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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 592
Loc: Gettysburg
Smooth VS Rifled VS Paradox
      #344009 - 04/08/20 07:43 AM

In my lusting for a new gun, Ive come across a bunch of questions and a lot of confusion, with a few opposing views. While searching for info on Stopping rifles (especially from the BP age), Im seeing quite a few smoothbore guns in the BIG guns (4 and 8 Bore). I suppose (guessing) there were also smoothbore smaller guns but theyve been confused as shotguns. What Im hearing is since Stopping Guns were/are used at short ranges, then rifling isnt necessary and rifling adds to fowling, making re-loading more difficult for follow up shots.

The "fowling" makes sense, except Im not sure how many fast follow up shots would be necessary or possible in a Stopping Rifle. As cartridges replaced muzzleloaders Im trying to imagine how much fowling really mattered for repeated shots.

All of this is making me wonder how "wrong" Id be building a "gun" with smoothbores. Picture a 10ga SxS with a fixed or folding leaf rear and a large ivory bead. Of course everything is determined by how well it "patterens" with soild balls. On first sight it would appear to be a shotgun or at least shotgun-ish; but if solids print both barrels inside say 5 inches???

Is rifling necessary inside 40 yards?

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If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Smooth VS Rifled VS Paradox [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #344013 - 04/08/20 09:45 AM

Fouling is the build up of firing residue.
Fowling is the hunting of birds for meat or feathers or other bird-parts.

Fouling won't be an issue for you if you are using smokeless powder in a cartridge gun.

If you are going to use (most) anything besides roundball, you will want rifling so that your projectile is stable and tracks relatively straight through the animal.

Smooth bore rifles do exist, although they do not seem to have been tremendously popular in the era of the metallic cartridge.

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--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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EDELWEISS
.375 member


Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 592
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: Smooth VS Rifled VS Paradox [Re: tinker]
      #344014 - 04/08/20 10:07 AM

Quote:

Fouling is the build up of firing residue.
Fowling is the hunting of birds for meat or feathers or other bird-parts.




YES thank you




I'll be using round ball. I was thinking BP or BP Substitute as Im muzzleloader/BP cartridge kick right now. I also realize its all study in mental masturbation if I dont have a gun that will print on target and for that its more of a question of range than regulation

In the past, once I established an aiming point on a large background, I switched to using paper plates as targets. They are cheap and easily found. Ultimately two hits on the small cocktail plates are the goal for game like Wild Boar and larger.

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If it's not custom, it's just borrowed

Edited by EDELWEISS (04/08/20 10:10 AM)


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Smooth VS Rifled VS Paradox [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #344017 - 04/08/20 10:54 AM

Hits on cocktail sized paper plates at 25 yards or closer are entirely possible with 12 or 10 bore round balls from a smoothbore - a left and a right - or even pairs of shots.

IT will take time and experimentation to do that, but it is possible with cylinder bores & 2 sights. It is much more difficult if there is only the front sight. The use of chokes compounds the problems with load development - ie: ball sizes allowing passage through the choked portion of the bore, just as getting double barrels to regulate with single loads that shoot well from BOTH tubes. That in itself can sometimes be hair wrenchingly difficult.

However, once accomplished, it is done.

I once had an English made 12 bore SxS that I shortened the tubes to 26" (or was it 24"?) and worked on developing round ball loads for hunting deer & bears. Here, moose & buffalo (bison) require the use of rifles.

My loads, one with black powder and one with smokeless would keep 4 and once 6 shots in a row, alternating rights and lefts, on a 10"x12" steel plate hanging at 100 meters, shot offhand. I had a scope mounted on a base screwed into the top rib, just for load development.

In those days, open sights would have worked just as well.

I foolishly sold the gun to a fellow who wanted it only for shooting moose from his tree stand. He still uses it, every year, with the smokeless load developing 1,500fps with a .690" ball held in the cupped base of an AA12 trap wad (base removed from the wad & cupping the ball). A load of SA4756.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Longknife
.333 member


Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 256
Loc: Illinois
Re: Smooth VS Rifled VS Paradox [Re: DarylS]
      #344043 - 04/08/20 11:36 PM

I don't believe fouling was a concern for stopping rifles as the game was usually shot at very close range and reloading was not an option, especially in a m-loader. A gun bearer would carry an extra rifle to (hopefully) finish the prey if need be! I have shot many m-loading smoothbores, single and SXS, and found that at closer ranges they are very adequate for hunting bigger game. I limit my shots to 50 yards. I have also shot many SXS breechloaders with black powder and a round ball and find that the fouling does not affect accuracy. My Emil Echoldt smooth bore in this post had about 3 dozens black powder rounds fired with out so much as wet patch down the barrels. Oh yes it was DIRTY when I cleaned it but accuracy was not affected!!!....Ed

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=339285&an=0&page=0#Post339285

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Longknife


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EDELWEISS
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Reged: 22/11/05
Posts: 592
Loc: Gettysburg
Re: Smooth VS Rifled VS Paradox [Re: Longknife]
      #344048 - 05/08/20 10:05 AM

I agree that Stopping Rifles dont seem to be something that would require rapid reloading; they either worked or they didnt. A second gun or better yet a second shooter seems like a good idea.

I cant say for Stopping Rifles; but the vast majority of my ML experience is with a Brown Bess, and that DOES foul up pretty bad with repeated shots.

So if fouling isnt an issue (or the issue); what is the point or why are there smooth bore Stopping Rifles in both Muzzle loaders and cartridge versions?

--------------------
If it's not custom, it's just borrowed


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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Smooth VS Rifled VS Paradox [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #344053 - 05/08/20 12:14 PM

Fouling can be managed by proper loading and proper lubrication.
It's possible (and ideal) to have moist/soft fouling shot after shot with Black Powder - fouling that will not interfere with subsequent loading and firing.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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