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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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CptCurlAdministrator
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10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends?
      #282847 - 24/05/16 11:51 PM

A "friend" has shoved me over the cliff or under the bus by enticing me to buy an H&H 10b Paradox. For now this sinister person will remain nameless; but let me warn you, he is a member of this board and someone known to all of you.

You who know me know that I am a dyed in the wool double rifle man. For these many years I have avoided the Paradox, though I must admit an errant glance from time to time. Now I am feeling corrupt, defeated, mistreated, misled, a traitor to all my beliefs. . . Can anyone recommend a counselor?

What does one do with such a thing? Too much free-bore for a rifle. And for a shotgun these sights seem a bit odd:








And then the muzzles!





I am told I can expect it to regulate with an 875 grain bullet traveling at 1500 feet per second. That's real horsepower!

Do you think a true friend would steer me into this? Maybe I'm keeping the wrong company.



At least it has ears. Maybe I can talk to it.




I don't yet have it in hand. It was my "friend" who shot these enticing photos. I suppose I will give more information after the gun arrives if my keepers will loosen the straight jacket and let me out of my rubber room.


Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #282852 - 25/05/16 01:58 AM

Ohhhh Boy! What fun is ahead! What a hog rifle! what's she weigh?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Watson577
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #282862 - 25/05/16 06:04 AM

Yep, It's all my fault....

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Huvius
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #282864 - 25/05/16 06:49 AM

Quote:

...And for a shotgun these sights seem a bit odd:








I'd say so!
How the heck can you use sights on the bottom of the barrels?!

--------------------
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Rockdoc
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: Huvius]
      #282872 - 25/05/16 08:23 AM

Ooh that is so very nice!

Congratulations.

Look forward to some more photographs.


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lonewulf
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: Rockdoc]
      #282875 - 25/05/16 08:55 AM



It's just a pity they didn't have those super smart computer controlled cutting machines back in the day. Note that, as good as the H&H craftsmen were, they just couldn't get those nice gaps between wood and metal that we get with modern manufacturing techniques. oh well ...I guess there's just no substitute for progress. Shame............


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MikeRowe
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: lonewulf]
      #282877 - 25/05/16 09:22 AM

It does appear you have fallen in with a suspicious bunch. Much more of this and you'll be a lost cause.

The best remedy for this situation is to send this thing to me, for indefinite safe keeping, while you spent time
reflecting upon the spot you're in…….


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TH44
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: lonewulf]
      #282878 - 25/05/16 09:28 AM

I take it is the later "Heavy Load" 10 bore - most desirable

More pics for the team please, when you get it

"What does one do with such a thing"?

Enjoy it and SHOOT IT! (with info. pics etc.)

TH44


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DarylS
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: Huvius]
      #282879 - 25/05/16 09:54 AM

Quote:








I'd say so!
How the heck can you use sights on the bottom of the barrels?!




Looks like not only some crap but rust cancer in the grooves.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Claydog
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #282881 - 25/05/16 12:29 PM

Heres what to do with it.
This lady used her H&H 12 bore Paradox on this bull. One shot as can be seen in the photo. The projectile was lodged in the rear hip. I was both surprised and impressed. He ran 20m and piled up. She was a very small lady who handled it like a man.




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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: Claydog]
      #282940 - 26/05/16 11:57 AM

Here's an incredible view of the face of the breach of this fantastic gun. Remember, I haven't even seen the piece, and I didn't take these photos.



Looks brand new to me.

Curl

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #282944 - 26/05/16 01:38 PM

No case base marks at all - yes - appears to be quite new.

I think you should send it to me - I've some round balls & a couple slug moulds that are perfect to test.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: TH44]
      #282948 - 26/05/16 08:45 PM

Quote:

I take it is the later "Heavy Load" 10 bore - most desirable

More pics for the team please, when you get it

"What does one do with such a thing"?

Enjoy it and SHOOT IT! (with info. pics etc.)

