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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Regulating a 12 bore
      #186699 - 28/07/11 05:41 AM

Been playing with a husqvarna 310A and have been getting outstanding groups barrel for barrel but no matter what I do ,as close as I can get the groups together is 8" @ 50yards. The butt has been weighted, forearm to thin to ad lead, have tried triple seven, 4756 and longshot (all show 8" spread). Longshot is the best of the lot. Groups at 8" but much lower than the others as it groups at higher velocity 1400 fps and I believe is beating the vertical recoil jump but still getting the horizontal spread. It may be my trigger pull causing the problem but it seems much to consistent. On the weekend I shot three lefts into the same hole and two rights in one hole with the third going wild by an inch. During this grouping we even changed to a standing bench to see how hold and trigger pull affected things to no avail. I'm not complaining as this thing is grouping like a house of fire but I have got to get some regulation. Is it time to pull the ribs and regulate or is there something else I should try?

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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beleg2
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Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #186740 - 28/07/11 09:51 PM

Hi,
It smooth bore o rifled?
Thanks
Martin


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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: beleg2]
      #186751 - 28/07/11 11:11 PM

Beleg2 this is a smoothbore shotgun we shortened tubes to 24" from the original 30"

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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CommandCar
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #186766 - 29/07/11 01:02 AM

What load are you using? Ball diameter & weight, wad column and case?

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: CommandCar]
      #186770 - 29/07/11 01:35 AM

I'm shooting a .735 roundball of Brinell hardness 18 (my bore is .7345) over an ox-yoke fiberwad lubed with wonderlube on top of a Winchester W12 pink wad (can't recall all letters just now) petals removed, over 34 grns of Longshot in a cheddite hull and cheddite primer. Showed no signs of leading at velocities over 1250. Not sure why higher velocity showed cleaner tubes. This round is accurate in my opinion as I load the hulls full length and seal with beeswax. There is no crimp or jump to forcing cone for the ball to deal with.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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500Nitro
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #186771 - 29/07/11 01:41 AM


.

Edited by 500Nitro (29/07/11 01:49 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: CommandCar]
      #186772 - 29/07/11 01:46 AM

The faster they are going, the lower they will strike.

I'm surprised they are holding at 8", though.

I would continue with load developement, especially with longshot for higher speed. You should be able to get it up to about 1,700fps and that might being the barrels in - or separate them further - either/or but at least you'll know what is needed.

Sounds like great grouping, individually - marvelous.

Wads, ball diameter and powder. All combine to regulation.

Now, with longshot grouping at 8" - centre to centre or overall - side to side? The individual groups must be about 5" to 6" apart, on centres. The spread is taken centre of group to centre of group.

I'd try some more load development - powder charge changes and maybe wads - I ran my 12 bore smoothie up to only 1,550fps, but it shot into the same group at 50yards and I was able to hold both barrels on a 10" plate, offhand at 100 meters.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylS
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #186773 - 29/07/11 02:02 AM

Just checked the Hodgdon annual mannual - with longshot and shot weighing 1 1/4oz probably close to your hard ball - 34gr. coul;d be improved upon.

Of course, wad column plays a big part and one must be careful.

I see listings for 1 1/4oz shot at 1,500fps using 35.7gr. in a Cheddite hull at 11,000PSI.

I've always thought shot produced more pressure than a ball, this being due to the friction of the shot mass against the bore's wall in passing up the tube, than does a single round ball barely touching or riding on a gas check as I loaded them. I am therefore of the mind that the longshot load could be increased carefully, watching for normal shotshell pressure signs - primers & stickiness normally.
Sealing the end of the case is a presure reducer compared to a crimp, so that itself leaves room for experimenting. You wouldn't want to change too much, as the grouping is so good - but - it might be necessary to put up with a lousy 3" overall group if they shot together.

I've purchased a .710" mould from Jeff Tanner, UK for testing in my rifled 12 bore barrel, but haven't tried it yet. In WW, they weigh roughly 500gr.

I'm told 1,700fps is easily accomplished.

Have you tried a lighter projectile9smaller ball using gas-checks to keep it centered - or the Lyman 14 bore 506gr. (WW) bullet in a red wad?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (29/07/11 02:04 AM)


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Smoke73
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #186785 - 29/07/11 05:34 AM

I was afraid someone might mention marching on. Case head expansion is still well within acceptable limits at 34 grns (.007"). Recoil will probably become somewhat unacceptable as I move forward. Weighted this gun only weights 7.25# and has become somewhat lively at 34. But a man has to do what a man has to do. As soon as the bruising heals I'll start working my way up in .5 grain increments. I'll keep an eye on caseheads and quit when I'm .010" over. I had caseheads at .013" over with triple seven but heavy buckshot loads push to a max of .010" over.
Haven't tried lighter balls as my accuracy has been so good and I would like this to be my dangerous game go to gun. I'm a believer in projectile weight so I will carry on as is. I've got a couple beautiful ribs I got from birdhunter and can't say I wouldn't like to have a proper quarter-rib on this boregun so if she don't come together we'll make her come together. Stay tuned.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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CommandCar
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #186808 - 29/07/11 12:31 PM

I don't think the winchester wads with "AA" anywhere in the product code work well in UEE cases such as the Cheddite. You might want to try the REX wad or the wad I use, the Super Spark" These seal better in the Cheddite and Fiocchi hulls.

I like Daryl's idea of trying a lighter RB. Certainly worth trying, but I understand your thought process.

Boy, I would roll crimp. You want durable ammunition. The BW is just so tender. I recall you mentioning you were worried about roll crimping. Back her off a 10% or so and give it a try. There is no problem I know of, I'm confident there would be some flap out there that I would have picked up if there was. Roll 'em. You may move impact of the individual barrels by adjusting the wad column too.

I'm not aware of anyone measuring case head expansion to determine shotshell pressure. Please be carefull. Maybe someone else can provide more info (or confirm my thoughts).


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Smoke73
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: CommandCar]
      #186824 - 29/07/11 04:24 PM

I would agree that the win AA wads don't provide a good seal. They are mostly just taking up space and my real seal is being created by the ox-yoke wad. They are cut for use in brass hulls so are very snug in the cheddite hull. I think I will try a hard card wad with two ox-yokes on top this next go and see what happens.

In regards to beeswax the stuff I am getting is hard as h$ll when dry and really adheres to the plastic hulls. During this springs bear hunt I packed the same six for three weeks. They endured rain snow and mud and got no special treatment from me. I shot them off this weekend as I won't be using that load any longer. We hunt Blacks from stands and max shot would have been 25 yards so was ok with regulation for that hunt. I have tried the roll crimps and see no reason at this point to go back. Accuracy was poor, pressures appeared to be slightly higher and it's a slow process compared to waxing. I also believe the wax helps to lubricate ball. I must admit though that in 100 degree weather things may start to soften and cause problems. I'll work on that.

I follow another forum that has a dedicated shotgun slug casting section. Case head measurements are generally accepted there as a tool for monitoring loads. You will see a .003"' jump with calipers long before your eyes or other senses tell you something is wrong.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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DarylS
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #186845 - 30/07/11 01:34 AM

Smoke - you should be able to load to the same expansion as T-7 gave - however is some bores/calibres/barrels/loads - it gets a bit flighty - with jumpy pressure readings.

I would load up some real black powder loads to set a maximum load for pressure reading - if you want the middle 'African' load, use the 5.5dram (150gr.), or perhaps 7 dram (191gr.) for the top 2 3/4" load. There was also a 3" hull with 9 dram load for a special heavily built DR, but you will not like shooting that one - I guarantee that. The 7 dram of real black powder won't be much fun either, in a light gun. My double 12 weighed only 7 1/2 pounds - 7 drams 2F kinda hurt in BP, but not the equivalent velocity load in smokeless - 1,550fps. My first shot with 7 drams spun me around like a weathercock. I needed to hold the gun a bit more deliberately, I found. After that it wasn't really bad, just not as much fun as shooting the equivelent speeds with smokeless.

Measure the case expansion - probably new hulls are best for consistency. That should give you a max. for useable loads. It might be interesting to compare those measurements to the T7.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #186873 - 30/07/11 11:31 AM

Darryl every man has his limits and is wise to know them. In the past I have been known to be "flinchy", cause was an unruly 338 win mag that I owned at a young age. I've worked hard to get rid of it and have no desire to backtrack. I do however think that the seven dram load would give an workable casehead measurement.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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DennisA
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #187334 - 05/08/11 09:07 AM

I find it amazing that you have managed to get the groups 8" apart at fifty yards with a bore size round ball in a 7.5lb gun. That is a heavy projectile in what have to be reasonably light barrels.
From my experience I think you've reached the upper limit of what can be accomplished by reducing barrel time by increasing velocity. For what it's worth I haven't found that weighting the butt has much to do with bringing the groups together. What would need to be done is to add weight to the barrels and I don't know of a good way to do that.
Have you tried the common Foster style slugs? I know all the arguments against them but in 12Ga there is enough variety of projectile weights and velocity that you can get a good idea of what weight round ball you might need to go to and at what velocity.
I seriously doubt that unsoldering the barrels and trying to regulate them will work with that heavy a projectile.


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DarylS
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DennisA]
      #187418 - 06/08/11 02:47 AM

Making the barrels heavier - or reducing the weight of the ball should bring them closer together, shouldn't it?

In the 12 bore double I worked with, I used the same ball I load in my 14 bore muzzleloader. The mould is .684", an Italian mould that looks like a Lyman mould. It casts a pure lead ball of .682" which weighs 482gr., while the mould throws a WW ball of .684" weighing 466gr.

My double shotgun put the tubes together - they'd been shortened to 26" with sights let into the top rib. I even mounted a scope on it for load development. It regulated with both smokeless and black powder- presumably, the excessive recoil of the black powder (in comparrison to smokeless) had little to do with the regulation, merely the velcoity of the balls seemed critical to the regulation of the barrels. Both the 7 dram 2F black powder load and my smokeless loads put out the same speed - 1,500fps.

The smokeless felt like it had only 1/2 the recoil.

Because we are attempting to maintain penetration and killing power, I think going to a foster (hollow) slug or foster styled slug is a bad idea. If a reduction to 1oz is necessary, then the use of cup-shaped wads such as I used to keep the ball in the middle of the bore for accuracy, would also work with a 16 bore ball. The 16 bore ball measures .662". This 1oz. ball will give even higher speeds than 14 bore or 12 bore balls, which should being the barrels closer together, shouldn't it?

I would not consider separating the tubes and attempting to re-regulate them until I'd exhausted all other methods first. A 16 bore ball of WW alloy, driven to 1,800 or 1,900fps will most certaily smash both shoulders of an elk. Those speeds should be achievable with Longshot, Herco or other slow shotgun powders like Blue Dot. IMR's SR4759 or H4227 or IMR4227 can make even higher speeds, but I've not used them - yet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DennisA
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #187419 - 06/08/11 03:17 AM

Daryl

I was suggesting the use of the Foster style slugs because they are readily available in weights from 7/8OZ to 1&1/4OZ at several velocities and are cheap. Finding one that brings the two groups together gives you a good idea of where to go with a roundball weight and velocity at least getting you in the ballpark.
You are correct that dropping the weight of the projectile should bring them together. As to adding weight to the barrels that would also work and if you've figured out a good way to do it please share it.


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DarylS
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DennisA]
      #187440 - 06/08/11 08:17 AM

No way to add weight that I'm aware of - I was merely repeating the annalogy you made, Dennis.

I understand your suggestion in trying the lighter weight slugs, however there must be a Lee mould in that range as well and probably as cost effective or more so - which if unsucessful in shooting is still useable or saleable to someone else. This is why I mentioned the moulds. I've gotten to liking undersized round balls due to the lack of fouling - so far no plastic and definitely no lead.

Note - if using black powder (real or imagined), do not use plastic - unless it is very well protected from the flame - BP flame will melt plastic onto your bore - what a mess when it includes BPowder fouling.

Seem to me, Lee moulds still around $19.95US for single cavity and $24.95 for Double Cavity. The very large sizes are available only in single cavity.

In the past I've gone the route of buying balls for testing avaiable from Track as well, but by the time I received a small bag of 25 balls, they ended up costing as much as the mould would have. I could have cast some up for testing, and kept the mould for something else (normal for me) or sold or loaned it out for someone else's testing. I find having various moulds "in stock" quite handy, in fact- like the variety of sizes I have for testing in 12 bores. comes in handy. The smoothbore of my Mossberg is backbored to .736" - so the .735" ball is perfect. The rifled barrel is .724", so the .725" mould I have work OK for the initial test. The .715" worked, but the .710" ball in gas-check cups is more accurate. I still have the .740", .684" and .662" moulds in reserve for other testing, depending on the gun/barrel(s) I'm shooting.

Buying 'extra' mould sizes, if possible, is never a bad idea.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DennisA
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #187454 - 06/08/11 04:50 PM

Daryl

I'm curious as to how you put up your roundball loads and where you get your load data. I've got a couple of 20Ga poor man's double rifles that regulate very well with the Winchster 3/4Oz Foster slugs. Like 4" at 50yds R&L. Seemed like a .600 Lee mold I have on order ought to work but I'm kind of at a lose as to any publications with data for RB loads. Any guidance would be appreciated.


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Smoke73
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DennisA]
      #187455 - 06/08/11 05:12 PM

DennisA can you clarify why you feel it would not be possible to regulate the barrels by moving them together. They have been cut to 24" and have a spread of approximately .150 at muzzle. Ellis Brown's book suggests that for an eight inch spread one needs to bring in the barrel muzzles .032" in as a starting point. Seems that I would have lots to work with or am I missing something?

As for weight we had considered filing between barrels with either lead or cerrasafe but decided there was to many things to go wrong. I can add 4-5 oz in the forearm but is that enough to matter?

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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DennisA
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #187492 - 07/08/11 03:23 AM

Sounds like you have enough room to adjust for convergance. There a lot of things to consider though. Are your barrels soft soldered or brazed? What is your skill level with soldering/brazing and machining ability. What equipment do you have access to. Separating and rejoining side by side barrels is not as simple as it may appear.
It still seems to me that dropping 1/8 to 1/4Oz in projectile weight would be the simpler thing to try first. YMMV


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DennisA
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DennisA]
      #187494 - 07/08/11 03:26 AM

Forgot something. As to finding out if the addition of weight would make a difference just pour some lead into 1/2" copper plumbing tube and duct tape it under the barrel.

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DarylS
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DennisA]
      #187496 - 07/08/11 04:03 AM

The Lyman shotshell loading books have some data - at least in 12 bore. I never looked at 20 bore. I started off using SR4576 and SR7625 as those were the slower powders I was using with my duck hunting shot loads. They developed good speeds with low pressures. I knew/figured round balls would produce less pressure than an equal weight of shot due to little or no scrubbing friction adding to the powder produced pressure.

Some extropolation was/is needed at times and is how I got started, like using data for those high speed, lower pressure (slower powders) shot loads of similar weight, reducing slightly then working as pressure signs that I could see or feel, indicated. It worked perfectly with no surprises.

This is what I did with my 12 bore double loads, prior to buying the Lyman #3 manual, which would have started me more easily, but I arrived pretty much there, anyway. Their idea of merley cutting off the petals didn't work satisfacterally for me, accuracy wise. I came up with the gas check cup, cup-up under the ball for centering the ball - that worked for me.

Instead of having decent data to start with, I had to work my way there & ended up slightly conservative to their data, but then, I was using a different, slightly smaller ball. They used a .690" which is actually the 'normal' 12 bore 'full choke' size of 40 points of choke(.040").

It was a good process though - loading my RB loads as if they were rifle loads & developing my loads by changing wads and powder charges, instead of projectiles and powder- similar, as it is. Having experience with loading shotshells helped, I'm sure. The new (current) Lyman book might give even better data as there are many newer projectiles being used these days, sabots, etc. It's possible other makers have data that can be used or extropolated from to help us load. If anyone comes across a source, here's the place to let us know of it - the source that is.

The interior of shotshells differs. Some are straight sided, some are tapered and wads are manufactured to bit both but aren't interchangable - sometimes. I have some steel shot wads that are quite large in diameter and will bulge some shotshells like AA's. The interior of the steel wad is quite cupped. Removing the petals leaves a square base cup for keeping pressures in check, with a rouned cup facing up to hold an undersized ball in the middle of the tube. Initial tests showed these worked well.

Today, with back bored barrels being popular, the old standard full, modified or imp cyl choke sizes could be changed to about anything. One must measure his bore to be sure. Friends of mine used cloth patches around the undersized balls, inside what would have been normal shotloads for 1 1/4oz. high speed 4756 loads. Their ball speeds weren't very high, but the moose shot from their duck blinds at 50 yards distance didn't know that & died where they were standing. I told them to try to shove the cloth patched ball out the chokes of their guns. If they could do that, they were OK. They did this. One fellow tested the 466gr. WW RB against a factory 1,500fps 1oz. WW slug from his 2 3/4" duck gun. The factory slug made a deep dent in the side of the 45gallon drum (50gal.US), barely cracking/splitting the metal at the bottom of the dent with a tich/bit of lead squirting through the crack. The hardened RB punched through one side then exited the other. It holed both sides with very little denting or movement of steel. He was impressed.


One must experiment.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Smoke73
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #187529 - 07/08/11 04:52 PM

Well I guess for now I'll try edging velocity up and I like the idea of adding a lead weight temporarily to see it's affect. Will try some lighter store bought slugs for a quick check on lighter weight slugs. Thank for all the imput fellas it keeps a guy from jumping the gun when there may be a simple solution. If I have to regulate the hard way it can be done. I'm a good welder and developing machinist. Our local gunsmith gives me full access to his shop at no charge and is always just across the table when I get stuck. I think he just likes helping me out because I keep coming up with projects that keep him on his toes. No simple rebarrels with me.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #189640 - 11/09/11 11:43 AM

Bought some Federeal truball slugs and they shot ok. They were the deep penetrator 1 oz but that's a little misleading. I weighed recovered slugs and they averaged around 457 grains so they obviously were not 437 grains to start with or am I out on my ounce calculation. They regulated level vertically and had a horizontal spread of 6" center to center at 55 yards. They advertise 1350 fps and I'll have to believe it as a rouge wad smashed the screen on the chrony.

I tried upping the speed on the .735 balls but all I got was flinchy and groups spread to 20+" so that game is over for now. I think I should find some .690 roundballs cast from wheel weights as they should weigh close to the truball slugs.

Oh and I tried taping weight to the barrel but took a pound and a half to do anything so that is out.

Going to look for some Federal barnes copper sabot slugs as the odd guy gets lucky and they shoot good in ok in a smooth.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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DarylS
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #189744 - 12/09/11 01:59 AM

The .690"RB in WW should weigh about 470gr. to 475gr. My .684" WW balls weigh 466gr. in old (1980's) WW.

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Smoke73
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #189898 - 14/09/11 12:31 PM

Well you can say I told you so if you want. Grabbed some Winchester 1oz 2 3/4 with an advertised speed of 1600fps. They are crossing by two inches at 50 so now what. I'm thinking 1 1/4oz at 1600 or find/load something 1 oz to 1500 or 1550 just as Daryl said to do.

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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #189899 - 14/09/11 12:37 PM

Oh and if anyone is interested the recovered winchester 1 oz foster weighed 419.5 grns shot into packed sand.

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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #189923 - 15/09/11 01:02 AM

Well, marching in the right direction is good. if you want, I can mail you some 16 bore WW balls.(about WW alloy)

All of the 14 bore (.684" balls I have are pure) I might have a few .675" (15 bore) balls.

The lighter the ball, the faster they can/will go and probably come to regulate your gun at some point.

The 16 bore balls are 1oz. but will penetrate MUCH more deeply than any dang FOSTER slug. I've smashed the shoulder on the 'other' side of a large bull moose with my 14 bore rifle, WW ball, after breaking ribs and traversing the body.

This last was just to say to not be concerned about the 'smaller' balls.

The 'cups' on the bottom of trap wads, or the inner cup of a steel shot wad will hold the ball centered in the bore for it's flight up the tube, delivering it perfectly centered at the muzzle. I'll send wads as well if you need them. PM me with directions if you'd like.

I'd like to get you set up with a good shooting load, Smoke.

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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #189993 - 16/09/11 01:20 PM

Had an interesting shoot tonight. The sights have been shooting low as a rule with the rear sight on the highest setting. Last night I milled the front down about .200" and it is now shooting great vertically but couldn't help but notice something changed regulation. The Winchesters seem to now be uncrossed and the federal truballs went from a barrel respective 6" spread to a 10" spread. Seems as though that small amount of weight on barrel ends really effected regulation. Beware of front sight changes!!!!!! On a good note 1 oz at 1600 is regulated. Now to find a good handload that matches the factory offering. Getting close now.

--------------------
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #190009 - 16/09/11 09:09 PM

Daryl
A question on your rifles bore comment:
I always thought, as a rule, if your bore (groove) was .735, rifling at about .730, a proper ball would be .735. No??
JZ


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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: jaz]
      #190022 - 17/09/11 12:46 AM

Quote:

Daryl
A question on your rifles bore comment:
I always thought, as a rule, if your bore (groove) was .735, rifling at about .730, a proper ball would be .735. No??
JZ




A normal barrel would have more than .0025" deep rifling if larger than .17 calibre, but I fully understand this was merely an example, not a real barrel.

The gooove is the larger size - ie: groove depth. The bore is the tops of the lands, ie: smallest measurement inside a barrel.

You are right, we normally run bullets at groove diameter or larger when using cast bullets.

I've found some shotguns respond well to undersized balls when such ball is made to fly straight down the tube, guided by a tight fitting wad which will also 'take' the rifling and spin the ball.

Being without grease grooves, naked balls will tend to lead foul the bore. Balls that do not touch the bore do not lead foul and I've found they shoot as well or perhaps better than larger, groove diameter balls. They certainly create another option in the search for regulation of a doublegun.

In a single barreled gun, the use of groove diameter balls is not a problem, except for the leading aspect. Coating a ball with lube has solved this for shome shooters - Tinker(of this site), I think, does this for his loads.

I've even tried cloth patched round balls as used by some of my friends for moose loads with undersized balls in their duck guns. They worked perfectly, shot cleanly (killed moose) and for me, were more accurate than a ball that was almost groove diameter and in my straight rifled 13/16 bore Husky double.

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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #190996 - 29/09/11 03:13 PM

Got some Ballistic products dangerous game slugs that I'm trying and they regulated at 5" at 75 paces with 45 grns 4756 in cheddite hulls right off the bat so I'm stuck there till I kill the big fellow that's been toying with me for two years. He's 6" across front pad so should make 7' bear. Got some US-S 570 coming from Greece for testing but my husky is overbore at .735 and these slugs don't like over.732" tubes so looking at those Brno's on tradex but would like heavy tubes if I can find em. Thanx again Daryl.

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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #191014 - 30/09/11 01:25 AM

You are quite welcome. 5" at 75yard with a smoothbore is pretty good.

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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #193992 - 17/11/11 07:26 PM

Been playing some recently with loads for the double 12 and it's been interesting. 7/8 oz slugs at 1800 seem to be right on the money as far as regulation goes but not interested in factory foster slugs. Decided to push the .735" roundballs as hard as I could with fast rifle powders as per Ed Hubel's research. Didn't like the 4227 loads but 4759 seems to be a winner for me. At 80 grns behind a 585 grn roundball this thing bellers. Velocity should be 1700+. No it didn't regulate but got close. As loads progressed higher you could watch the recoil have less and less effect on the slug. Got to about 5" spread but that's as good as it gets with these heavy rballs. Going to go th a .715" RB which should weigh 60+ grns less. Hoping the increase in velocity and reduction of recoil will be enough to bring it in the last few inches. Anyone shooting a boregun, parodox, sluggun must read Ed Hubel's 12 guage from hell thread. He knows more about shotgun handloading than any other person on the web. Ed works hard to keep his thread updated and more people should educate themselves as to Eds ways. Lots of knowledge that can crossover to everyday use. Make Eds threads a sticky.

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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #194017 - 18/11/11 04:37 AM

I've got some 4759 loads made up with the 506gr. (WW) Lyman sabot slug. I had to cut the compression section off the red field wads. I suspect gas blowby will hurt performance. Just not enough room in a 2 3/4"hull.

The 4759 loads are a good fit for round balls with minimum wads.

Guess I'll have to try for proper fit in 3" hulls- got some 3 1/2" I'm shortening.

A pure lead .715" ball weighs 1 1/4oz, or 545gr. A WW .715" should be about 520gr.

You're on the right track, smoke.

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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #194031 - 18/11/11 07:12 AM

If you like Daryl I can send up a few components so you can see how I was wadding the loads. Then hang on. I was shooting of the bench for regulation so I took a beating. Probably not bad standing. And yes I am running a 2 3/4 hull

--------------------
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #194037 - 18/11/11 07:38 AM

TKS OK. My Mossy has a .940" muzzle and reinforced breech. I'm also going to use a pure lead 14 bore ball (.690") at 495gr. with 85 to 90gr. 4759. It will be about the same as an 80gr. charge using a .735" ball, I'd expect. The gun fits well and has 'some' weight.

I'll see how that goes.

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Daryl


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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #198736 - 05/01/12 04:17 PM

Well finally bit the bullet and pulled the ribs. Reinstalled bottom rib, narrowed barrel wedge .032" and ready to install top rifle rib with proper quarter rib ( thanx birdhunter ). Between the new quarter rib and lead I poured between barrels I'll be up 12 oz. and all of it in the barrel section. Between the weight and new barrel spread we should be closer if not crossing with the heavy .735" RB loads. If they cross I've got a selection of loads that will give more barrel " toss ". For any one interested in doing there own work, be sure to get a copy of Ellis's book. I tried installing ribs with haywire method shown various places on the net. It was a disaster. Built a jig as per Ellis instructs and wouldn't you know it I got professional results.

--------------------
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #198737 - 05/01/12 05:07 PM

As a side note I am really hoping that once we get regulation with the 585 grn roundballs the 570 grn us-s slugs will shoot just as well.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

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When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #199416 - 14/01/12 11:59 AM

Had some .715 PRBs loaded up ahead of 80grains of 4759 that I'd never gotten around to shooting. They are shooting about an inch apart to there respective sides at 50yards and right barrel is an inch higher. Really like these patched balls as they were actually shining up the bore with every shot (I know Darryl I should listen).

If anyone is wondering about using 4759, I say go for it. It will turn your average shotgun, bore rifle or parodox into a cannon. One must use some common sense though and be sure to read Hubel's thread beginning to end

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #199470 - 15/01/12 05:51 AM

That's great - .715's - I take it there were WW alloy. The .710's at about 538gr. in pure should also be close.

Patched, well, how about that. Sure worked well for my buddies in their pump 12 bore duck guns - for shooting moose from the duck blind - that was in the 80's. They also worked well in my 16 bore. Smoke - what primer did you use with the 4759?

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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #199510 - 15/01/12 04:46 PM

Cheddite hull and primer, trap wad trimmed down and a lubed hard card wad. Lots of compression with a roll crimp.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #199562 - 16/01/12 06:01 AM

tks - see we doubled this up on Ed's thread. Thanks for the info.

I must order a roll crimper. Does Wholesale Sports have them? I've always used a folded crimp in the past with round balls and slugs, but the 4759 load will only allow that in 3" hulls with a wad.

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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #199563 - 16/01/12 06:18 AM

I got my roll crimper from will billizar, he is Canada's Ballistic Products dealer. He is just south of Calgary and his mail order service is reliable. About $40. He is the guy who supplies those primed cheddite hulls as well. I'll try to find you a link.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #199564 - 16/01/12 06:34 AM

Apparently I spelled his name wrong go figure

Will Bilozir
785000 Alberta, Ltd.
RR.1- Box 22  Site 11
Dewinton, Alberta, Canada
T0L 0X0

Phone/Fax 403-938-6066 or
403-938-5825

Internet Link: www.bilozir.net
Email: bismuth@bilozir.net

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #200397 - 23/01/12 05:44 PM

Loaded up a few 735 RB ahead of 80grains 4759 with trimmed trap wad and a hard card for support. Thought I would try these before I played with the shim. Total disaster. First experience with blown wads. Shots were all over even when the shots were suprising me. Couldn't figure it at first until I was walking back from targetand found some wads. Wads were splitting in the middle and I assume affecting the flight path. Found a few way to the left of my shooting lane and probably explains several shots going wild to the right. Will try again with a different wad. Can always go with the patched .715 RB but I like the idea of a ball pushing 600 grains. I've come this far!!! , may as well do it right.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #200422 - 24/01/12 04:14 AM

I'd try some without any plastic at all - just card and fiber wads. The only plastic I've used, is the base cup, cut off a AA trap wad to hold the ball in the centre of the bore - one set cup-up to hold the ball, & one cup down to seal the powder charge - with old style wads in between to give the correct height. I got amazing accuracy from a smooth double - considering no rifling.

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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #200423 - 24/01/12 04:21 AM

I understand the desire for the .735" ball. That lightweight 545gr. ball (1 1/4oz) is a bit on the light side.

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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #201856 - 07/02/12 08:19 AM

A word of caution about the 4759. It does not completely burn with lots of powder left in the barrel. In my double as the action is broke this loose powder is falling back into the action and making it difficult if not impossible to snap the action shut. I think I will go back to shooting 4756 or Longshot for now.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #201943 - 08/02/12 06:18 AM

Tks. for the heads up on the powder buring, Smoke. If the crimps are not heavy enough, or initial pressure seating the wads isn't high enough, it's difficult to get the slower burning powders to ignite.

That's why Ed's is using Fed 439 or maybe it's 239 (whichever is the right number) primers - the hottest shotshell primers available, anyway. Powder compression with the wads is important as well and difficult to get with plastics. I think rather than total plastics, a plastic cup on the powder, then 1/2" fibre and card wads are the answer to get the powder buring correctly. The plastic wads come out of the case too easily, I think. Reduce loads to start, of course, when changing anything. Normal seating pressure with card and fiber wads was 50 pounds.

I've some blue Dot I could try SR7625, which shot very accurately in my 12 bore double as well as SR4756 - right to 1,500fps chronographed using 'cupped' .684" balls (466gr. in WW, and 482gr. Pure). I think I got to 1,400fps with 7625. In the 12, they are b oth very slow burning powders for normal 1 1/4oz loads. Since I was shooting the lighter round balls, I got quite good downrange results with those powders.

Lyman has some data for blue dot and the rest in their shotshell book with .690RB's and maybe 500gr. Breneke's or some-such slugs and their 525gr. sabot slug that fits the red wads perfectly. Differeing years have different data, but most of it runs only to 1,500fps max. Of course, with 500gr. bullets or balls, that's quite enough and matches 1890's elephant loads for the early ball guns shooting 7 drams.

Everyone should try that load at least once, if your stock is up to it strength-wise. It's a bit hairy in a 7 1/2 pound 12 bore, though.

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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #201953 - 08/02/12 09:46 AM

I've now tried all type of wad combos and roll crimped with a press drill till I could see wads compressing and still not a good burn. I think I'll be sticking with the 4756

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
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tinkerModerator
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #201961 - 08/02/12 12:57 PM

Burn Black -- lots of it!!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: tinker]
      #202023 - 09/02/12 03:33 AM

W.W. Greener lists 3 loads for the 12 bore - I assume for the 2 1/2" to 2 3/4" hulls. The 7 dram load fits well in the 2 3/4" with a roll crimp.

116gr., 150gr. and 191gr. - 4 1/4 drams, 5 1/2 drams and 7 drams.

The 3" hull used up to 9 drams = 245gr. and weighed in the 12 to 13 pound range, I think. Peter in Denmark has just such a double gun.

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tinkerModerator
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #202028 - 09/02/12 04:07 AM

Sarg, from NZ has the big J&W Tolley mondo-charge 12bore rifle.
It's a beast and I'd love to own it.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: tinker]
      #205756 - 22/03/12 03:52 PM

Ok you got me. I had found it was shooting the ballistic products slugs ok but I started out for a roundball gun and that's what I'm going to get. Pulled both ribs last night, cleaned the tubes and have re soldered the ends of the tubes as close together as possible. I've loaded some .735 ahead of 150 grains of Goex. I'll see where I'm at tomorrow. Wish me luck.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #205760 - 22/03/12 04:50 PM

Go on the Goex!
That load will sound nice.
I've run more with the 16bore and roundball.
At a certain point you transcend big plumes of smoke and end up with a ripping crack with a jet of fire and less smoke.
That's when the burn is really cooking.
Better have a good wad column...


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Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: tinker]
      #205776 - 23/03/12 01:42 AM

Really no room for a wad column. I could only fit in a hard card under the ball. I measured by volume with the wife's muzzleloader rigging. Maybe I should have weighed it out. Oh well that's the beauty of black. Hard to build to much pressure in a shotshell. Stay tuned.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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Smoke73
.300 member


Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #205815 - 23/03/12 03:55 PM

Charge weighed in at 150.5 grains so volume measure is on. After barrels were soldered at ends I wrapped with a band clamp. Then used solder to build a bead on the clamp and decided to rip. Had to really try to keep vertical level with just a front bead (filed to a narrow blade). Horizontal was easy to pin however. At that it looks like the barrels now are shooting to there respective sides with a 3 1/2" spread (50 paces)with the 150 grains FFg Goex behind a .735 Roundball. Looks like I can get it here now playing with powder charge and need to add some weight to the barrels to simulate weight with proper ribs and sights installed.

As for the Black Powder experience it was fun. I laughed like hell the first time I pulled the trigger. It bellowed and barked and jumped out of my unready hands. Funny thing is the felt recoil on shoulder was more tolerable than many other heavy charges. Let me tell you, if you can get IMR4759 burning correctly Black is a walk in the park. I'm glad I decided to quit using 4759 before it shook my gun and my nerves to pieces. Stay tuned.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #205817 - 23/03/12 04:15 PM

Black is where it's at.
It's easy as can be to load, ignite, and clean.

Get a chronograph in front of that thing and let us know how that load is running - I'd love to see the velocities and consistency.


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Smoke73
.300 member


Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: tinker]
      #205839 - 23/03/12 11:38 PM

Yeah everything is easy except hanging on!!! I'll see what I can do about a chronograph as the last one ate a wad. I think once I get some weight on the barrels I can come close to regulation and loose some of that vertical jump in the recoil. It was pretty fun.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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Smoke73
.300 member


Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #205919 - 25/03/12 05:21 AM

Some interesting info on Husqvarna Shotguns. Sweden never had proofing laws because they believed in the product of choice Husqvarna.

From research about the Husqvarna shotguns test program the following conclusion can be drawn:
Guns marked on the barrel "Special Steel" or “Niklstal” are intended for smokeless powder. This information came from the Husqvarna museum.
The proof mark on Husqvarna shotguns can be a small or large letter H with a crown. From this it cannot be concluded whether the weapon was proof-fired for nitro- or for black powder, only that the gun WAS proof-fired. Research into this marking continues.
Some facts:
Generally, the guns were fitted with steel barrels, but damascus barrels were delivered on demand as late as 1908.
Translation of the test program and quality control from the 1902 catalogue.
"When a barrel bursts, or the gun, for some other reason is damaged during shooting, the gun manufacturer, in most cases, gets the blame with the argument that the reason for the damage is use of bad quality materials, or manufacturing flaw. That such faults should exist on guns delivered from us, we consider that we have prevented, partly by using only best quality materials, and partly, and above all, by the most accurate inspections, and rigorous tests. I.e. the barrels on guns delivered from us have passed two firing tests. The first test, made when the barrel has been pretreated, is carried out with tripled black powder charge, and fivefold shot load. The second test, made when the gun is ready for delivery, is carried out with double powder charge and double shot load. If the barrels and the action has passed there tests, without in any way having been altered, they will not be damaged when using normal powder charges and shot loads, independent of the charge being black powder or suitable low smoke powder. Additionally, from each new set of barrel raw material, samples for test firing are taken. This test firing takes place in such a way that the barrel, drilled to cal. 16, and the outer diameter turned to a diameter that correspond to that of a typical 16 cal. gun, is charged with 14,25 grams of black powder and, initially, at the first shot, loaded with 85 grams of shots. The shot load i increased in such a way that, at the 24th firing, the shot load is 456 grams. For the 25th firing, the charge is increased to 19 grams. Firing continues, for each three firings, the charge is increased, for each firing the shot load is increased, until the barrel bursts. Generally, our barrels, made of Swedish steel, will hold a charge of 14.25 grams of powder, and a shot load of 400 grams. Barrels made of special steel will hold a charge of 23,75 grams of powder and 860 grams of shot load."


Top Lever shotguns
As concluded before, Husqvarna shotguns made after 1908 are designed for smokeless powder. The serial number at the end of 1908 was 55000.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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Smoke73
.300 member


Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #205937 - 25/03/12 01:28 PM

The following is a target shot early this morning please review and feel free to comment. All loads were in a cheddite hull utilizing hard cards and felt wads where needed (smokeless). Please be aware that I in no way advise the use of 777 at these levels. While casehead expansion was acceptable recoil was nothing short of insane. I'm a young, strong and experienced shooter and I could not control this firearm with this load. 150 grains of Black seemed tame after these. On shot tabs B=Black L=Longshot 4756=IMR4756 777=777. I will post casehead measurements on another post


Much to Daryl's delight(I'm sure) 150 grains shot the best and deserves a proper grouping.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

Edited by CptCurl (25/03/12 11:01 PM)


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Smoke73
.300 member


Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #205939 - 25/03/12 01:30 PM

Blackpowder

120 grains = .812"
150 grains = .814"
160 grains = .814"

777

150 grains = .816"*


SR4756

36 grains = .812"
38 grains = .812"
39 grains = .812"

Longshot

31 grains = .811"
35 grains = .814"

All in cheddite hull with a base of .806"

For comparison Remington 00 Express buck has the same base of .806 and expands to .816"*

* largest measurement directly at base.  All others further up the brass

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie


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