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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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Longknife
.333 member


Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 256
Loc: Illinois
Rem. Rolling block 20 bore?
      #277752 - 10/02/16 05:25 AM

I purchased a Remington RB in 20 gauge, in pretty decent condition except the barrel has been shortened. My reason for acquiring this was to some day build a 20 bore rifle out of it, shooting black powder (of course) and a slug. I would am thinking a 1 1/8 X 30 inch oct barrel in the style of an English game rifle. I have a 20 bore brass case and determined that it will take up to 5 drams or 136 grains of powder loaded to 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) from the mouth. That should leave me enough room to seat a 1 inch (25.4 mm) long projectile (half in and half out). The inside of the case measures .654 (16.6 mm). Sooo... I can get a .620 barrel and have the twist and rifling depth made to my order, what would be best? If I drop to a .640 slug and .010 deep rifling that would be about perfect,,, I think? I would really like to use a full size grease grooved slug. What would a .640 X 1 inch slug weigh??? ANNNND,,,,Is this action up to the task??? Need ideas here from you bore gun guys.....SOOO many questions.....THANKS,,,Ed

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Longknife

Edited by Longknife (10/02/16 05:27 AM)


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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Rem. Rolling block 20 bore? [Re: Longknife]
      #277756 - 10/02/16 06:55 AM

IMO there are several things that you need to re-consider with this project.

#1 Just because the case will accept 5 drams doesn't mean that you can fill it up that much safely. Wads have a purpose.
That old rolling block won't handle express rifle loads. They're not that strong. Stick with loads that they used with black powder SG shells.

#2 a .620 barrel will use a .621 or a .622 diameter bullet not a .640

I had a RB 45-70 that had an 1 1/8" barrel on it and it was very heavy. It was 30" long IIRC, a Navy Arms conversion I believe.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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Jim_C
.300 member


Reged: 09/08/14
Posts: 169
Loc: USA
Re: Rem. Rolling block 20 bore? [Re: AkMike]
      #277758 - 10/02/16 08:58 AM

I've seen a couple of these old (#1 or copies of #1) rolling block shotguns show excessive wear when shot extensively with regular-old-BP-slug loads, not express-rifle type loads. The actions started out nice, but the slug loads just beat the action all to hell. A #5 rolling block might better stand up to the loads, but in the 40 or so years I've been looking at rolling blocks I have yet to see a shotgun built on a #5 action.

For load like you've mentioned, you might consider swapping the roller off for a good Martini action.


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Longknife
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Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 256
Loc: Illinois
Re: Rem. Rolling block 20 bore? [Re: AkMike]
      #277759 - 10/02/16 09:01 AM

#1 ..Mike, I did not plan on starting with maximum loads in this rolling block. I just made a statement about maximum case size and capacity and yes I will use wads or cards under the bullet. (if I ever get that far with this project)

#2..I started this thread because of the thread on here about the Husqvarna RB that has a bore of .622 and a groove of .662. WOW that's .020 deep rifling! This person is experimenting with .662 balls and slugs in his 20 bore ...Why were these bore guns rifled so deep and do I need to do the same?
I believe that in BPCR rifles the bullet needs to be .001 over groove dia. does this apply to bore guns too?...

#3...I have a .45/70 on a Sharps action with a 30 inch 1/8 barrel and it weighs about 12 3/4 lbs. so I'm not worried about weight. This bore gun will be lighter than that or I could even go to a tapered barrel or straight 1 inch barrel to lighten it up more..... Still looking for ideas..........Thanks for the reply...Ed


Jim, I've looked for a #5 action but they are very hard to come by......Haven't come across any martini actions either....Thanks, Ed

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Longknife

Edited by Longknife (10/02/16 09:05 AM)


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Rem. Rolling block 20 bore? [Re: Longknife]
      #277767 - 10/02/16 11:30 AM

Hey Longknife - I like the idea of a bore rifle - of course. Couple thou. over groove diameter would be normally correct for cast bullets, unless you have a cup wad to take the rifling then release the bullet at the muzzle, spinning as it should. Lyman's Sabot mould does exactly this. They also have just such a mould in 20 bore, casting well over 300gr. in bullet weight to fit available plastic wads.

3 drams (82.0gr.) would be a good load in a 20 shotgun action.

I used 3 drams in my 2 - 1/2" 16 bore Husky of 1902, with under 14 bore balls in it's 13 bore (.705") groove diameter. The bore, was 15 at .675" - yes .015" rifling depth, each side.

The .690 balls were undersized, but the rifling was straight and with the wads needed to fill the empty space inside the hull, the shot quite well. Next time out, I tried 16 bore cloth patched balls (12 ounce denim) in the 2 1/2" cases and they worked just fine, accuracy wise and shot very clean was well.

I personally would stick with round ball - as a .615" is already at 350gr.

Depending on rifling depth, a .626" is 368.4gr. and .637" is 389gr. - all in pure lead, of course.

ALL THE BEST

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Rem. Rolling block 20 bore? [Re: DarylS]
      #277771 - 10/02/16 01:55 PM

Longknife, newly made barrels for a 600 Nitro are a .620 groove. I assume that will be your basic starter bore for your tube. I don't recall what my twist is on mine, but the Pac-Nor barrel site will show their suggestions. For this project I'd go as slow of a twist as possible.

Daryll is much more of a BP guy than I and will have some good ideas.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Rem. Rolling block 20 bore? [Re: AkMike]
      #278144 - 18/02/16 11:43 AM

Here you go Longknife! Cheap and easy..


http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....;gonew=1#UNREAD

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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Longknife
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Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 256
Loc: Illinois
Re: Rem. Rolling block 20 bore? [Re: AkMike]
      #278205 - 20/02/16 01:56 AM

AkMike, Thanks for the link. It appears these fast twist barrels were intended for slugs, but I have been advised to stick with a round ball.

--------------------
Longknife


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Rem. Rolling block 20 bore? [Re: Longknife]
      #278209 - 20/02/16 04:14 AM

26" rate of twist sounds like a 900gr. to 1,200gr. bullet to me. I'm not sure how the Lyman sabot slug would do - it's only 350gr., about the same as a round ball. I think perhaps if the plastic wad could keep up, the extra-fast rate of twist might cause other problems. This is something I do not know.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Longknife
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Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 256
Loc: Illinois
Re: Rem. Rolling block 20 bore? [Re: DarylS]
      #278409 - 25/02/16 03:31 AM

Daryl... That's what I thought. They are slug barrels. I would really like to be able to shoot a slug, I can shoot round balls out of my M-loaders!

--------------------
Longknife


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Rem. Rolling block 20 bore? [Re: Longknife]
      #278413 - 25/02/16 04:12 AM

OK - that being said, there are mould making firms that can make you anything you want, in a slug.

I would think something in a 500gr. or 600gr. might be just fine in that twist - much lighter than the typical 900gr. for a .600 nitro, but still much 'better' than a round ball.

You want to be able to get enough speed out of it, to make the whole 'lesson' worth while. I'd think 1,450fps to 1,500fps would do that.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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bigskybound
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Reged: 12/06/15
Posts: 55
Loc: Arkansas
Re: Rem. Rolling block 20 bore? [Re: DarylS]
      #278435 - 25/02/16 07:52 AM

"#2..I started this thread because of the thread on here about the Husqvarna RB that has a bore of .622 and a groove of .662. WOW that's .020 deep rifling! This person is experimenting with .662 balls and slugs in his 20 bore ...Why were these bore guns rifled so deep and do I need to do the same?
I believe that in BPCR rifles the bullet needs to be .001 over groove dia. does this apply to bore guns too?... "

I have one of the Husky Number 4 20 Gauge rifles mentioned in that thread and use the .662 round ball over just 70 gr. FFG, nitro card, 3/8" fiber wad, and a dollop of Bore Butter. That seems to be near the original .42mm brass case loads for that particular gun.


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Longknife
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Reged: 17/04/08
Posts: 256
Loc: Illinois
Re: Rem. Rolling block 20 bore? [Re: bigskybound]
      #278562 - 28/02/16 03:53 PM

Bigskybound, Do you know the twist rate n that barrel? How accurate is it at 100 yards?

--------------------
Longknife


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DarylS
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Re: Rem. Rolling block 20 bore? [Re: bigskybound]
      #278564 - 28/02/16 04:19 PM

bigskyhound - the Husky model 20 in 16 bore I had, with one rifled barrel & one smooth, had a .705" groove (13 bore) and .675" bore(15 bore). Both barrels had 16 bore chambers. The right barrel was the rifled barrel, with straight grooves.
It's rifling was .015" deep, per side.

According to Husqvarna, the left barrel was meant for paper case with shot- the right for a brass case and round ball, thus one could easily tell what load one had in their hand without looking at it.

The largest balls I shot i this gun, were .684", which engraved about .010" per side. With the wads beneath, they show fairly well.

What also worked well was a 16 bore ball and a .030" denim patch.

With that in mind, a .620" ball, with .0225" per side denim (10 ounce) would make .667", a nice tight fit in the grooves and nice tight fit (probably) in a brass case.
The nice thing about using cloth patched balls, is the lube (I used Neetsfoot oil) keeps the fouling soft, are very accurate, solves the deep-groove-ball-diameter dilema and there is no buildup of fouling.

Jeff Tanner in the UK would be delighted to bore you a mould, any size you want, and at a reasonable price.




All three types- shot, 16 bore ball and 14 bore ball.



Note- as the target below shows, the 16 bore, patched balls shot better than the bare 14 bore balls. It's definitely worth a try.




--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (28/02/16 04:38 PM)


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BillfromOregon
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Reged: 27/10/04
Posts: 250
Loc: Sweetwater, by God Texas
Re: Rem. Rolling block 20 bore? [Re: DarylS]
      #278697 - 02/03/16 07:21 AM

Daryl, what fun!

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