TH44




Yep, it's the Big Boy load - 8 drams.









The gun weighs 13 lbs. 1 oz. Here is the H&H ledger page:




Yesterday evening I got the shipment tracking information. It's due to arrive here Friday June 3 - one week from tomorrow.

Curl


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #282949 - 26/05/16 09:15 PM

Once again, commenting on the condition or lack of use of this piece, look at this very close crop of the face of the right hammer. There's a lot of dried and darkened oil, but I see virtually no use whatsoever.




Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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rigbymauser
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #282951 - 26/05/16 11:54 PM

A spectacular and beautiful beautiful gun. Congratulations.

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TH44
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #282982 - 27/05/16 07:51 AM

Curl - Excellent engraving for a best rifle, I am sure you will be most pleased when you get it in hand

Interesting for the detail, this would be one of the first rifles made by H&H at their new factory opened late spring 1893 - All previous H&H double guns and rifles made mostly by W&C Scott or Philip Webley (as both mine are)

The fences and shape of the action are subtly different from the earlier bought in versions, maybe returning to flat hammers (which I had previously wondered about) as part of the new system, which would soon change to mostly hammerless. Like you, I much prefer the Black Powder Hammer double rifles, including the Paradoxes

Tony

Edited by TH44 (27/05/16 08:00 AM)


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sharps4590
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: TH44]
      #283031 - 28/05/16 08:15 PM

I don't believe you are in bad company....outstanding piece. Oh what fun and privilege to work with such a gun.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6


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93x64mm
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: sharps4590]
      #283058 - 29/05/16 08:22 AM

Well Cap you are keeping with a very select crowd, as far as keeping with the wrong crowd; well that would be a very true statement as having a Paradox is exactly just that - neither fish nor fowl, but both!
What a lovely piece you have there, its an absolute gem & appears hardly if ever fired apart from proof! After reading Graeme Wright's book (a good section on the 12g paradox) it will be worth every drop of blood, sweat & tears; this one will test your skills, but in the end it will astound you as it did him for all manner of game including water buffalo!
Enjoy your new 'lady', we will all be waiting with bated breath for her to 'sing' once again
93x94mm


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470evans
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #288046 - 20/09/16 02:18 AM

Hello Captain.

There is a gentleman here that posts under the name "Gatsby" that was a tremendous help getting my paradox up and running.

One of the things I love about my paradox is the lower recoil than I have experienced with a typical slug gun. I expect the fact that the slug is typically cast slightly undersize and doesn't encounter resistance till it hits the choke is responsible for it.

There have been some recent threads on various sites about the paradox that has inspired me to get off my butt and make some rounds for mine. The plan is to whack a pig in the next couple of weeks.

I'd say you are keeping great company!

Edited by 470evans (20/09/16 02:29 AM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: 470evans]
      #288260 - 23/09/16 10:55 PM

A quick update:

Yes the Paradox arrived into my hands!

As I suspected from the photos before the purchase, it was covered with a layer of brown dried oil applied over the many years since it was born in 1893.

My judicious and very careful cleaning cleared away that old cruddy dried oil to reveal a like-new, unused masterpiece underneath. I haven't posted more photos because I haven't had the time to photograph this stunning example of art. But I will!

Well, I guess I did take one quick photo after cleaning. Here it is, but not well done. You can get an idea of how fabulously beautiful this gun really is without its brown coat of old dried oil:

Here's the "before cleaning" picture:






And here's the "after cleaning" picture, similar pose, very poor light with a lot of glare. All the original colors are there.





Quite a change, wouldn't you say?

I've spent a good deal of time gathering information about the Paradox guns and about proper techniques for loading ammunition for them. I bought a copy of Paradox, Vol. 1 by David Baker and Roger Lake and have read most of its interesting information also.

A prominent "gun person" who has an extensive collection of Paradox guns and much experience shooting them inspected my 10b and pronounced, "If you ever want to know what one looked like the day it was delivered from the Holland & Holland factory, this is the one to see." He was kind enough to supply me with a few bullets cast from his mold.

My "enabling friend", Watson577, and I cobbled together eight rounds for the gun and took it to the range on August 20, 2016. I let him do the honors of the first shots. Here is a video he made as I fired my first two shots from this gun:


Curl fires his first 2 rounds from his 1893 H&H 10b Paradox.


You will notice I got konked on the nose by my thumb knuckle on the first shot. My long ape arms and long neck prefer a little more wood!

My first two shots were fired at a target set at 50 yards. For never having pulled the triggers prior to those shots, the gun did reasonably well. Here is my target. The first shot (right) is in the black. The left was pulled a bit to the left. Load development and more shooting will refine my skills and the proper load.





I have ordered a mold, which I hope to have this fall. Watson577, the wizard who started this mess, has promised to help me with loading dies. It will all come together in due course and should be a passle of fun.

470evans, I wish I could take it afield in search of pigs. We don't have those critters in my neck of the woods. Maybe I will bowl over a white tail deer.

Stand by for more pictures, coming soon.

Curl


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #288263 - 23/09/16 11:12 PM

Here's a scan of the page devoted to the 10b Paradox from Holland & Holland's 1895 catalog:




And here's a close-up of the text on that page:




Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #288274 - 24/09/16 03:24 AM

WOW! Such a piece!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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470evans
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #288280 - 24/09/16 07:02 AM

Outstanding Paradox! My son and I just got back from the range shooting mine.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: 470evans]
      #288743 - 06/10/16 01:36 AM

There's more progress to report.

Mike Rowe made me a fantastic mould, which I received last week. Sunday I spent the afternoon casting bullets for my Paradox. By the end of the day I had 117 bullets.






Now I am waiting for a few loading tools. Once these are in hand I will be up and running with this interesting Paradox.

More reports as events occur!

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #288744 - 06/10/16 03:01 AM

Well done, what do they weigh?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #288752 - 06/10/16 06:48 AM

They are right at 875 grains.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #288760 - 06/10/16 11:13 AM

TKS Curl!

875gr. - same as an 8bore round ball in pure lead - interesting!

I must wonder how round balls would shoot? RB's would certainly penetrate better if of the same alloy.

Nice looking bullet design.

I find that such a large, heavy bullet usually fills out better if dipped, rather than bottom poured.

My only experience with that is 14 bore 750gr. through 1,200gr. Minnies. I get perfect bullets with dipping, but rounded corners and voids if bottom poured.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Heelerau
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #308860 - 09/12/17 11:53 PM

Chlorate of potash and flour of sulphur equal bulk well mixed and sealed with beeswax !! You will have a ball with that paradox !! A beautiful piece ! I would exchange my first born for such a gun !

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tinkerModerator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #308868 - 10/12/17 09:23 AM

This one looks fantastic!


And I agree with the fellows above - you're hanging with a rude bunch.
Enjoy the ride!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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nitro450exp
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #309211 - 20/12/17 07:15 AM

Lovely gun.
In lovely condition.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: nitro450exp]
      #322748 - 24/12/18 11:15 PM

I've neglected this thread and do have some stories to tell.

A few photos:



Here is a photo of the muzzles to give you an idea of what's going on:





An informal living room photo (top, obviously):



I really need to do some glamour shots.


Some bullets:




A few loaded rounds (225 grains 2F, 2 ounce bullet):





Kaboom! A right and a left:






See my first two shots ever on YouTube: https://youtu.be/saNWxgyOW6c
Anybody want to give it a try?


Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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470evans
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #322749 - 25/12/18 01:02 AM

Lovely gun, if you ever make it to Texas we can do a Paradox hog hunt. My 12 bore Paradox could use some company.

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tinkerModerator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: 470evans]
      #322752 - 25/12/18 02:37 AM

Nice update Roscoe!

You know for sure that I want to shoot that 8-dram Paradox.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylS
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: tinker]
      #322755 - 25/12/18 06:50 AM

Lovely, Roscoe. Striking!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #322763 - 25/12/18 02:40 PM

This has been one very enjoyable thread to read!

Thanks very much for posting.

These guns are quite fascinating ad yours is so very beautiful a piece of working art.

Have you tried birdshot? If so, how does the gun pattern?

I've always wondered if these were basically considered to be "rifles" that can shoot birdshot in an emergency instead of the opposite.

Marvelous gun!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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TH44
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #322772 - 26/12/18 07:10 AM

9.3X57, The original idea for them appears to have been a shotgun that could fire a slug if required

My own 10 bore Paradox, very early was as such, lightweight with straight hand stock, both shotgun and rifled Ball Gun (posted somewhere here)

when it became clear that they were as accurate as most rifles, lighter and with less recoil, H&H brought out a heavyweight 12 bore that would outperform the 10s, which did then, not sell

The answer was this wonderful Paradox, heavier and more powerful all round
The shotgun issue was irrelevant to the majority of richer hunters, a shotgun for birds as well as a lighter smaller bore rifle being taken on safari

Do not forget that at this time, before Nitro powders, the 8 bore, and now this 10 bore was the standard Dangerous Game rifle, with the mighty 4 bore (or heavyweight 8 bore Paradox, at around 15lbs, more handleable) for close up work
The advent of the .450-.600 Nitro rifles theoretically made them obsolete (although I certainly prefer them myself)

TH44


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4seventy
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #322782 - 26/12/18 10:47 AM

Wow, what a beautiful piece!
It would make a wonderful Oz Top End allrounder.
Buffalo Boar and Geese.
Damn, now you've spurred my interest!

Superb gun Roscoe!


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9.3x57
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: TH44]
      #322786 - 26/12/18 04:35 PM

Quote:

9.3X57, The original idea for them appears to have been a shotgun that could fire a slug if required

My own 10 bore Paradox, very early was as such, lightweight with straight hand stock, both shotgun and rifled Ball Gun (posted somewhere here)

when it became clear that they were as accurate as most rifles, lighter and with less recoil, H&H brought out a heavyweight 12 bore that would outperform the 10s, which did then, not sell

The answer was this wonderful Paradox, heavier and more powerful all round
The shotgun issue was irrelevant to the majority of richer hunters, a shotgun for birds as well as a lighter smaller bore rifle being taken on safari

Do not forget that at this time, before Nitro powders, the 8 bore, and now this 10 bore was the standard Dangerous Game rifle, with the mighty 4 bore (or heavyweight 8 bore Paradox, at around 15lbs, more handleable) for close up work
The advent of the .450-.600 Nitro rifles theoretically made them obsolete (although I certainly prefer them myself)

TH44




THANKS!!

I'm generally familiar with the background but your information is very interesting.

I was curious about the actual patterning. Tests done with Screw in rifled tubes in shotguns indicate very poor patterning when compared with the regular choked tube. I'm curious how these Paradox guns perform with birdshot. I've never actually read a patterning review of them.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #322793 - 27/12/18 03:50 AM

Quote:




Kaboom! A right and a left:






See my first two shots ever on YouTube: https://youtu.be/saNWxgyOW6c
Anybody want to give it a try?


Curl




curl
it looks like your left barrel is smaller than the right
look at the muzzle flash














--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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93x64mm
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: lancaster]
      #322807 - 27/12/18 09:01 AM

BLOODY AWESOME!

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tinkerModerator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: 93x64mm]
      #322810 - 27/12/18 02:53 PM

Perhaps a bit off topic - how do you like the LabRadar?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: tinker]
      #322815 - 27/12/18 10:16 PM

The LabRadar belongs to a friend.

It's great with smokeless powders, but it doesn't have a clue when using black powder. My Oehler 35P is the go-to device for any black powder loads.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Ahmed577
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: tinker]
      #322816 - 27/12/18 10:19 PM

Having a 10 bore rifle choked gun almost finished built by Purdey. ( Purdey used the name “ rifle choked “ ) to describe their paradox equilivent. I am led to believe a 10 bore paradox (holland) was never a true 10 bore, it was slightly under 10 bore. My 10 bore Purdey should be a true 10 bore. The Purdey is built as a rifle 27” barrels with an extra set of smooth bore barrels 32” for goose in the NT Australia.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: Ahmed577]
      #322817 - 27/12/18 10:31 PM

The H&H 10b Paradox was actually closer to a 9 bore.

Here's an excerpt from The Field, September 15, 1906 in which H&H answers a question concerning its philosophy in developing the heavy 10b Paradox:




This was re-printed in Baker & Lake, Paradox, The Story of Col. G.V. Fosbery, Holland & Holland, and the Paradox, Vol. 1, page 184.

I am sizing my bullets to .805", which is about a thousandth below actual bore diameter.

I will be quite interested to hear how your shooting goes with the Purdey. Do you know what bore dimensions they are using? What ammunition will they use for regulation? Will the case be brass or paper (plastic)? What will be the finished weight? Many questions!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Ahmed577
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #322818 - 27/12/18 10:52 PM

Will be going to england 5/19 and will get a lot of information then. The gun comes with a mould tool. Purdey have sent photos of the gun however I am unable to post to this forum. Next year I will give a better report.

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DarylS
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: Ahmed577]
      #322825 - 28/12/18 05:29 AM

Cpt Curly, question if I may.
You noted sizing bullets to .001" under bore size.
What alloy are you using?
Observation is that they (nicely shiny) are a tin/lead mix of perhaps 40:1 or slightly harder maybe 30:1.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #322834 - 28/12/18 09:56 AM

Daryl,

Those are 16:1. The original bullets by H&H were 15:1, I figured the 16:1 alloy available from RotoMetals was close enough.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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9.3x57
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #322837 - 28/12/18 11:29 AM

Curl:

That excerpt from The Field seems to verify a thought I had about these guns. Instead of referring to the gun as a shotgun that can be used for big game, it implies the gun is really intended as a "rifle", with no direct mention of fine shot. That is, assuming the recommendation to using a 10 bore is for another gun, that is, to use another gun to develop skill, and use the Paradox in the field for big game.

Since testing buck/bird with a Hastings choke tube I've questioned the fine shot patterning capability of the Paradox. The excerpt seems to suggest, indeed, the gun is more "rifle" than shotgun.

The concept is quite interesting and I wonder also if it dodged any laws in Indian states, etc, where use of rifles might have been restricted or prohibited? I seem to remember there were some? Similar to the situation presently in parts of the US. I would THINK {?} you'd be able to use that gun in "shotgun-only" deer zones of various states. I'd think a good attorney { } could make a pretty good argument in court if a local game warden thought otherwise!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #322846 - 29/12/18 02:34 AM

Yes, the 10b and 8b Paradox guns were definitely made as dangerous game rifles with little thought to shooting shot. They have quarter ribs, pistol grip stock, and rifle sights that do not fold down.

At first, when H&H introduced the 10b Paradox they made it light as a dual purpose arm along the same lines as the 12b Paradox. It had fold down sights, a shotgun rib, straight grip stock, proved for 4 drams, and weight comparable to a 10b shotgun. It was not a good seller, as it largely duplicated the 12b Paradox.

Shortly thereafter, the 10b Paradox was transformed to a dangerous game rifle. It took on the rifle characteristics mentioned above, it's weight was increased to 13 lbs., and it was prooved for 8 drams with a 2 ounce bullet. As stated in the H&H excerpt from The Field, posted above, it was intended to supplant the 8b rifle. Kaboom!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #322847 - 29/12/18 02:37 AM

All this talk about my 10b Paradox makes me want to get it out of the safe and take it for a ride. Nice weather is coming in a day or two. I think I may have a go with it. Stay tuned!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #322850 - 29/12/18 05:25 AM

Tks Curly. 16:1 it is. I am surprised, however the name of that game, is penetration and the harder bullet is needed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #322861 - 30/12/18 12:54 AM

Quote:

All this talk about my 10b Paradox makes me want to get it out of the safe and take it for a ride. Nice weather is coming in a day or two. I think I may have a go with it. Stay tuned!

Curl




Can't wait to see it again in action.

Thanks and yes, that history really clarifies it. As such, what you have then is a "Last Stand" of the True Big Bores made while "Big Bore" was getting smaller every day. A true transition gun and a fascinating piece of tangible history!

That deep rifling might play heck with shot patterns but...........................I wonder what a stroll over to Ballistic Products for some mylar and/or teflon wraps and wads along with buffer might make possible! Seems to me a very thick, possibly double layer of mylar and appropriate wadding might turn out some good "12 gauge" field loads there.

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Wraps-Inserts/departments/513/

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Wads/departments/83/

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Card-Filler-Wads/departments/211/

https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Buffers-Mica-Wad-Slick/products/72/

I spent last winter in my bunker and on a snowy range with two shotguns and 5 barrels developing buckshot loads for regular old, cheap 12 bore hulls and NOTHING I've ever done with a gun has been more interesting, frustrating, prone to failure OR more rewarding!

{By the way, I doubt you would have much need with a Black Powder arm, but Tom Armbrust can pressure-test loads for cartridges for which he has a test barrel setup. You send 6 rounds and 30 or 40 bucks and he gives you a tech sheet with all the data back. I'd be surprised if he has a barrel that will take your ammo, but for others who might be working with standard stuff, he's done a good job for me.}

Looking forward to more "paradoxicurl" posts!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #336250 - 07/01/20 12:31 AM

Quote:

. . .

Now I am waiting for a few loading tools. Once these are in hand I will be up and running with this interesting Paradox.

More reports as events occur!

Curl




That was over three years ago! I guess I owe an update.



First, here's a look at the mould Mike made for me:





You have already seen the bullets I cast from it (above).

Now, have a look at a fantastic set of custom dies:





The shellholder was store-bought from Buffalo Arms.

The tools consist of a push-through ring bullet sizer (left); a sizing die (center); and a crimp die (right). The tools are 1-1/2" diameter and thread into an RCBS AmmoMaster press.

Below you see two empty cases on left and two loaded cartridges on right.

Here's enough to dislocate your shoulder several times over:






Anybody want to come shoot with me?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #336261 - 07/01/20 03:54 AM

What's the load, Curly?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Wayne59
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #336272 - 07/01/20 06:57 AM

I think a sissy pad may be in order.

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93x64mm
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: Wayne59]
      #336296 - 07/01/20 11:55 PM

Quote:

I think a sissy pad may be in order.




I also reckon a few more 'snorts' as well will be in order for having a lap of this beast!
Fantastic mould & workmanship on the dies as well - can't wait to se what this this piece can do.....pretty damn well I reckon!


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #336299 - 08/01/20 01:29 AM

Quote:

What's the load, Curly?




8 drams Olde Eynsford 1-1/2F (220 grains);
Various wads - over powder card; lubed felt, etc.;
875 grain (2 oz.) bullet sized .805";
2-7/8" thin brass from Track of the Wolf.

It's as near to the original H&H 10b Paradox cartridge as can be had.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #336300 - 08/01/20 01:41 AM

Got plenty of ammo waiting. Daryl, you would feel right at home - it's snowing here today!





Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #336301 - 08/01/20 01:53 AM

Quote:

Tks Curly. 16:1 it is. I am surprised, however the name of that game, is penetration and the harder bullet is needed.




Not a problem. H&H made a steel-cored bullet for the 10b Paradox. Here's a page from the 1910 catalog:



Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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