet could not find the deer. There was no blood trail at all. It should have been an easy kill, but I guess, just too long a distance. sickened me to lose the deer and I did not hunt the rest of the fall. This was mid October and no snow.
Oh, further note, with the BP load, I learned to put a hard card on the BLACK powder, as if a plastic wad is on the power, the bore will be coated with melted plastic. Had to use a tornado brush (spooled stainless) to get it out.
Oh, further, the first shot I took with the BP load, split the stock which I had to repair before further testing.
From W.W.Greener's book, there were 3 BP loads listed, 110gr.= 4 drams, 150gr. = 5 1/2 drams and 191gr. = 7 drams.
I sold or traded the gun to my buddy Keith, who sold it to a friend of his, who used it for grouse and moose.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
85lc
.375 member


Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 915
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #380715 - 08/11/23 07:53 AM

Daryl,

That is a very interesting, informative writeup. I wam surprised you used 7 drams as I thought that 3 1/2 drams was the load for 12 bore guns. I don't reload BP cartridge guns and only load my 18 ga Barnes DR which is a muzzle loader. It is interesting to see WW Greener with loads up to 7 drams.

It is amazing that a deer with a 3/4" hole shot between its spine & lungs will run. One of my friend told me about shooting a deer that had been shot with an arrow the previous year and somehow survived.

--------------------
RB


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 85lc]
      #380718 - 08/11/23 09:31 AM

The deer dropped and I thought - cool! Then, while reloading that barrel, he got up and bolted. At that time, I got to see the hole in his right side, just down from where the spine would be. By the time I got the gun closed and auto-matic safety off(it was worn smooth and I was wearing gloves - bad move for me, he was gone. I sat down and waited a good 15 minutes., before heading down to the impact site to start tracking him. In those days, I was a good tracker.
I am positive I passed that one dead, while trying to find racks that evening. He was throwing one foot weirdly, is the only way I was able to track him. The next day, all I could do was to continue area searching for him. Did the same the next day, no luck. There was a grizzly or two (sow and cub) in that immediate area so I'm sure it wasn't a complete waste.
Lots of elk and moose have been shot years after surviving a non-fatal arrow wound.
As arrows kill by cutting vital organs, bleeding the animal, if a blood filled organ is not struck and the arrow falls out before infection sets in, the animal will likely survive with a healed wound.
Deer have been seen grazing within seconds of having a super sharp - double bladed arrow pass completely through both lungs. They then drop, or take a couple wobbly steps and drop when bled out. This is less likely to happen with a mechanical or multi-blade broadhead with a chisel point as the point itself hurts at impact before the blades are deployed. That's my opinion on this phenomenon of deer going back to feeding after having a complete pass-through with an arrow.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
85lc
.375 member


Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 915
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #380719 - 08/11/23 09:58 AM

Darly,

I shot a young deer at probably 20 -m30 yards with a 45 caliber percussion rifle loaded with 110 gr 3F. We were ground hunting and were laying down near a trail. I heard the deer approach and thye only shot I had was a face on shot so shot him in the chest. The deer went down and I jumped up to reload. When loaded, I saw another young deer about 10 - 15 yards standing broadside from where the 1st deer dropped. I was so tempted to shoot this deer (which is legal in Georgia). I decided no top shoot because I would then have to drag out two deer, my rifle and my kit. Well, I walked thru the brush and my deer was gone. Hmmm, likely he got up and that is what I saw. If only for a double rifle, I could have walked over immediately and finsihed the joib.

We tracked that deer for hours, finding each place where it lay down (puddle of blood). It started with finding a drop of blood every 10' to 15'. However, at the end, we couldn't ind any signs. Becue of all the leaves and brush. there were not any tracks that we could find.

I agree about an arrow. No real shock, just bleed out.

--------------------
RB


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 85lc]
      #380745 - 30/11/23 03:25 AM

Where were we?

I'm a bit lost on these. As shotguns, they have more open chokes? Or no chokes at all?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
85lc
.375 member


Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 915
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #380756 - 30/11/23 04:22 AM

I believe the Lancaster oval bore are open choke. My Cogsworth is a Modified.

--------------------
RB


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 85lc]
      #380757 - 30/11/23 04:29 AM

Quote:

Daryl,

That is a very interesting, informative writeup. I wam surprised you used 7 drams as I thought that 3 1/2 drams was the load for 12 bore guns. I don't reload BP cartridge guns and only load my 18 ga Barnes DR which is a muzzle loader. It is interesting to see WW Greener with loads up to 7 drams.

It is amazing that a deer with a 3/4" hole shot between its spine & lungs will run. One of my friend told me about shooting a deer that had been shot with an arrow the previous year and somehow survived.





W.W. Greener's 9th edition of THE BOOK lists the 3 loads.
110gr. 153gr. and 191gr.

If there was a 3 1/2 dram load, which is 95gr., it is likely a light SxS load.

In my SxS, 191gr. shot to the same 'group' at 100 meters. What was interesting, was that smokeless that developed the same speed of 1,550fps, kicked about 50% of the BP load, if that much and shot identically.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1414
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #380760 - 30/11/23 05:41 AM

NOTE: My opinion only
As to the mentioned different loads. One needs to remember that the guns in question; Paradox, Explora, Jungle Gun, Shot & Ball, etc. were not all "mixed use" as in for wing shooting, small game, and larger game.

There were "Paradox" (I will use just this word to describe them all) guns made to quite different weights depending upon what the owner expected to use them for. The light weight 3 1/2 Dram ones were certainly expected to be used for wing shooting, small game, deer, etc. and developed 1000-1100 fps with typical round ball or conical.
Then there were the 12 bore guns made to weigh 11-13 lbs that were undoubtedly meant not for any wing shooting but for the largest game. This is where those mentioned heavy 7 Dram loads were used and they gave 1500+ FPS velocity to the round balls and conicals.

I have a full rifle Lyon & Lyon 12 Bore weighing 13lbs 1oz proved for 191 grains (7 Drams), later on the makers and sportsmen found that the "rifled choke" system offered equal accuracy with allegedly less recoil & greater velocity compared to the fully rifled arms.
7 Dram 12 Bores are/were not rare at the time and ARE real thumpers. The heavy 12 Bore guns seemed to be much used in India against all sorts of large game. Whether that same heavy 12 Bore was prudent against Buffalo, Gaur, or Elephant was/is subject to debate then and now.

-Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 3DogMike]
      #380880 - 03/12/23 03:48 PM

Holland 12 bore paradox guns were all in the 7lb range. For nitro loadings they were proofed for 28grs to 42grs of cordite. Each gun in addition to being regulated for conical, they were also patterned for shot.
Westley 12 bores followed suit. The super magnum explora had ballistics similar to a 12 or 13lb 12 bore rifle but were generally a 7.5 lb gun. Truly a gun capable for snipe to buffalo.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: gatsby]
      #380882 - 03/12/23 05:25 PM

If the 13 lb "paradoxes" were not for wing shooting, what purpose did the shot loads have?

I don't accept they were for "buckshot" against medium game. Why would someone use buckshot when they could use a ball or conical?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: gatsby]
      #380893 - 04/12/23 02:56 AM

Quote:

Holland 12 bore paradox guns were all in the 7lb range. For nitro loadings they were proofed for 28grs to 42grs of cordite. Each gun in addition to being regulated for conical, they were also patterned for shot.
Westley 12 bores followed suit. The super magnum explora had ballistics similar to a 12 or 13lb 12 bore rifle but were generally a 7.5 lb gun. Truly a gun capable for snipe to buffalo.




That is about what my SxS weighed and it kicked HARD with 7 drams & a light, 482gr. ball.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1414
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #380894 - 04/12/23 03:02 AM

Quote:

If the 13 lb "paradoxes" were not for wing shooting, what purpose did the shot loads have?

I don't accept they were for "buckshot" against medium game. Why would someone use buckshot when they could use a ball or conical?



As the "Paradox" (read rifled choke) guns were offered in lighter weights, as well as heavy, the shot loads would have been of the lighter guns. The 11-13 lb guns almost certainly for large game with ball or conical. Maybe a heavy shorter barrel version for buckshot used in a Howda for Tiger stopping?
-Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #380900 - 04/12/23 08:32 AM

A 13lb 12 bore smooth bore ball gun could be used for shot. 13 lb is the starting point for 8 gauge shotguns.
Similar use.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 3DogMike]
      #380902 - 04/12/23 08:57 AM

Holland and Westley never produced any heavy 12 bore rifled choke guns.
Holland released a few 10 paradoxes between 7 and 13 lbs. most 8 dram 10 paradoxes were 13 lb guns.
Westley was content with the SME. Leslie Taylor theorized an 1800fps load could be developed for the gun.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by gatsby (04/12/23 09:18 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: gatsby]
      #380913 - 04/12/23 03:06 PM

Is anyone making paradox style barrels today? The answer must be yes as Colin/Ahmed577 had a barrel set made for his 10-bore Purdey I believe, if I remember correctly.

I would like to see them more common again. Price might be a detractor.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 3DogMike]
      #380914 - 04/12/23 03:15 PM

Quote:

Maybe a heavy shorter barrel version for buckshot used in a Howda for Tiger stopping?




From reading Corbett again, I was listening to a couple audio books while the NE forums were down, such use would result in lots of wounded tigers. If one had a paradox, why wouldn't one use a ball or conical?

If H&H and WR didn't make any heavy 12-bore paradoxes, who did?

I think the lighter guns fit the mould better, shot, wing shooting, and medium to big game use.

***

I'd like Marrakai to chime in. He was looking for and acquired an actual paradox style vintage 12-bore. For actual use. I'd like to hear if it's had actual use, of both sorts. Ducks and geese, with the possibility of boar and buffalo?

