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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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gungadoug
.333 member

Reged: 13/08/12
Posts: 285
Loc: NM

16 bore paradox questions
#256828 - 16/11/14 12:47 PM

Just took delivery of a Manufrance 16 bore hammer paradox, and need some advise. I am currently loading 2 12 bores, one a rifle, and one a paradox. Both use Federal paper hulls nicely. 16 bore paper is not quite so easy to come by, so will likely have to go with plastic. Bore dia is .673, so guess a slug of about .671-.672 will be OK, but need advise on weight. I will order a SB mould. I likely will garrote crimp, with cork wads and Unique powder.

Paradox rifling is not sharp, but rounded. Have not measured the muzzle dimensions yet. Proofed at 900 BAR, 2 3/4", in Jolly Old. Proofs say " noire 0.4.50 balle"- 4 Dr black, 50 gram ball? Other proofs are for smokeless and shot.

So- any thoughts on Fosbery style conical weight, and possible starting charges of Unique? Any hard data?

Thanks, Doug

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: gungadoug]
#256833 - 16/11/14 03:56 PM

Four drams and 771 grain bullet would be a banging load for sure.
I doubt that's the regulation load, but you could try...

My 16bore light rifles have done well with 2-3/4 to 3-1/4 drams powder and 1 ounce bullets. I have one that runs more powder, but it's unusual and a total ripper.
I'd guess a start in the 3 dram range with Fosbery paradox-style bullets cast 20:1 and sized to the diameter of the cylinder portion of your bores would be safe.

I stirred the pot with Cheddite years ago for a short production run of 16bore paper cases. I don't think they've made them since. Plastic will work fine.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Edited by tinker (16/11/14 03:59 PM)

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: tinker]
#256834 - 16/11/14 04:08 PM

I should add here, always cast your chambers and slug your bores, then do the math to assure you have clearance for whatever hulls you're using with whatever bullet you're using.

Very Important!!!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8725
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: tinker]
#256844 - 16/11/14 07:57 PM

isn't magtech 16 ga brass the cheapest solution on the long run?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: lancaster]
#256845 - 16/11/14 08:41 PM

The magtech brass has very thin walls - which can complicate matters if used in place of paper or plastic (thick walled) cases in chambers cut for the thick walled case. Getting them to size properly on proper projectiles can be tricky - if the gun isn't set up for the thin case.

This is why I say to cast and measure the chambers and bores of the tubes.
Paradox guns want projectiles right at cylinder bore diameter, measured before the chokes.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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gungadoug
.333 member

Reged: 13/08/12
Posts: 285
Loc: NM

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: tinker]
#256856 - 17/11/14 01:05 AM

Tinker, thanks. I expect the listed load was the proof load?? Certainly would be very stout! So- 1 oz sounds about right, likely I will go with NFB equivalents- maybe start at 20 gr Unique, and work up. My 12 bores all like 22.5, so my feeling is this should be close. This has chambers for the paper/plastic hulls.
Thanks, Doug

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MikeRowe
.333 member

Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 478
Loc: Arkansas, USA

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: gungadoug]
#256858 - 17/11/14 01:32 AM

Doug - I have some 16 bore Paradox bullets here which came from an original mould. At .668" diameter they weigh 530 grains in hollow point form, and the solid will probably add 35 or 40 grains to that.

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: MikeRowe]
#256861 - 17/11/14 02:58 AM

Mike - I want some of those 16bore paradox bulets.
Do you have the mould?

Doug - how much does your gun weigh?
It's not impossible that it's set up for that load, show us all the proofs.
Weigh the gun and weigh the barrels.
If I recall, the *12bore* fosbery paradox projectile goes at 740 grains.

Also - the fellows who are doing nfb for bore rifles often end up working with blue dot.
There's a standard formula, but I don't have it and I haven't been doing nfb in my bore rifle loads. I shoot real charcoal. Might try nfb some day, but I don't crave the complication at this time.

Gatsby or JAZ will chime in soon I'm sure.
They know the nitro business.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Edited by tinker (17/11/14 03:04 AM)

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MikeRowe
.333 member

Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 478
Loc: Arkansas, USA

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: tinker]
#256863 - 17/11/14 03:31 AM

Tinker - I only have four or five of the bullets, just some samples I was given. The mould is in the case with a pristine Royal, cased with every conceivable accessory, which sadly I do not own. A close friend was a previous owner of this gun, and he said it shot perfectly with these bullets.

I do, however, have a cherry I have made to duplicate the bullet. It should drop them in the low .670's (I've yet to cut a mould with it).

BTW In his book on the Paradoxes, Roger notes the 16 bore load was 2 1/2 drams with a 625 grain
bullet.
The bullets I have here are lighter than that. There seems to be quite a bit of variation, I have
observed original 12 bore H&H moulds throw solid bullets anywhere from 725 to over 800 grains.

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: MikeRowe]
#256866 - 17/11/14 04:17 AM

2-1/2 drams No.6 equivalent and the heavy paradox bullet can do wonders.

I just now got in from my front yard 100yd range pushing heavy 20bore bullets with the regulated 2-1/2 dram No.6 charge in my Purdey 20bore rifle.

That 16 Paradox should rip!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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gungadoug
.333 member

Reged: 13/08/12
Posts: 285
Loc: NM

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: tinker]
#256886 - 17/11/14 09:43 AM

Tinker, IIRC the gun weighs 7#8oz. Don't have the barrel weight. I have tried Blue Dot, and find it difficult to light up. I got a 12 bore recipe from Ross Seyfreid using unique which is truly great, so will try to stick close to that. 600 gr of Fosbery sounds very close to right, as the 12's use 750 gr bullets. I may have Steve Brooks make a hollow point mould at 600, with a blank pin to cast solid at 40-50 gr more- still considering.
Thanks all for the advise! Doug

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CommandCar
.333 member

Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: gungadoug]
#256986 - 19/11/14 10:33 PM

See this thread. I believe I gave Mike Rowe a sample from this mould.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=184342&an=0&page=1#Post184342

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gungadoug
.333 member

Reged: 13/08/12
Posts: 285
Loc: NM

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: CommandCar]
#257424 - 02/12/14 12:26 AM

Well, an update. I have been able to find some roundballs at .672, and using 18 gr. Unique with a roll crimp, these seem to give decent accuracy, and more or less regulate. I will be receiving a fosbery style mould soon, and will try that. Just loaded up 10 of the balls, and shot at steel at 100 m, so can't really speak for the accuracy, but they will hit a 12x 18 plate at that range. Now I need to find a ball mould at that diameter!
Doug

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26499
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: gungadoug]
#257438 - 02/12/14 04:03 AM

I asked Jeff Tanner to cut me a mould for a .677" round ball. That is a true 15 bore ball size. They come out of the mould in soft lead at .675".
If you ordered a mold at .674, you would probably end up at .672 pure or .673 in 20:1 mix.
These moulds fit standard handles and cost about $35.00US payable to an account in California.
I have 5 of his moulds ranging from .595" to .740" and they only took about 7 business days to arrive on the West coast of Canada.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: gungadoug]
#258288 - 27/12/14 06:23 AM

This one has the good proofs!
Note five crossed branches.

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Iowa_303s
.400 member

Reged: 22/03/13
Posts: 1014
Loc: Iowa, USA

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: tinker]
#258293 - 27/12/14 07:19 AM

Very nice french double you have there Tinker. Is that a swamped rib I see in front of the rear sight?

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: Iowa_303s]
#258294 - 27/12/14 07:47 AM

Not mine - those are photos of Doug's paradox.

Very nice indeed!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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gungadoug
.333 member

Reged: 13/08/12
Posts: 285
Loc: NM

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: tinker]
#258312 - 28/12/14 01:24 AM

Tinker, thanks for posting! My final loading, which will put all shots into 2" at 50 meters, is Rio plastic hulls, 15.5 gr Unique, nitro wad, 2 3/8" waxed wads, and a 600 gr Fosbery bullet sized .672. I am now in the process of filling a recess in the case that was built for a shoulder stocked Broomhandle- so, 12 bore barrels, 16 bore Paradox, and a Broomhandle all in the same case! Wonder why?
Thanks, Doug

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elvas
.275 member

Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 64
Loc: Thessaloniki, GREECE

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: gungadoug]
#258338 - 29/12/14 04:46 AM

A 12ga Lyman sabot slug sized down at bore's diameter could be used as an everyday plinking load, I suppose.
Lefteris

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8725
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: gungadoug]
#258339 - 29/12/14 04:56 AM

Quote:

Tinker, thanks for posting! My final loading, which will put all shots into 2" at 50 meters, is Rio plastic hulls, 15.5 gr Unique, nitro wad, 2 3/8" waxed wads, and a 600 gr Fosbery bullet sized .672. I am now in the process of filling a recess in the case that was built for a shoulder stocked Broomhandle- so, 12 bore barrels, 16 bore Paradox, and a Broomhandle all in the same case! Wonder why?
Thanks, Doug

12 bore main gun
16 bore for sunday
broomhandle in case the savages attack

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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gungadoug
.333 member

Reged: 13/08/12
Posts: 285
Loc: NM

Re: 16 bore paradox questions [Re: lancaster]
#260526 - 15/02/15 01:38 PM

Latest- an advanced collector of Broomhandles has been kind enough to try some of the different styles and models in the case- turns out it is built for an early Bolo and holster stock. Not easy to find, likely! So- I will be on the hunt, probably for a while! BTW- accuracy and trajectory are excellent at 100 and 200m with the 16 bore Paradox bbls. Have yet to use the 12 bore shot bbls!

In addition, so far my experience is that these bore guns seem to behave directly the opposite from what I expect from a double rifle--If they shoot apart, decrease the charge vs. increasing to bring all together, and opposite of course if crossing. Holds true with 5 different guns- a Lancaster, 3 paradoxes, and a rifle. Any opinions?
Regards, Doug

Edited by gungadoug (15/02/15 01:48 PM)

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