Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Greener Bore Rifle

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)
49NORTH
.224 member


Reged: 16/12/17
Posts: 21
Loc: British Columbia Canada
Greener Bore Rifle
      #310856 - 23/01/18 08:57 AM

I'm almost ready for my first test run, I ended up ordering a ball mold of .775 dia, I cast some balls out of straight wheel weight lead for a start, hopefully they are soft enough to bump up,the ball goes though the right barrel with just a little push from a wooden dowel, the left barrel is not as tight. I have old never fired Kynoch thin wall brass that fits the chambers perfectly. There is a bit of an issue with a primer that will fit properly, I have settled on a small magnum pistol that fits snugly but is not deep enough for the pocket. When I dry fire them they push down into the pocket, I don't know if this will cause any problems.
The first test loads are 2 1/2 drams of 2F Goex black powder (all I can find where I live), 1 bottle cap shaped over powder card (harvested from a 8ga industrial shells), 2- 1/2 inch fiber wads, 1 of which is lubed, then a plain flat nitro card and a Ballistic Products plastic 10 ga gas seal for the ball to sit on then a little bit of COW to stabilize the ball ,then the whole thing is sealed with waterglass glue.
Any thought or comments?
I copied this from another site I posted it on, I felt this is a better place to get my questions answered.
The gun is a WW Greener 10 ga choke bored rifle, 10 ga at the breach and 12 ga at the muzzle, made circa 1887


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 49NORTH]
      #310859 - 23/01/18 10:10 AM

First I wonder what is the groove diameter of your chokes.
Next I wonder what you are using for lube on that lubed wad.

I'll guess you'll need more powder, also additional lube somewhere in that column.

How does that ball fit in the thin brass case?
Is it loose?
Would that ball fit in a paper or plastic case?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Wayne59
.400 member


Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #310860 - 23/01/18 10:16 AM

JMHO but a ball cast of pure wheel weight won't bump up to fit anything and your priming arrangement sounds worrisome.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
49NORTH
.224 member


Reged: 16/12/17
Posts: 21
Loc: British Columbia Canada
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: Wayne59]
      #310867 - 23/01/18 11:43 AM

I slugged the barrels and they are .775 at the muzzle.
I melted down some black gold lube and soaked my fiber wads in it.
To little powder? more is better?
Ball not real tight in the case, but not sloppy loose.
No other cases fit the chambers, I have tried,
Should I be using pure lead, will it bump up or swage if it needs to/
Should I try and change the primer to a 209 style?

Edited by 49NORTH (23/01/18 11:48 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: Wayne59]
      #310868 - 23/01/18 11:43 AM

WW is likely too hard, if of the cramp-on type. The stick-ons are usually pure lead, or zinc - do not use zinc.

Zinc are easily identified by colour and feel & many have a Z on them.

50/50 WW (Canadian) and pure lead is a good mix and will slug fine - about brinel 7 or so, maybe 8.

I would anneal that brass before firing it.

Small rifle primers have longer cups than small pistol primers. CCI450 magnums are what I would use, or Rem. 7 1/2's - both of these also have the thickest cups.

Good luck, have fun. OH - if you can find some steel shot wads, cutting the wads off just above the WEB, will give you a cup - that will hold an undersized ball perfectly centred in the bore.
With black powder, you should have a seal (over powder wad) between plastic and black powder, as the BP will melt the plastic and coat/foul the bore.
The use of a barrier wad will eliminate this. The plastic wad will 'take' the rifling and give the ball a spin, just fine.
I would first, soften the alloy, then try them for it.

A wad with a hole, like an overpowder card wad or cushion wad with central 3/8" hole (doesn't have to be deep), set on top of your powder wads, will also hold the ball in the middle of the bore, for improved accuracy.

Good luck, keep us posted.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #310870 - 23/01/18 11:50 AM

SRY- missed this. Well done.

"a Ballistic Products plastic 10 ga gas seal for the ball to sit"

I also think you need more powder. My WW Greener's book lists 10 drams, ie: 275gr. powder and a 677gr. ball. Since a pure lead 10 bore ball weighs 700gr., I assume this is a lead/tin mix, which is softer than WW, btw.

I really do think you should increase your charge of GOEX 2F to about 7 drams (191gr.) - or even that out to 200gr.

If 200gr. is too much for you, then at least try 150gr. 2F.That is only 5 1/2 drams, just over 1/2 a normal charge.

That little load you list will likely not develop enough pressure to obturate pure lead.

2 1/2drams (68gr.) is a light load for a 20 bore.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (23/01/18 11:54 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
MikeRowe
.333 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 478
Loc: Arkansas, USA
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #310877 - 23/01/18 01:09 PM

I would start on the light side with the load, somewhere along the line you indicated the twist rate, which made me think it's for a lighter load. Many of these rifles shot a surprisingly moderate charge, especially if the rifle is built to a lighter weight.

Make sure your lube is not petroleum based, it will turn the fouling to an asphaltum-like state if it is.

Try to get some Olde Eynsford powder if you can.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Wayne59
.400 member


Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: MikeRowe]
      #310878 - 23/01/18 01:35 PM

You need to loose the cushion wads. Even pure lead wont slug up to the bore with that many cushion wads. Are your cases originally Berdan primed or Boxer primed. If the priming is Berdan primed than you will have address this before using. You can order brass cases made for your gun from Rocky Mountain cartridge Co. If your cases are 2 5/8" or 2 3/4" you can order some from Track of the wolf for about 7.00 each. That will solve your primer problem.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: Wayne59]
      #310880 - 23/01/18 02:32 PM

My Purdey 20 bore rifle runs 2-1/2 drams, my lighter 16 bore rifles run 3 to 3-1/2 drams, the WR 16 bore rifle seems to like 5 drams.

Two and a half for a ten bore rifle is a waste of time and powder.

Also, don't bother with anything but known-good black powder lube in your black powder bore rifle loads. You'll do well with lots of it.
You want a soft and pliable -even moist- fouling for consistent shot-to-shot performance.
Leave it dry and you'll frag those wad cups, killing any chance of accurate groups.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 49NORTH]
      #310901 - 24/01/18 04:58 AM

Quote:

I slugged the barrels and they are .775 at the muzzle.
I melted down some black gold lube and soaked my fiber wads in it.
To little powder? more is better?
Ball not real tight in the case, but not sloppy loose.
No other cases fit the chambers, I have tried,
Should I be using pure lead, will it bump up or swage if it needs to/
Should I try and change the primer to a 209 style?




I assume this is groove dia. with what bore dia.?

Yes - more powder in a light, rifled choke gun - likely more in the 10 bore shotshell range - 4 to 4 1/2 drams, which is 110gr. to 123gr.

Pure lead is more likely to obturate than ANY other mix.

The Lyman BP Gold is a good BP lube, worked for me in ctg. as well as for bullets in a long barreled flint lock rifle.

Good suggestions on the new brass by the guys, however I'd likely try the small rifle magnum primers first, if the brass you have is OK.

I would not think the brass is set for Berdan primers (CENTRAL PEG + 2 side HOLES) or perhaps they were changed, by being drilled out and cups lined like some .577/450 brass I found a long time ago. It's gone now - gave it to someone 30 years ago.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
49NORTH
.224 member


Reged: 16/12/17
Posts: 21
Loc: British Columbia Canada
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #310908 - 24/01/18 07:58 AM

Daryl, This is a choke bored rifle, it was proved in the Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House at 11 bore at the breach and 12 bore at the muzzles which should be .729, but when I drive a soft lead slug through it comes out at .775.
I just re cast my balls to 50% wheel weight and 50% pure lead as per your previous suggestion.
The Kynoch cases I have are new unfired but are Berdan primed, I still need to figure out a better primer system I agree with Tinker, it is worrisome.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
Loc: Colorado
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 49NORTH]
      #310916 - 24/01/18 10:47 AM

Quote:


The Kynoch cases I have are new unfired but are Berdan primed, I still need to figure out a better primer system I agree with Tinker, it is worrisome.




I would think that converting the brass to take shotgun primers would be the way to go with these.
This is described in Wright’s book but pretty straightforward generally.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 49NORTH]
      #310917 - 24/01/18 10:53 AM

I have seen Berdan primed cases, in the past, with the stem removed, then a cup that will hold a standard Large Rifle primer soldered in to the hole. The original hole might have been enlarged slightly.

If you drive a slug through the choke, I take it the major (largest) diameter is .775". What is the measurement from groove to groove. That is the bore size.
The proofing marks may be out-of-sinc with that that gun is now.
12 bore would be .729" to .730", yes.
11 bore is .751"
10 bore is .775"

You said you tried small pistol primers and that they fit snugly? I have not seen such small Berdan primers before - of course there must be for small ctgs. just that I have never seen them on large cases.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
49NORTH
.224 member


Reged: 16/12/17
Posts: 21
Loc: British Columbia Canada
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #310919 - 24/01/18 11:04 AM

I would love to use 209s , the pocket is only 11/64 dia,is it as simple as drilling and countersinking for a 209? I would lose the pocket entirely and the primer would be in the powder, does it matter?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 49NORTH]
      #310920 - 24/01/18 11:12 AM

I'd like to see all the proofs.
I'd like to see the muzzles.
I'd like to see the slug as passed through the choked bores, from breech to and out of the muzzles.

I'd also like to see the brass.

Can you post photos?

Will likely want to see other things, but that's a start.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
49NORTH
.224 member


Reged: 16/12/17
Posts: 21
Loc: British Columbia Canada
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #310921 - 24/01/18 11:22 AM

I will,get them up tomorrow, I just spent the last 3 days emailing with Graham Greener, he provided all he could for info but nothing for reloading.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Wayne59
.400 member


Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 49NORTH]
      #310934 - 24/01/18 02:07 PM

What are the length of your cases. There are remedy's for your primer problems but they will probably require machining.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
49NORTH
.224 member


Reged: 16/12/17
Posts: 21
Loc: British Columbia Canada
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: Wayne59]
      #310966 - 25/01/18 05:08 AM









Sorry having some sizing issues.......


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Wayne59
.400 member


Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: 49NORTH]
      #310971 - 25/01/18 06:19 AM

Thank you for the photo's. Your cases are 2 3/4". Measured from the bottom of the rim to the top of the case. That is good because cases are available and would solve your priming troubles. I notice your bores are rifled with what looks like a very slow twist and very shallow rifling but your slug shows no rifling. You need to use a pure lead slug to slug a bore. If the slug you use is slightly smaller than the bore dia. you have to upset the slug to get accurate measurements. If it is slightly larger than the bore (I would recommend it as thin as those barrels are made on the end) Than you can drive the slug through. This might explain some of the measurements you have listed.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: Wayne59]
      #310983 - 25/01/18 08:03 AM

Are those really narrow lands or are those really narrow grooves?
Is that rifled choke polygonal?

Barrels look really thin at the muzzles too.

What's the barrel weight and length?
Is there a known history of it running as a choke-bore rifle in this configuration?

As noted before, it needs to be slugged with an over-size slug of soft lead.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Wayne59
.400 member


Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #310989 - 25/01/18 10:18 AM

I beleave the lands are narrow and the groves are wide. It also looks like it may be an uneven number of lands and grooves witch makes it a little harder to measure.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: Wayne59]
      #310991 - 25/01/18 10:22 AM

Appears to me, to have had the rifling reamed out which would explain the measured diameter and lack of rifling depth that could possibly grab and spin a ball or bullet exiting at speed.

Look at the thickness of the muzzle's walls.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member


Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 285
Loc: Montana
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #311010 - 25/01/18 05:19 PM

North, I've got a few thoughts/ideas,

-As pointed out, bump up a round ball by smacking it with a hammer a few times so you have to gently drive it through the bores then measure. Do it with both barrels and from both ends. My ~1870 10-bore is choked ~.003 for the last few inches. I only discovered that when slugs tapped in the muzzles fell freely toward the chambers after just a few inches of tapping yet had to be driven firmly all of the way from chamber towards the muzzle.

-The proof marking shows the size of the largest measuring gauge that would pass freely through the bore and is usually one "size" under the actual size for a rifle. Put another way, if 10-bore=.775" and your gun is marked 11, it means the bore is smaller than .775" land to land but bigger than .751". It could well be .774" or even be larger than .775" groove to groove. My .778" 10-bore is proofed 11, my 4-bore is proofed 5, and I owned an 8-bore that was proofed 9.

-My light ~10lb 2.5" cased gun is marked 5 drams. I'd guess your 2 3/4"gun is made for 5-7 drams depending on weight, as the barrels look trim. If it's in the 13+lb range the charge might be heavier, but then the case would probably be longer too. From the slow twist I suspect it is a roundball gun.

-I absolutely swear by a lubed felt wad at least 1/2" thick above the over powder card. I melt wonderlube or similar black powder lube in a shallow tray like a styrofoam meat tray in the microwave then roll the edges of the wads in the melted lube and store them in zip lock bags. They compress and give a complete powder seal (unlubed ones in tests show burned edges) and can let you get away with slightly undersize bullets or inconsistent groove depth without worry of blow by. They can compensate for a ton of variables.

-Lastly, try every type of powder you can get. My Tolley was made for 700 grain balls at 1300fps per their original advertisement. I tried loads from 1100-1450 fps in brass and plastic cases, with and without crimps, with blue dot, goex Fg, FFg, and FFFg, in almost every possible combination and never got a pattern better than crossing 8" at 30 yards, probably why I got te gun at a good price!! I happened to find a can of Swiss FFFg at a gun show and decided to try a reduced load of just over 4 drams with a heavy roll crimp in a plastic case and heavy cards. Load #36 gave exactly 1300fps and the holes consistently touch at 50 yards! It is now my favorite rifle.

Please keep all of us posted. Thanks!

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #311089 - 26/01/18 02:13 PM

Bob makes good suggestions here.
Especially with the advice to seek all possible load configurations.


On wad and card detail, see here



Felt wads are important.
I use saddle felt, or wool felt sheet sourced from McMaster Carr or similar industrial supplier.
I make the powder cards from milk carton, and form them into the cup/bottle cap shape myself.

Cup over powder, lubed felt disc, then lubed ring-shaped donut wad under the ball.
Nice little stack with self-centering and self-sealing design properties.
Easy to produce, and consistent performance. Lots of lube for nearly unlimited follow up shots.



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
49NORTH
.224 member


Reged: 16/12/17
Posts: 21
Loc: British Columbia Canada
Re: Greener Bore Rifle [Re: tinker]
      #311134 - 27/01/18 03:52 AM

The case is 2 5/8, the tape is underneath the case flush to the base.
There 8 narrow grooves for the 1 in 52 inch twist rifling, the barrels are 28 inches long.
I think Daryl is right on, the chokes seem to have been removed a some point.
Mr Greener said this was defiantly one of their choke bore rifles, proof marks are from 1875-1887, he considers this to be a heavy (9 1/2 lbs) 10 bore made for round ball and brass cases.
I still have issue with primer fit, I am in Canada so buying brass from the US is a pain in the a$$ and not a option right now.
Tinker, why not 2 lubed fiber wads? does Colum height matter?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)



Extra information
1 registered and 8 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  tinker 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 27398

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved