Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2387
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #380938 - 05/12/23 08:27 AM

Yeah thanks Daryl, once I have it up and going I will try and do a post with some pictures.

Yes definitely 12 Bore, regulated for 750 grain bullet and 1 1/8 ounce of shot.

28" was the standard length for most makers at the time but 30" was not uncommon so I guess this is in between, it certainly swings and balances nicely.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
85lc
.375 member


Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 915
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #380941 - 05/12/23 10:52 AM

Guys, This discussion has been very informative. I had understood that the paradox was really a small and large game gun. I have used my Cogswell & Harrison for quail and ploan to use it with Fosbery style projectiles for deer (just no buffalo in Georgia).

The Westley Magnum gun that I saw was in the shotgun weight range (just handling and not weighing) and chambered for 2 3/4" shells.

--------------------
RB


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gatsby
.375 member


Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 85lc]
      #380965 - 06/12/23 03:52 AM

Westley SMEs didn't weigh much more than 7.5 lbs. unfortunate to the shooter.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2387
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #381034 - 08/12/23 08:17 AM

Tony, a bore gun only trip to the Back Country would be fantastic, I have been wondering about how the projectiles would work on Buffalo and Scrub Bulls. I am currently reading the book on the Paradox which is an excellent read:

https://www.bundukibooks.com.au/Paradox-Vol-1-Baker-Lake-p/bt17.htm

In it there are a significant number of excerpts from magazine articles written at the peak period of Paradox use by sportsman of the day, and one in particular was very interesting in that the author states that the Hollow Point Fosberry was much more effective than the solid, after having tried both on a significant number animals.

Powder coating is another method that some of the guys are using to coat lubricate their projectiles. The Powder Coater that we use can spray Teflon which of course has a very low coefficient of friction.
I will look into and report back.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #381037 - 08/12/23 10:25 AM

Lyman sells a moly lubricant spray that works very well as a bullet coating. I spray my cast air bug bullets with it, along with my bullet moulds to prevent least sticking. It drys almost immediately to leave an extremely thin coating.
I sprayed some .450 gr. bullets for my .50/70 for use with smokeless powder. It worked very well, without any leading.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2387
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #381038 - 08/12/23 10:58 AM

Thanks Daryl, that sounds worth trying. I have found it on the Lyman site, I will get some.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #381057 - 09/12/23 07:05 AM

Great thread.

This short vid here shows the challenges and failures and successes w/ RB's in smooth and rifle tubes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnQHEZ_w0Fc

By the way, Wade here has done some absolutely phenomenal works w/ buckshot. I found his vids some years ago and correspond with him from time to time. Great guy. Really amazing stuff & using his principles I've been able to duplicate his performance. He's spent a lot less time working on RB loads and slugs and even there has done some great work.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #381062 - 09/12/23 10:03 AM

Quite interesting using a 14 bore ball & similar concept to the cups I used.
With the round ball loads I was using, Rod, I was getting 1 1/2" to 2" at 50yards from a SxS smoothbore. I didn't use the slower powders, but did use SR7624 and SR4756 along with black powder, 7 drams of that.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #381067 - 09/12/23 03:04 PM

Daryl has always done much better than me with round balls, and we have been 'round this buoy on these forums before!
Nevertheless, permit me to retell my earlier experiences here, if only for a laugh!

About 20 years ago I decided to experiment with round balls in the 12-bore. I started with pure lead 12-bore balls from the muzzle-loading suppliers, but quickly learned that they deform in the bore on firing, and fly all over the place. Shooting 16-bore pure lead balls in a 12-bore shot-cup was the next step, however results were just as bad.

Then I got the notion that solid steel balls would not deform (!), so I obtained a couple dozen polished steel ball bearings from the mob that rebuild automotive CV-joints, and loaded them up in AA-wads and shot them out of a cylinder-bore double I had lying around. Here is the result:



The two high ones were from the clean, slightly oily (?) barrel, the remainder went into about 3 1/2 inches, at 25 yards!

Turns out the wad was trying to crawl past the ball in the bore, pushing the ball off line before it exited the muzzle. Check out the recovered wads, very uneven damage to the shot-cup petals. Some petals were chopped off completely!



So...! The next step was to try to center the ball in the shot-cup. I cut the over-powder part off a few 16-bore wads, inverted them in the bottom of the 12-bore shot-cup, and dropped the ball-bearing on top. The results improved slightly to 2 1/2 inches for 6 shots (3R + 3L), still not brilliant for 25 yards.