***

In the age and anti gunner, anti hunting introduced steel shot, especially on wetlands, is it the final death of the paradox concept? I guess bismuth can still be used. I can get only 4 shot, 12 gauge bismuth loaded shells. At a price ... No bismuth shot though. Luckily 4 shot works well on ducks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #380917 - 04/12/23 04:28 PM

My late hunting partner had a SxS .410 that I tried to get him to let me rifle the full choke on the left barrel. Nadda.
I thought it would make a neat little .410" deer rifle/grouse gun, using BP and grooved lubricated 200gr. bullets. It was chambered 3", so the cases would hold enough powder for the job.
I merely brought this up to perhaps give someone an idea.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #380918 - 04/12/23 04:56 PM

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/w...11-c-b844126b78

Not a paradox per say but you just missed one at Holts

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: gatsby]
      #380919 - 04/12/23 05:26 PM

Quote:

I'd like Marrakai to chime in.




Alas, my nitro Paradox has not yet had a field trip, but it did well in the NT "State" titles last month. We have since talked about a "bore-gun only" trip to the back country hunting blocks but with the build-up storms all around us now, it will have to wait till next dry season.

I have been trying to develop coated Fosbery projectiles to reduce leading in the rifled chokes but the wet-acetone method is proving difficult with such large projectiles and the short ~15 second window to get complete coverage. One of our club members is very successful with this though, so I shall persevere.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2387
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #380922 - 04/12/23 06:21 PM

H&H made 12 bore Paradox's in several charge weights including different Magnum loads, in both black powder and Nitro. Consequently they were made in different gun weights to suit the different loads, the heavier the charge the heavier the weight of the gun. The Nitro Magnum guns with the heaviest charge were made using Double Rifle actions and had back action locks, as well as 2 3/4 chambers. Obviously this defeated the initial design of the original paradox which was to have a light well balanced shotgun that could effectively shoot a Fosberry projectile to 100 yards, however the heavier guns were made due to demand.

Westley Richards also had standard and Magnum guns.

Holland and Holland have a Paradox in their current line up and have had for quite some time. A couple have come up for sale at Holts over more recent times.

I purchased a Nitro Paradox myself recently, A 1930's CW Andrews of London/Birmingham with 29 inch barrels and sighted for 50 and 100 yards, it has the original case in good condition. It was owned by the one time Governor of Malay.

I have been collecting components and have been lucky enough to be able to gather together lead, powder, primers, wads and cases for over 3500 shots. Also luckily for me there are quite a number of very experienced Paradox and bore gun owners in the BGRC who have vast experience in loading.

I intend to use mine for both types of game as originally intended, and could have used it recently on a rice trip where we shot a good number of birds, but also for the first time pigs have appeared in reasonable numbers on the property, and deer have also now been sighted by the farmer. If I had the Paradox with me I could have easily bagged at least four pigs, so very keen to get it working accurately.

I will also be using it at the BGRC shoots and we in the process of developing some new Bore gun events using animal type targets.

Very excited to say the least.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1297
Loc: France / Germany
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #380927 - 04/12/23 10:55 PM

https://egun.de/market/item.php?id=19369113

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: grandveneur]
      #380935 - 05/12/23 04:27 AM

Sounds GREAT, Matt. I 'take it' this is a 12 bore. The barrels seem long to me, but they are what they are.
What is it regulated for in bullet weights? Marked on the barrels?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2387
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #380938 - 05/12/23 08:27 AM

Yeah thanks Daryl, once I have it up and going I will try and do a post with some pictures.

Yes definitely 12 Bore, regulated for 750 grain bullet and 1 1/8 ounce of shot.

28" was the standard length for most makers at the time but 30" was not uncommon so I guess this is in between, it certainly swings and balances nicely.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
85lc
.375 member


Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 915
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #380941 - 05/12/23 10:52 AM

Guys, This discussion has been very informative. I had understood that the paradox was really a small and large game gun. I have used my Cogswell & Harrison for quail and ploan to use it with Fosbery style projectiles for deer (just no buffalo in Georgia).

The Westley Magnum gun that I saw was in the shotgun weight range (just handling and not weighing) and chambered for 2 3/4" shells.

--------------------
RB


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 85lc]
      #380965 - 06/12/23 03:52 AM

Westley SMEs didn't weigh much more than 7.5 lbs. unfortunate to the shooter.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2387
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #381034 - 08/12/23 08:17 AM

Tony, a bore gun only trip to the Back Country would be fantastic, I have been wondering about how the projectiles would work on Buffalo and Scrub Bulls. I am currently reading the book on the Paradox which is an excellent read:

https://www.bundukibooks.com.au/Paradox-Vol-1-Baker-Lake-p/bt17.htm

In it there are a significant number of excerpts from magazine articles written at the peak period of Paradox use by sportsman of the day, and one in particular was very interesting in that the author states that the Hollow Point Fosberry was much more effective than the solid, after having tried both on a significant number animals.

Powder coating is another method that some of the guys are using to coat lubricate their projectiles. The Powder Coater that we use can spray Teflon which of course has a very low coefficient of friction.
I will look into and report back.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #381037 - 08/12/23 10:25 AM

Lyman sells a moly lubricant spray that works very well as a bullet coating. I spray my cast air bug bullets with it, along with my bullet moulds to prevent least sticking. It drys almost immediately to leave an extremely thin coating.
I sprayed some .450 gr. bullets for my .50/70 for use with smokeless powder. It worked very well, without any leading.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2387
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #381038 - 08/12/23 10:58 AM

Thanks Daryl, that sounds worth trying. I have found it on the Lyman site, I will get some.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #381057 - 09/12/23 07:05 AM

Great thread.

This short vid here shows the challenges and failures and successes w/ RB's in smooth and rifle tubes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnQHEZ_w0Fc

By the way, Wade here has done some absolutely phenomenal works w/ buckshot. I found his vids some years ago and correspond with him from time to time. Great guy. Really amazing stuff & using his principles I've been able to duplicate his performance. He's spent a lot less time working on RB loads and slugs and even there has done some great work.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #381062 - 09/12/23 10:03 AM

Quite interesting using a 14 bore ball & similar concept to the cups I used.
With the round ball loads I was using, Rod, I was getting 1 1/2" to 2" at 50yards from a SxS smoothbore. I didn't use the slower powders, but did use SR7624 and SR4756 along with black powder, 7 drams of that.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #381067 - 09/12/23 03:04 PM

Daryl has always done much better than me with round balls, and we have been 'round this buoy on these forums before!
Nevertheless, permit me to retell my earlier experiences here, if only for a laugh!

About 20 years ago I decided to experiment with round balls in the 12-bore. I started with pure lead 12-bore balls from the muzzle-loading suppliers, but quickly learned that they deform in the bore on firing, and fly all over the place. Shooting 16-bore pure lead balls in a 12-bore shot-cup was the next step, however results were just as bad.

Then I got the notion that solid steel balls would not deform (!), so I obtained a couple dozen polished steel ball bearings from the mob that rebuild automotive CV-joints, and loaded them up in AA-wads and shot them out of a cylinder-bore double I had lying around. Here is the result:



The two high ones were from the clean, slightly oily (?) barrel, the remainder went into about 3 1/2 inches, at 25 yards!

Turns out the wad was trying to crawl past the ball in the bore, pushing the ball off line before it exited the muzzle. Check out the recovered wads, very uneven damage to the shot-cup petals. Some petals were chopped off completely!



So...! The next step was to try to center the ball in the shot-cup. I cut the over-powder part off a few 16-bore wads, inverted them in the bottom of the 12-bore shot-cup, and dropped the ball-bearing on top. The results improved slightly to 2 1/2 inches for 6 shots (3R + 3L), still not brilliant for 25 yards.



At least this time, the impressions on the wad petals were even all round (and none were chopped off!), showing that the ball-bearing remained centred in the bore.



At that point I gave up, assuming that no better than 2 1/2 inch groups at 25 yards (5-inches at 50 yds, 10-inches at 100 yards) could be obtained from a round ball under any circumstances.

Always happy to be proven wrong at any time, though!


...and please don't burr up telling me it was dangerous to shoot hardened steel ball bearings in pommie shotguns. I already know I'm a little crazy, but with enough common sense (or blind luck!) to have survived thus far!

After giving up on round balls, and suffering through some very unhappy experiences with the RC4 Palla slugs, I discovered the Rio Bala Blindada and killed a few boars, and a full-grown buffalo cow with one shot, for some degree of vindication.
Read about it here if you have the time.



All this was because our importers won't bring Rottweil Brennekes into Australia, and now the Rio Bala Blindada is no longer available! The flat of ammo I ordered never arrived! Only one box of 10 left... (sigh)

So like others here, I am now concentrating on the Nitro Paradox option, as I probably should have been doing all along!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #381076 - 09/12/23 06:02 PM

There is the Lyman sabot slug, weighing 525gr. in pure lead and fits in a variety of shot cups.
For my round ball loads, I used only 682" round balls, most likely pure lead.
I got very good results using the gas check off the bottom of spent trap wads WWAA12 white wads mostly, to centre the ball in the barrel. I also used one cup-down on the power charge, with felt and/or card wads in between, to take up the requisite space for a proper folded crimp. I used only AA trap cases for my loads.
In Taofladermause's U-tube testing, their main trouble with various slugs was with getting a poor gas seal, and/or collapsing wad columns.
I didn't have this trouble, as my wad columns were solid wads, hard card under the ball holding cup, then 1/2" to 3/8" fiber wad, then another cup, cup down on the smokeless powder.
With black powder loads, I had one or more hard cards on the powder, then the cup under the ball, and a folded crimp.
My shotgun was made in 1900, or 1898, so was not back-bored and was actually a little tight, at .728".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #381081 - 10/12/23 12:53 AM

The round ball is definitely an enigma.

Marrkai's results I'm afraid w/ lead or even steel tho I've never used steel are probably about the best most guys can hope for.

I got 4 1/2 inches at 20 using a 5/8" drill bit, a hand drill and a block of wood for a mold. Just winged it, no special attempt made to really get the mold depth the same.

From an old thread:

"Made up a few of Daryl's wooden mould slugs. Didn't make much effort, just ran a 5/8" bit in and loaded them up.

After the first batch was too heavy, I guessed at a shallower hole and got it pretty well with the slugs averaging a little under 1 ounce. I separated the heaviest for a 3-shot group from standing up at 20 paces. Results as follows.

Group is 4 1/2 inches so not great but the barrel has no sights, sporting only a brass screw I thread into it when I cut it from 30" down to 26. So yes, it's cylinder bored. Didn't want to risk a choke on one of these wheelweights going thru at an angle.

Anyway, the shots were not wild as they indicated an actual grouping which I found interesting. I have a setup on one of my anvil stumps I use to zero shotguns, bending the barrels to address POI issues. But the barrel shoot shot pretty much on so I didn't monkey with it.

I backed up the target with a 5 gallon bucket of water but that didn't stop the slug.

First attempt on left. They must go somewhere around 2 ounces. The idea came to mind that a guy could pour one long deep hole and then cut the slugs to length for more accurate weights but I don't have a dipper big enough."



And the group:



This RB thing is something I'd like to pursue.

For truly WILD shots on or more likely OFF the paper, try one or two .600 round balls in the 12 bore. Those things make Kipling's Martini tossing "arf of yer bullets goin' wide in the ditch" a benchrest champion.

At any rate, back to centering RB's.

These here came to mind, what we call "finishing washers" and they come in steel or aluminum or bronze. My have some potential for preventing gas blowby and eliminating what the old timers called "windage".



--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #381087 - 10/12/23 04:39 AM

I also had "some" luck with my 13 bore straight rifled barrel, using a 16 bore ball, with a 14 ounce denim cloth patch, loaded in brass cases.
The groove dia. in the barrel with the standard 16 bore chamber, was .705" which is 13 bore. The thin brass case allowed loading a true .662" 16 bore 1 ounce round ball, with the denim patching, over 2 1/8" hard cards and 85gr. 2F GOEX.
My shooting with this combination was at 28 yards, from an elbow rest on the bench and the group went 2 1/2", strung out in a line.
Seems to me, long time ago, I posted all of this here, on the site when I had a photobucket account.
I also posted a picture of the 12 bore round ball load COMPONENTS using cut-off 12 bore steel shot wads, as the bottom of the wad was nicely cupped to hold the ball, while the bottom gas seal was stronger than the trap wad gas seal I had been using.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #381102 - 10/12/23 08:16 PM

Quote:


All this was because our importers won't bring Rottweil Brennekes into Australia, and now the Rio Bala Blindada is no longer available! The flat of ammo I ordered never arrived! Only one box of 10 left... (sigh)




I'd used loaded Brenneckes in the past.Mightveven have some lost ones somewhere still.

I knew they'd been unavailable, then were available again.

But alas if they're not.

Why on Earth does the importer refuse to import any? Who is the importer? Can Brennecke "bullets" be purchased, imported, and reloaded? Or simply not available as non loaded ammo "bullets"?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #381110 - 10/12/23 10:29 PM

Well, I'll be buggered!
Just did a search for Brenneke solids on sale in Australia and found Rebel advertising 4 boxes left!

Rottweil Extra Line 12 Gauge Ammunition 3" 1-3/8 oz Brenneke Solid Slug (5pk)

Bet they're gone by the time I get to Brizzy next!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #381113 - 10/12/23 11:53 PM

Quote:

Well, I'll be buggered!
Just did a search for Brenneke solids on sale in Australia and found Rebel advertising 4 boxes left!

Rottweil Extra Line 12 Gauge Ammunition 3" 1-3/8 oz Brenneke Solid Slug (5pk)

Bet they're gone by the time I get to Brizzy next!




Can some nice NE member buy them. If they don't want them, hold them in reserve.

Loaded ammo is hard. Can't be posted anymore.

I'd still like to get some 6.5x54 M-S loaded ammo Ozhunter imported, I'd agreed to buy some. But all the ammo left was sold to a gunshop in Sydney. If they've still got some, I'd buy some. Unfortunately probably ridiculously marked up now.

***

20 rounds, not a lot for testing and using.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #381123 - 11/12/23 04:22 AM

Gualandi slugs are available. I bought a package from an Alberta outfit at our last gun show. These are VERY accurate in my rifled 12 bore Mossberg.

Midway sells them in the States, in 12 and 16 gauge.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1013112283?pid=553339

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #381169 - 13/12/23 05:02 AM

Already mentioned here? Not sure, so ...

https://www.thefield.co.uk/reviews/gun-reviews/holland-holland-paradox

Holland & Holland Paradox
Michael Yardley
November 6, 2019

A weapon for all seasons – or a wide variety of quarry, at least – Michael Yardley finds this rifle-cum-shotgun a wonderful thing, performing well on both the rifle range and clays

Holland & Holland Paradox
This Paradox is finely finished with a colour case hardened action and sparse scroll engraving.

Product Overview
Holland & Holland Paradox
Product:Holland & Holland ParadoxManufacturer:Holland & HollandPrice as reviewed:Ł108,000.00
Intended for both shot and special bullets, the Holland & Holland Paradox can bring home peafowl for the pot and shoot a leopard attacking cattle. Michael Yardley finds himself impressed by the rifle-cum-shotgun.

For best London guns from the golden era, read about a pair of Holland & Holland Royal sidelocks from 1906.

HOLLAND & HOLLAND PARADOX
This gun is not just different but rather wonderful. It is a Holland & Holland Paradox 12-bore intended for both shot and special bullets, allowing its user to bag birds for the pot and deal with soft-skinned big game as well. If you had a need – as people once did – to bring home peafowl for supper and shoot a leopard killing villagers’ cattle, this is the gun for you. It is built on a round action, back-action, sidelock (there is also a square bar Royal model) and weighs in at a comparatively light 7lb 7oz with 28in barrels. It carries a substantial price tag of Ł108,000, including VAT, and the Royal version is Ł138,000 with the Treasury’s slice added.

The Paradox test gun is built on the 1885 patent 7564 of Colonel George Vincent Fosbery VC, who also invented an intriguing recoil operated ‘automatic’ revolver. Both, though slightly eccentric, achieved significant commercial success. Holland & Holland (H&H) bought a licence for the manufacture of the Paradox for Ł1,000 and produced them from 1886-99 (Webley made his automatic revolver from 1901-24). The Paradox was first built in a variety of bore sizes, initially as a hammer gun, later as a back action hammerless design. They were also made by Westley Richards in the new century (and marketed as the Explora). H&H continued to make Paradox guns until 1931, their manufacture recommenced in the early 2000s after a redesign and development exercise led by H&H technical director Russel Wilkin.

The test gun is deceptively traditional in appearance and finely finished with a colour case hardened action and fairly sparse scroll engraving. ‘Holland & Holland’ is neatly inlaid in gold on the forward part of the action, the gold lettering and colour hardening creating a pleasant contrast. The rounded form of the action, also notable for its short lock plates, works well aesthetically (the locks themselves are full seven-pin back-action sidelocks). Long, rounded triggers please the eye, too. The well-figured and neatly hand chequered stock (made to measure on any new order) has a 14˝in length of pull and a conventional but excellent straight-hand form. The fore-end is surprisingly slim and has an Anson release button. Both butt and fore-end are oil finished to high standard.

Holland & Holland Paradox
Apart from a folding leaf sight on its rib, the Paradox looks much like a conventional shotgun.

Examine the gun, which at first glance looks like a conventional side-by-side, and you discover a neat, quite shallow, back-sight block with two elegant V-form leaves on the rib of the chopperlump barrels. There is a slightly raised gold foresight at the muzzles and rifling (the distinguishing characteristic of a Paradox where typically the final couple of inches are shallow rifled). 2ľin (70mm) chambers and .736in diameter bores are intended to shoot both shot cartridges and the mid-velocity 740 grain Fosbery bullet.

Few designs have a more colourful history. The inventor, Fosbery, was an Eton educated, British Indian Army officer. Acting as a volunteer at 31, he won a VC on the North West Frontier in an action that would have done Harry Flashman or Richard Sharpe credit. He retired from the Army in 1877 as a Lieutenant Colonel and turned his not inconsiderable energies to creating two of the most idiosyncratic firearms of the Golden Era.

Sir Samuel Baker – legendary hunter, big character and contemporary of Fosbery – noted of the gun: “The Paradox, invented by Colonel Fosbery and manufactured by Messrs Holland and Holland of Bond Street is a most useful weapon, as it combines the shotgun with a rifle that is wonderfully accurate within a range of 100 yards… Although the powder charge is not sufficient to produce a high express velocity, the penetration and shock are most formidable, as the bullet is of hardened metal, and it retains its figure even after striking a tough hide and bones.”

The Paradox saw most service in the jungles of Imperial India, but in World War One Paradox guns found a new purpose as potential Zeppelin busters. A dozen were bought by the newly formed Royal Naval Air Service, and H&H developed the Holland Buckingham .707in Incendiary shell to ignite the enemy airships’ hydrogen. Definitely a rippin’ yarn to be written there.

TECHNICAL
This Paradox is built on the Holland & Holland Round Action, as noted. It is a back-action gun, meaning the main springs lie rearwards, which necessitates less material being taken from the action bar. Back-action locks are commonly used in rifles and sidelock over-and-unders. The modern H&H Round Action, which has a significant amount of high-tech machine work used to create it, is a descendent of the H&H Dominion (although the latter is outwardly distinguished by its leg-of-mutton locks). These were guns that were intended for use abroad and developed a reputation for sturdiness (not that the conventional H&H sidelock is in any way lacking in this department). In the modern era, an updated back-action gun in round bar form was reintroduced as the ‘Field Model’ and renamed the ‘Round Action’ quite recently. The Paradox, meantime, was redeveloped by H&H’s technical director Russell Wilkin and manufactured from 2004.

SHOOTING IMPRESSIONS
I shot the Paradox with Chris Bird, H&H’s chief instructor, at the firm’s recently refurbished Northwood ground. We started on the rifle range. I have shot the Paradox before and knew that it did not have quite the bite of a big Nitro Express rifle. Shooting standing, unsupported at 30yd – the range the gun is best suited for – I had no difficulty in putting three shots into a golf ball cluster. The recoil was noticeable but not fierce, a comparative pussycat compared to a .458 or .500. Moving to clays, the Paradox, which is muzzle heavy by its nature, shot much better than expected. Nothing was missed by either of us at modest range and when a challenging crosser was put out, the sort of bird you might think needed a bit of lead and choke, the Paradox dealt with it efficiently (Chris shot the lot, I missed a couple). Overall, it was more practically accurate as a short-range rifle than expected and far better as a shotgun. In a modern context it would be ideal for boar.

HOLLAND & HOLLAND PARADOX 12-BORE

♦ RRP: Ł108,000
♦ Holland & Holland, 33 Bruton Street, London W1J 6HH.
♦ 020 7499 4411
♦ hollandandholland.com

The writer would like to thank Chris Bird and Allan Utermark of H&H for their help with this article.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #381170 - 13/12/23 05:26 AM

I need to get a rifled choke tube for my Carlson Remington 870 barrel.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #381179 - 13/12/23 06:43 AM

Some of those rifled screw-in chokes shoot very well, others not so hot.
Much depends, I assume, on the dimensions of the slug and/or cup wad being shot.
In the tests I've seen on-line, the Lyman "waisted" sabot slug did very well.
The loads I saw were the 525gr. sabot slug, 36gr. Longshot, plastic wad, 1,430fps av.
The 1 ounce Lyman Foster slug was doing about the same speed, with 34gr. Long shot.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #381188 - 13/12/23 11:11 AM

I bought a pair of Remchoke rifled choke tubes about 20 years ago, with the intention of doing something silly if I couldn't find a good SxS 12-bore Paradox or bore-gun.

The immediate problem was that the mouth of the forcing cone was way over-size, meaning that if a 12-bore barrel is .729 internally, the mouth of the forcing cone was perhaps .740 or more, and the rifled section was ~.729. This meant that the tubes I had intended to use (from defunct CBC single-barrel shotguns) would have needed to be reamed out by at least 10 thou full-length to allow the forcing cone to work as Colonel Fosbery intended!

So either Remington pumpies and semi-autos have seriously oversized 12-bore barrels, or Remington were so risk-averse with these removable chokes that they virtually defeated the purpose.

Thankfully I acquired the Holloway Paradox in time to prevent the silliness. I would have procrastinated for a looong time anyway...

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #381206 - 14/12/23 12:51 AM

I cannot speak for the pressure of his handloads but this vid shows some pretty impressive results with .69 cal RB's & rifled choke tubes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp-7y-_kv9c

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #381211 - 14/12/23 04:28 AM

Tony, the back-boring or enlarging of the normally .729" 12 bore, up to .740" appears to be common today.
The rifled barrel of my Mossberg M835 had a .724" groove diameter, however the shotgun barrel's bore is .735".
This gun, "came" with 2 barrels, one 24" and rifled, while the other was 28" with rib, screw-in chokes, both for steel and lead and was smooth.
The rifled barrel shoots very well with 1 ounce 3" Winchester Fosters @ 1,750fps & 2 3/4" Cdn. made Challenger Ammo with 496gr. Gualandi DGS slugs at 1,610fps.

About the video on .690" ball casting and shooting. I have single cavity Tanner moulds, now made by Jeff's son since he died, also have a large casting sprue. Instead of side cutters, which the fellow called flush cutters, I use the pliers type of wire strippers. Using one of the small cut-outs, I cut in about 1/2 way through the sprue then twist or rotate the ball. This ends up cutting completely through the sprue's stem and leaves the tiniest little tit sticking up. One tap with the jaws of the cutter and it is now flush with the top of the ball- which then appears perfectly round, without the flat spot left by side (flush) cutters.
33gr. Long Shot is not maximum. I see data for up to 36gr. with a 525gr. sabot slug in a field wad.
As the big guy said, these work best.
I haven't watched the video all the way through yet, but expect the speed to be in the 1,400fps range.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #381222 - 14/12/23 10:40 AM

Sharpshooter is gone now but very similar gang molds, extensively proof tested by Wade are now made by Marty's Arms.

Note the selection of RB's.

https://www.martysarms.com/

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #381225 - 14/12/23 01:01 PM

Yes- these were interesting. Can't help but wonder how they would fly.
https://www.martysarms.com/cdn/shop/products/x-shot_1024x1024@2x.jpg?v=1669068752

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1414
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #381245 - 15/12/23 03:41 AM

Quote:

Yes- these were interesting. Can't help but wonder how they would fly.
https://www.martysarms.com/cdn/shop/products/x-shot_1024x1024@2x.jpg?v=1669068752



I'd bet those X type make a most appealing whistling sound in flight.
- Mike


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 3DogMike]
      #381246 - 15/12/23 04:17 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Yes- these were interesting. Can't help but wonder how they would fly.
https://www.martysarms.com/cdn/shop/products/x-shot_1024x1024@2x.jpg?v=1669068752



I'd bet those X type make a most appealing whistling sound in flight.
- Mike




To you both...

That's for sure!!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8734
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #381271 - 16/12/23 06:22 AM

irrc, Kynoch had a similar looking bullet before the war, called "lethal ball"? could be this was hollow made from two half pressed together.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
grandveneur
.400 member


Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1297
Loc: France / Germany
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: lancaster]
      #381275 - 16/12/23 07:12 AM

Thats right, called "lethal" bullet but I mean loaded by Eley, production discontinued 1957. Kynoch has also a "destructor" bullet.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: grandveneur]
      #381280 - 16/12/23 09:30 AM

These are quite solid, as the sprue cuttoff can be seen on one of the "bands". That is a good location for the sprue as a swipe with a file and it's perfectly symmetrical.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2387
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #381281 - 16/12/23 09:48 AM

Daryl, you mentioned Flush Cutters before, they are a type side cutter where one outside face is completely flat with a very sharp edge, they leave nothing behind when cutting. We use them for cable ties and they are great if you do plastic models etc. If using them with bullet molding they will leave almost nothing behind if anything.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
lancaster
.470 member


Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8734
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #381296 - 16/12/23 11:26 PM

here they are, 1926 ICI Eley Kynoch catalog





the lethal bullet looks similar, my guess the rings around were a little bit oversize to give a tight fit in the barrel than also allow to pass the choke bore. probably with the side effekt of lead in the barrel build up quickly.looks like the bullet was hollow with some cross struts inside to make it lighter than a common round ball so I think two half were pressed together.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #381298 - 17/12/23 12:17 AM

Quote:

Daryl, you mentioned Flush Cutters before, they are a type side cutter where one outside face is completely flat with a very sharp edge, they leave nothing behind when cutting. We use them for cable ties and they are great if you do plastic models etc. If using them with bullet molding they will leave almost nothing behind if anything.

Matt.




Correct.

I use the ones Wade recommends when casting buckshot from "Do-It" sinker molds. They get right up to the pellet unlike side cutters. I did break a set once tho they are so cheap, no big deal.

BTW those "Do-It" molds are gang molds one side making a .31" cal pellet and the other a .368"/9.3mm pellet. Using Wade's methods I get excellent dense patterns. Early on I had one load of his pressure tested and it ran ~500 psi high. Since then he's backed off. Loading shotgun ammo w/o a known pressure combination is "At Your Own Risk" as switching combinations can stack tolerance and pressures but we have access to pressure testing so that helps.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (17/12/23 01:00 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #381315 - 17/12/23 05:37 AM

Could be the banded cast ball is to make it safe in all chokes, just like the raised ribs on Brenneke and Foster slugs.

I take a grinder to the side cutters jaws, so they cut closer than stock side cutters. I don't call them flush cutters- someone else coined that word.
The ground side cutters cut flush with a flat surface and are also better for cutting (my) toe nails. LOL

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #381316 - 17/12/23 05:54 AM

Quote:

Could be the banded cast ball is to make it safe in all chokes, just like the raised ribs on Brenneke and Foster slugs.

I take a grinder to the side cutters jaws, so they cut closer than stock side cutters. I don't call them flush cutters- someone else coined that word.
The ground side cutters cut flush with a flat surface and are also better for cutting (my) toe nails. LOL




That makes send. I seems I remember reading that the ribs in theory stop veering caused by one directional spinning as the ball leaves the barrel. Whether it works or not, no idea.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #381321 - 17/12/23 10:35 AM

Taofladermause has marked the bases of "rifled" slugs and with high speed cameras allowing slow motion viewing, show that the slugs do spin, but it is likely not due to the grooves outside the barrel, but when inside. As well, the spin might also be due to the boring/reaming and polishing of the barrels, leaving a memory if direction turning of the laps, etc.
Due to the shock wave form super sonic flight, there really isn't much 'air' in hard contact with the grooves in the first place. AS well normal rifled slugs are almost smooth sided by the time they leave the muzzle. Those I have recovered from snow were, even from a cylinder bored gun.
Due to the softness of the slugs (virtually pure lead) the slugging up(obturation)of the slug irons out the grooves during it's passage out the tube.
As well, there is a solid band at the bottom of the slug that runs all the way around the slug, which would prevent directional air passage from the grooves off the base. This area of the slug, is usually slugged up completely and smooth.
The only real grooves left are at the nose and running back, maybe 1/3rd of the slug's length.
Like most rifles, there are loads (& slugs) they prefer over others.
The harder they are driven, the smoother they should be. A 3" load pushing a 1 ounce slug out at 1,750fps, is much more likely to be distorted in this manner, than one of the shorty shelled slugs, however with those initial obturation in the oversized front 1/2 of the chamber, then hitting the forcing cone, would have an ironing effect on them as well, even though they are running only 1,200fps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2387
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #381323 - 17/12/23 01:04 PM

Daryl, flush cutter is the actual official name of that type of side cutter.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26516
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #381337 - 18/12/23 04:24 AM

OK - first I've heard the name. Makes sense, though. I guess we are converting side cutters into flush cutters.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)



Extra information
0 registered and 17 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  tinker 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 4258

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved