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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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z375
.224 member


Reged: 25/08/05
Posts: 39
Remo 12ga Bore rifle project...Inputs needed!!
      #263664 - 16/04/15 06:23 PM

I have had a look at a Mauser 98-actioned Remo 12ga bolt-gun and was wondering whether it would be a suitable candidate for a bore rifle project. From what I've read about them on the web most say that they were better built and finished than the Mauser Geha bolt-action in 12ga at the time.

I've got an E.R. Shaw fully-rifled 12ga blank that's 24" long and 1.25" diameter through which I will shoot some BPI SPW sabots and mostly conicals which include the CBE Paradox 680-gr HP's and 750-gr solids, there's also a full-bore version of the Lyman Sabot Slug which measures .737" and weighs 660-gr in pure lead. Velocities would be around the 1300-1400fps mark with the full-bore stuff. Here they are...







My first course of action was to thread this barrel onto would be the 12ga Greener GP receiver, but since I've come across the Remo M98, I'm giving it some serious thought. I was leaning towards the Greener for sheer simplicity of design and strength, with the added bonus of having the original smoothbore barrel when needed! Please feel free to chime in on this as to which of the two would be a more logical choice for this project. Thanks!!

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26559
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Remo 12ga Bore rifle project...Inputs needed!! [Re: z375]
      #263672 - 17/04/15 12:52 AM

The bullets look good.

I am curious about the shape of the Lyman/type slug. It is similar to the shape of a waisted air rifle pellet. The air rifle pellets are not stable in the transonic zone of velocity. I do not know if this is a factor of the rate of twist in these rifles or not, but they are happiest in the sub 980fps range.

Are the standard Lyman slugs 'happy' with supersonic speeds?

What groups sizes have been made or are expected from rifled barrels?

Perhaps a standard-shaped slug would be best?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Remo 12ga Bore rifle project...Inputs needed!! [Re: DarylS]
      #263675 - 17/04/15 01:38 AM

My first thought is to avoid pure lead and go with at least a 1:10 tin/lead alloy.

Next is to ditch the hollow point, go full solid nose.

Next - how strong is that mauser at 12ga..?
If good for ripper loads, build a box magazine and run it!


I'll stay tuned.


Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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John303
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Reged: 16/11/06
Posts: 243
Loc: Canada
Re: Remo 12ga Bore rifle project...Inputs needed!! [Re: tinker]
      #263680 - 17/04/15 04:33 AM

Not to discourage you but first, yes the Remos are more refined than the Geha etc., I have several in my collection. All 12s need the front ring modified to accept the 12 shell. At the end of this modification the front lugs of the bolt do not engage, the rear lug now does all the work. I've never heard of one letting go.
I have a rifled barrel in 20 gauge to do basically what you are contemplating. Having said all that I believe a 71 / 71-84 action would be a better option. The Remos are very nice shotguns and rather scarce to begin with, every Mauser fan should have one. Should you decide to continue you certainly will have nice bore rifle. --- John ** PM me if you wish **

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z375
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Reged: 25/08/05
Posts: 39
Re: Remo 12ga Bore rifle project...Inputs needed!! [Re: DarylS]
      #263699 - 17/04/15 02:55 PM

Daryl, I have shot these through a friend's William Evans paradox last week and finally got it to regulate, I'll post pictures later in the day. The final load was doing 1065fps over the chrony and at 40yds the group is very comforting! Also, some of the recovered slugs from the sand bank that I was using as backstop showed good expansion and weight retained was consistently between 642-646grs. Just for kicks, I loaded one the slugs the other way around i.e hollow-base up and the expansion was a real eye-opener!! Btw, the Shaw barrels have a 1:28" twist.

Edited by z375 (17/04/15 02:57 PM)

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26559
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Remo 12ga Bore rifle project...Inputs needed!! [Re: z375]
      #263727 - 18/04/15 01:17 AM

Sounds good! The normal Lyman mould runs .690" on the slugs I was sent and 506gr. in WW alloy. They do fit nicely in a WW red 1 1/oz. field wad, leaving enough room for a decent powder charge.
I haven't got to work - yet - on my loads, but since obtaining a pound of AA Steel powder, I am champing at the bit --- a bit. I need to borrow my bro's roll crimp tool.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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z375
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Reged: 25/08/05
Posts: 39
Re: Remo 12ga Bore rifle project...Inputs needed!! [Re: John303]
      #263959 - 21/04/15 07:33 PM

John, The Remo is something I would like to keep as is, due to the fact that they're well-made and not too commonly found, trouble is, in the case that I do consider getting the rifled barrel fitted onto the Remo, would it be cause for concern given the velocities I am looking to achieve with this sort of set-up? It would make a fine-looking bore rifle too, that's a given!

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Remo 12ga Bore rifle project...Inputs needed!! [Re: z375]
      #263964 - 21/04/15 10:23 PM

z375,
I have used the regular size Lyman 20 and 12 gauge slugs inside AA shot wads in AA Winchester cases and roll crimped them. They work very well IF you fill the rear hollow base with wax to keep the wads from being punched into them and carried all the way to the target. I have never heard about the full bore size Lyman slugs and would not care to use them because of leading problems. I have some Shaw 12 gauge rifled barrels and they all have lots of chatter roughness on the tops the lands, I suppose this is due to they way they are rifled.

I asked one of the other guys about all the roughness inside them and he advised me to use a small bore cylinder hone on an extended rod to hone out the roughness in them. I was shocked at such a suggestion, thinking that the hone would jam inside the barrel but decided to give it a try anyway, and guess what? It works like a charm to hone off the chatter marks from the tops of the lands! You only want to do it long enough to just get them smoothed up. This technique will radically reduce the barrel leading down to nothing and make the barrel much "slicker" inside.

I have built a couple of double rifled shotguns using these 12 gauge Shaw barrels and they were all loaded pretty hot with no leading problems because of the shot cup protecting the slug from and barrel rifling. I tied roll crimping them, thinking that they would be more accurate due to more start pressure and a better burn of the powder, but this proved not to be true.

I get just as much velocity by just star crimping them as I did by fooling around roll crimping them, and it is quicker and easier to load them that way. The only advantage to the roll crimp is that you can instantly see that you are loading slug loads. The only disadvantage to the roll crimping is that you can only reload them a couple of times with these hot slug loads, then the crimps start loosening up. I have gotten three reloads out of them by melting the star crimps together with a hot nail head, but that is really too much trouble and may effect the overall accuracy and speed of the loads.

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z375
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Reged: 25/08/05
Posts: 39
Re: Remo 12ga Bore rifle project...Inputs needed!! [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #264010 - 22/04/15 09:46 PM

Quote:

z375,
I have some Shaw 12 gauge rifled barrels and they all have lots of chatter roughness on the tops the lands, I suppose this is due to they way they are rifled.

I asked one of the other guys about all the roughness inside them and he advised me to use a small bore cylinder hone on an extended rod to hone out the roughness in them. I was shocked at such a suggestion, thinking that the hone would jam inside the barrel but decided to give it a try anyway, and guess what? It works like a charm to hone off the chatter marks from the tops of the lands! You only want to do it long enough to just get them smoothed up. This technique will radically reduce the barrel leading down to nothing and make the barrel much "slicker" inside.

I have built a couple of double rifled shotguns using these 12 gauge Shaw barrels and they were all loaded pretty hot with no leading problems because of the shot cup protecting the slug from and barrel rifling.



BirdHunter,

Thank you for the input! Well, the Shaw barrels are still wrapped up in petrolatum tape and coated with a heavy marine-grade corrosion inhibitor in the bores, so its difficult to make out the roughness on the top of the lands as you have mentioned.

What was the size of the small-bore cylinder hone you'd used for your Shaw barrels and what grit size?
I do have a set of 12ga 32" Flex-Hones in 180, 400 and 800-grit, will this work to smoothen the top of the lands?

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Tom_H
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Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 335
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: Remo 12ga Bore rifle project...Inputs needed!! [Re: z375]
      #264101 - 24/04/15 09:09 AM

I would pass on the Remo.
There are a number of issues with them besides the rear locking lug.
There is a cut in the action that has to do with an arm leading to the magazine. IIRC, the stock will crack in this location. They can't handle recoil.
I did a job on one that had been incorrectly chambered (a regular shotgun reamer wont fit a rifled barrel)and after looking over the entire arrangement chose to use a late model Mossberg (395K?) instead.

I have worked on two Greeners and my only issues with them are related to sighting and the case usually needs a little help with ejection. 2 3/4 is the max without grinding the block. The factory barrel(rechambered to 12ga) was very accurate with foster slugs and a breeze to clean with a tornado brush.

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

Edited by Tom_H (24/04/15 09:13 AM)

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Birdhunter50
.375 member


Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Remo 12ga Bore rifle project...Inputs needed!! [Re: z375]
      #265132 - 18/05/15 01:59 AM

Z375,
Any hone that will fit down the barrel will work, the rougher the grit the faster it will cut of course. I would start with a rougher grit and finish up with a finer one. the ones I used are made by Plews and are marked 72-309 1 1/8' medium grit. The 1 1/8 " is the maximum they will expand out to. I used hone in conjunction with these stones and you want to get a slurry going which will also help to smooth the tops of the lands up. Run the drill at a slower speed to start with at a right hand twist, you can back off on the pressure and speed up the drill after you get some of the roughness off. Most of these hones have a knurled nut that increases or decreases the pressure setting on the honing stones. Start heavy but finish up with light pressure. good luck. Bob

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Remo 12ga Bore rifle project...Inputs needed!! [Re: z375]
      #267335 - 03/07/15 10:22 PM

Z375,
I did not notice your question about the flex hones. I would not try and use them to smooth up the Shaw barrels, you need the longer surface of the actual stones to help ride over the lands. Flex hones that I have used in the past consist of small balls of abrasive on round wire brushes, these will mess up your rifling I'm sure. How are you coming along with your project gun? Bob

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John303
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Reged: 16/11/06
Posts: 243
Loc: Canada
Re: Remo 12ga Bore rifle project...Inputs needed!! [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #267347 - 04/07/15 04:35 AM

Z375 & Others; I don't know how far you've got with your project. As of late I purchased a Remo
Popular marketed by H. Boker, if I was headed in the direction of a bolt action 12 bore this
would be my first choice.
Read about it here on this site at Classic Firearms etc. some pics there too. FYI --- John

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