At least this time, the impressions on the wad petals were even all round (and none were chopped off!), showing that the ball-bearing remained centred in the bore.



At that point I gave up, assuming that no better than 2 1/2 inch groups at 25 yards (5-inches at 50 yds, 10-inches at 100 yards) could be obtained from a round ball under any circumstances.

Always happy to be proven wrong at any time, though!


...and please don't burr up telling me it was dangerous to shoot hardened steel ball bearings in pommie shotguns. I already know I'm a little crazy, but with enough common sense (or blind luck!) to have survived thus far!

After giving up on round balls, and suffering through some very unhappy experiences with the RC4 Palla slugs, I discovered the Rio Bala Blindada and killed a few boars, and a full-grown buffalo cow with one shot, for some degree of vindication.
Read about it here if you have the time.



All this was because our importers won't bring Rottweil Brennekes into Australia, and now the Rio Bala Blindada is no longer available! The flat of ammo I ordered never arrived! Only one box of 10 left... (sigh)

So like others here, I am now concentrating on the Nitro Paradox option, as I probably should have been doing all along!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #381076 - 09/12/23 06:02 PM

There is the Lyman sabot slug, weighing 525gr. in pure lead and fits in a variety of shot cups.
For my round ball loads, I used only 682" round balls, most likely pure lead.
I got very good results using the gas check off the bottom of spent trap wads WWAA12 white wads mostly, to centre the ball in the barrel. I also used one cup-down on the power charge, with felt and/or card wads in between, to take up the requisite space for a proper folded crimp. I used only AA trap cases for my loads.
In Taofladermause's U-tube testing, their main trouble with various slugs was with getting a poor gas seal, and/or collapsing wad columns.
I didn't have this trouble, as my wad columns were solid wads, hard card under the ball holding cup, then 1/2" to 3/8" fiber wad, then another cup, cup down on the smokeless powder.
With black powder loads, I had one or more hard cards on the powder, then the cup under the ball, and a folded crimp.
My shotgun was made in 1900, or 1898, so was not back-bored and was actually a little tight, at .728".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #381081 - 10/12/23 12:53 AM

The round ball is definitely an enigma.

Marrkai's results I'm afraid w/ lead or even steel tho I've never used steel are probably about the best most guys can hope for.

I got 4 1/2 inches at 20 using a 5/8" drill bit, a hand drill and a block of wood for a mold. Just winged it, no special attempt made to really get the mold depth the same.

From an old thread:

"Made up a few of Daryl's wooden mould slugs. Didn't make much effort, just ran a 5/8" bit in and loaded them up.

After the first batch was too heavy, I guessed at a shallower hole and got it pretty well with the slugs averaging a little under 1 ounce. I separated the heaviest for a 3-shot group from standing up at 20 paces. Results as follows.

Group is 4 1/2 inches so not great but the barrel has no sights, sporting only a brass screw I thread into it when I cut it from 30" down to 26. So yes, it's cylinder bored. Didn't want to risk a choke on one of these wheelweights going thru at an angle.

Anyway, the shots were not wild as they indicated an actual grouping which I found interesting. I have a setup on one of my anvil stumps I use to zero shotguns, bending the barrels to address POI issues. But the barrel shoot shot pretty much on so I didn't monkey with it.

I backed up the target with a 5 gallon bucket of water but that didn't stop the slug.

First attempt on left. They must go somewhere around 2 ounces. The idea came to mind that a guy could pour one long deep hole and then cut the slugs to length for more accurate weights but I don't have a dipper big enough."



And the group:



This RB thing is something I'd like to pursue.

For truly WILD shots on or more likely OFF the paper, try one or two .600 round balls in the 12 bore. Those things make Kipling's Martini tossing "arf of yer bullets goin' wide in the ditch" a benchrest champion.

At any rate, back to centering RB's.

These here came to mind, what we call "finishing washers" and they come in steel or aluminum or bronze. My have some potential for preventing gas blowby and eliminating what the old timers called "windage".



--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #381087 - 10/12/23 04:39 AM

I also had "some" luck with my 13 bore straight rifled barrel, using a 16 bore ball, with a 14 ounce denim cloth patch, loaded in brass cases.
The groove dia. in the barrel with the standard 16 bore chamber, was .705" which is 13 bore. The thin brass case allowed loading a true .662" 16 bore 1 ounce round ball, with the denim patching, over 2 1/8" hard cards and 85gr. 2F GOEX.
My shooting with this combination was at 28 yards, from an elbow rest on the bench and the group went 2 1/2", strung out in a line.
Seems to me, long time ago, I posted all of this here, on the site when I had a photobucket account.
I also posted a picture of the 12 bore round ball load COMPONENTS using cut-off 12 bore steel shot wads, as the bottom of the wad was nicely cupped to hold the ball, while the bottom gas seal was stronger than the trap wad gas seal I had been using.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #381102 - 10/12/23 08:16 PM

Quote:


All this was because our importers won't bring Rottweil Brennekes into Australia, and now the Rio Bala Blindada is no longer available! The flat of ammo I ordered never arrived! Only one box of 10 left... (sigh)




I'd used loaded Brenneckes in the past.Mightveven have some lost ones somewhere still.

I knew they'd been unavailable, then were available again.

But alas if they're not.

Why on Earth does the importer refuse to import any? Who is the importer? Can Brennecke "bullets" be purchased, imported, and reloaded? Or simply not available as non loaded ammo "bullets"?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #381110 - 10/12/23 10:29 PM

Well, I'll be buggered!
Just did a search for Brenneke solids on sale in Australia and found Rebel advertising 4 boxes left!

Rottweil Extra Line 12 Gauge Ammunition 3" 1-3/8 oz Brenneke Solid Slug (5pk)

Bet they're gone by the time I get to Brizzy next!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #381113 - 10/12/23 11:53 PM

Quote:

Well, I'll be buggered!
Just did a search for Brenneke solids on sale in Australia and found Rebel advertising 4 boxes left!

Rottweil Extra Line 12 Gauge Ammunition 3" 1-3/8 oz Brenneke Solid Slug (5pk)

Bet they're gone by the time I get to Brizzy next!




Can some nice NE member buy them. If they don't want them, hold them in reserve.

Loaded ammo is hard. Can't be posted anymore.

I'd still like to get some 6.5x54 M-S loaded ammo Ozhunter imported, I'd agreed to buy some. But all the ammo left was sold to a gunshop in Sydney. If they've still got some, I'd buy some. Unfortunately probably ridiculously marked up now.

***

20 rounds, not a lot for testing and using.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #381123 - 11/12/23 04:22 AM

Gualandi slugs are available. I bought a package from an Alberta outfit at our last gun show. These are VERY accurate in my rifled 12 bore Mossberg.

Midway sells them in the States, in 12 and 16 gauge.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1013112283?pid=553339

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #381169 - 13/12/23 05:02 AM

Already mentioned here? Not sure, so ...

https://www.thefield.co.uk/reviews/gun-reviews/holland-holland-paradox

Holland & Holland Paradox
Michael Yardley
November 6, 2019

A weapon for all seasons – or a wide variety of quarry, at least – Michael Yardley finds this rifle-cum-shotgun a wonderful thing, performing well on both the rifle range and clays

Holland & Holland Paradox
This Paradox is finely finished with a colour case hardened action and sparse scroll engraving.

Product Overview
Holland & Holland Paradox
Product:Holland & Holland ParadoxManufacturer:Holland & HollandPrice as reviewed:£108,000.00
Intended for both shot and special bullets, the Holland & Holland Paradox can bring home peafowl for the pot and shoot a leopard attacking cattle. Michael Yardley finds himself impressed by the rifle-cum-shotgun.

For best London guns from the golden era, read about a pair of Holland & Holland Royal sidelocks from 1906.

HOLLAND & HOLLAND PARADOX
This gun is not just different but rather wonderful. It is a Holland & Holland Paradox 12-bore intended for both shot and special bullets, allowing its user to bag birds for the pot and deal with soft-skinned big game as well. If you had a need – as people once did – to bring home peafowl for supper and shoot a leopard killing villagers’ cattle, this is the gun for you. It is built on a round action, back-action, sidelock (there is also a square bar Royal model) and weighs in at a comparatively light 7lb 7oz with 28in barrels. It carries a substantial price tag of £108,000, including VAT, and the Royal version is £138,000 with the Treasury’s slice added.

The Paradox test gun is built on the 1885 patent 7564 of Colonel George Vincent Fosbery VC, who also invented an intriguing recoil operated ‘automatic’ revolver. Both, though slightly eccentric, achieved significant commercial success. Holland & Holland (H&H) bought a licence for the manufacture of the Paradox for £1,000 and produced them from 1886-99 (Webley made his automatic revolver from 1901-24). The Paradox was first built in a variety of bore sizes, initially as a hammer gun, later as a back action hammerless design. They were also made by Westley Richards in the new century (and marketed as the Explora). H&H continued to make Paradox guns until 1931, their manufacture recommenced in the early 2000s after a redesign and development exercise led by H&H technical director Russel Wilkin.

The test gun is deceptively traditional in appearance and finely finished with a colour case hardened action and fairly sparse scroll engraving. ‘Holland & Holland’ is neatly inlaid in gold on the forward part of the action, the gold lettering and colour hardening creating a pleasant contrast. The rounded form of the action, also notable for its short lock plates, works well aesthetically (the locks themselves are full seven-pin back-action sidelocks). Long, rounded triggers please the eye, too. The well-figured and neatly hand chequered stock (made to measure on any new order) has a 14½in length of pull and a conventional but excellent straight-hand form. The fore-end is surprisingly slim and has an Anson release button. Both butt and fore-end are oil finished to high standard.

Holland & Holland Paradox
Apart from a folding leaf sight on its rib, the Paradox looks much like a conventional shotgun.

Examine the gun, which at first glance looks like a conventional side-by-side, and you discover a neat, quite shallow, back-sight block with two elegant V-form leaves on the rib of the chopperlump barrels. There is a slightly raised gold foresight at the muzzles and rifling (the distinguishing characteristic of a Paradox where typically the final couple of inches are shallow rifled). 2¾in (70mm) chambers and .736in diameter bores are intended to shoot both shot cartridges and the mid-velocity 740 grain Fosbery bullet.

Few designs have a more colourful history. The inventor, Fosbery, was an Eton educated, British Indian Army officer. Acting as a volunteer at 31, he won a VC on the North West Frontier in an action that would have done Harry Flashman or Richard Sharpe credit. He retired from the Army in 1877 as a Lieutenant Colonel and turned his not inconsiderable energies to creating two of the most idiosyncratic firearms of the Golden Era.

Sir Samuel Baker – legendary hunter, big character and contemporary of Fosbery – noted of the gun: “The Paradox, invented by Colonel Fosbery and manufactured by Messrs Holland and Holland of Bond Street is a most useful weapon, as it combines the shotgun with a rifle that is wonderfully accurate within a range of 100 yards… Although the powder charge is not sufficient to produce a high express velocity, the penetration and shock are most formidable, as the bullet is of hardened metal, and it retains its figure even after striking a tough hide and bones.”

The Paradox saw most service in the jungles of Imperial India, but in World War One Paradox guns found a new purpose as potential Zeppelin busters. A dozen were bought by the newly formed Royal Naval Air Service, and H&H developed the Holland Buckingham .707in Incendiary shell to ignite the enemy airships’ hydrogen. Definitely a rippin’ yarn to be written there.

TECHNICAL
This Paradox is built on the Holland & Holland Round Action, as noted. It is a back-action gun, meaning the main springs lie rearwards, which necessitates less material being taken from the action bar. Back-action locks are commonly used in rifles and sidelock over-and-unders. The modern H&H Round Action, which has a significant amount of high-tech machine work used to create it, is a descendent of the H&H Dominion (although the latter is outwardly distinguished by its leg-of-mutton locks). These were guns that were intended for use abroad and developed a reputation for sturdiness (not that the conventional H&H sidelock is in any way lacking in this department). In the modern era, an updated back-action gun in round bar form was reintroduced as the ‘Field Model’ and renamed the ‘Round Action’ quite recently. The Paradox, meantime, was redeveloped by H&H’s technical director Russell Wilkin and manufactured from 2004.

SHOOTING IMPRESSIONS
I shot the Paradox with Chris Bird, H&H’s chief instructor, at the firm’s recently refurbished Northwood ground. We started on the rifle range. I have shot the Paradox before and knew that it did not have quite the bite of a big Nitro Express rifle. Shooting standing, unsupported at 30yd – the range the gun is best suited for – I had no difficulty in putting three shots into a golf ball cluster. The recoil was noticeable but not fierce, a comparative pussycat compared to a .458 or .500. Moving to clays, the Paradox, which is muzzle heavy by its nature, shot much better than expected. Nothing was missed by either of us at modest range and when a challenging crosser was put out, the sort of bird you might think needed a bit of lead and choke, the Paradox dealt with it efficiently (Chris shot the lot, I missed a couple). Overall, it was more practically accurate as a short-range rifle than expected and far better as a shotgun. In a modern context it would be ideal for boar.

HOLLAND & HOLLAND PARADOX 12-BORE

♦ RRP: £108,000
♦ Holland & Holland, 33 Bruton Street, London W1J 6HH.
♦ 020 7499 4411
♦ hollandandholland.com

The writer would like to thank Chris Bird and Allan Utermark of H&H for their help with this article.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: NitroX]
      #381170 - 13/12/23 05:26 AM

I need to get a rifled choke tube for my Carlson Remington 870 barrel.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #381179 - 13/12/23 06:43 AM

Some of those rifled screw-in chokes shoot very well, others not so hot.
Much depends, I assume, on the dimensions of the slug and/or cup wad being shot.
In the tests I've seen on-line, the Lyman "waisted" sabot slug did very well.
The loads I saw were the 525gr. sabot slug, 36gr. Longshot, plastic wad, 1,430fps av.
The 1 ounce Lyman Foster slug was doing about the same speed, with 34gr. Long shot.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #381188 - 13/12/23 11:11 AM

I bought a pair of Remchoke rifled choke tubes about 20 years ago, with the intention of doing something silly if I couldn't find a good SxS 12-bore Paradox or bore-gun.

The immediate problem was that the mouth of the forcing cone was way over-size, meaning that if a 12-bore barrel is .729 internally, the mouth of the forcing cone was perhaps .740 or more, and the rifled section was ~.729. This meant that the tubes I had intended to use (from defunct CBC single-barrel shotguns) would have needed to be reamed out by at least 10 thou full-length to allow the forcing cone to work as Colonel Fosbery intended!

So either Remington pumpies and semi-autos have seriously oversized 12-bore barrels, or Remington were so risk-averse with these removable chokes that they virtually defeated the purpose.

Thankfully I acquired the Holloway Paradox in time to prevent the silliness. I would have procrastinated for a looong time anyway...

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: Marrakai]
      #381206 - 14/12/23 12:51 AM

I cannot speak for the pressure of his handloads but this vid shows some pretty impressive results with .69 cal RB's & rifled choke tubes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp-7y-_kv9c

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #381211 - 14/12/23 04:28 AM

Tony, the back-boring or enlarging of the normally .729" 12 bore, up to .740" appears to be common today.
The rifled barrel of my Mossberg M835 had a .724" groove diameter, however the shotgun barrel's bore is .735".
This gun, "came" with 2 barrels, one 24" and rifled, while the other was 28" with rib, screw-in chokes, both for steel and lead and was smooth.
The rifled barrel shoots very well with 1 ounce 3" Winchester Fosters @ 1,750fps & 2 3/4" Cdn. made Challenger Ammo with 496gr. Gualandi DGS slugs at 1,610fps.

About the video on .690" ball casting and shooting. I have single cavity Tanner moulds, now made by Jeff's son since he died, also have a large casting sprue. Instead of side cutters, which the fellow called flush cutters, I use the pliers type of wire strippers. Using one of the small cut-outs, I cut in about 1/2 way through the sprue then twist or rotate the ball. This ends up cutting completely through the sprue's stem and leaves the tiniest little tit sticking up. One tap with the jaws of the cutter and it is now flush with the top of the ball- which then appears perfectly round, without the flat spot left by side (flush) cutters.
33gr. Long Shot is not maximum. I see data for up to 36gr. with a 525gr. sabot slug in a field wad.
As the big guy said, these work best.
I haven't watched the video all the way through yet, but expect the speed to be in the 1,400fps range.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #381222 - 14/12/23 10:40 AM

Sharpshooter is gone now but very similar gang molds, extensively proof tested by Wade are now made by Marty's Arms.

Note the selection of RB's.

https://www.martysarms.com/

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: 9.3x57]
      #381225 - 14/12/23 01:01 PM

Yes- these were interesting. Can't help but wonder how they would fly.
https://www.martysarms.com/cdn/shop/products/x-shot_1024x1024@2x.jpg?v=1669068752

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
3DogMike
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1414
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: 12-bore shotguns, paradox, Explora, rifles [Re: DarylS]
      #381245 - 15/12/23 03:41 AM

Quote:

Yes- these were interesting. Can't help but wonder how they would fly.
https://www.martysarms.com/cdn/shop/products/x-shot_1024x1024@2x.jpg?v=1669068752



I'd bet those X type make a most appealing whistling sound in flight.
- Mike


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)



Extra information
0 registered and 15 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  tinker 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 4254

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved