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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #189898 - 14/09/11 12:31 PM

Well you can say I told you so if you want. Grabbed some Winchester 1oz 2 3/4 with an advertised speed of 1600fps. They are crossing by two inches at 50 so now what. I'm thinking 1 1/4oz at 1600 or find/load something 1 oz to 1500 or 1550 just as Daryl said to do.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #189899 - 14/09/11 12:37 PM

Oh and if anyone is interested the recovered winchester 1 oz foster weighed 419.5 grns shot into packed sand.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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DarylS
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #189923 - 15/09/11 01:02 AM

Well, marching in the right direction is good. if you want, I can mail you some 16 bore WW balls.(about WW alloy)

All of the 14 bore (.684" balls I have are pure) I might have a few .675" (15 bore) balls.

The lighter the ball, the faster they can/will go and probably come to regulate your gun at some point.

The 16 bore balls are 1oz. but will penetrate MUCH more deeply than any dang FOSTER slug. I've smashed the shoulder on the 'other' side of a large bull moose with my 14 bore rifle, WW ball, after breaking ribs and traversing the body.

This last was just to say to not be concerned about the 'smaller' balls.

The 'cups' on the bottom of trap wads, or the inner cup of a steel shot wad will hold the ball centered in the bore for it's flight up the tube, delivering it perfectly centered at the muzzle. I'll send wads as well if you need them. PM me with directions if you'd like.

I'd like to get you set up with a good shooting load, Smoke.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #189993 - 16/09/11 01:20 PM

Had an interesting shoot tonight. The sights have been shooting low as a rule with the rear sight on the highest setting. Last night I milled the front down about .200" and it is now shooting great vertically but couldn't help but notice something changed regulation. The Winchesters seem to now be uncrossed and the federal truballs went from a barrel respective 6" spread to a 10" spread. Seems as though that small amount of weight on barrel ends really effected regulation. Beware of front sight changes!!!!!! On a good note 1 oz at 1600 is regulated. Now to find a good handload that matches the factory offering. Getting close now.

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Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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jaz
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Posts: 188
Loc: Northeast US
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #190009 - 16/09/11 09:09 PM

Daryl
A question on your rifles bore comment:
I always thought, as a rule, if your bore (groove) was .735, rifling at about .730, a proper ball would be .735. No??
JZ

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DarylS
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: jaz]
      #190022 - 17/09/11 12:46 AM

Quote:

Daryl
A question on your rifles bore comment:
I always thought, as a rule, if your bore (groove) was .735, rifling at about .730, a proper ball would be .735. No??
JZ



A normal barrel would have more than .0025" deep rifling if larger than .17 calibre, but I fully understand this was merely an example, not a real barrel.

The gooove is the larger size - ie: groove depth. The bore is the tops of the lands, ie: smallest measurement inside a barrel.

You are right, we normally run bullets at groove diameter or larger when using cast bullets.

I've found some shotguns respond well to undersized balls when such ball is made to fly straight down the tube, guided by a tight fitting wad which will also 'take' the rifling and spin the ball.

Being without grease grooves, naked balls will tend to lead foul the bore. Balls that do not touch the bore do not lead foul and I've found they shoot as well or perhaps better than larger, groove diameter balls. They certainly create another option in the search for regulation of a doublegun.

In a single barreled gun, the use of groove diameter balls is not a problem, except for the leading aspect. Coating a ball with lube has solved this for shome shooters - Tinker(of this site), I think, does this for his loads.

I've even tried cloth patched round balls as used by some of my friends for moose loads with undersized balls in their duck guns. They worked perfectly, shot cleanly (killed moose) and for me, were more accurate than a ball that was almost groove diameter and in my straight rifled 13/16 bore Husky double.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #190996 - 29/09/11 03:13 PM

Got some Ballistic products dangerous game slugs that I'm trying and they regulated at 5" at 75 paces with 45 grns 4756 in cheddite hulls right off the bat so I'm stuck there till I kill the big fellow that's been toying with me for two years. He's 6" across front pad so should make 7' bear. Got some US-S 570 coming from Greece for testing but my husky is overbore at .735 and these slugs don't like over.732" tubes so looking at those Brno's on tradex but would like heavy tubes if I can find em. Thanx again Daryl.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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DarylS
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #191014 - 30/09/11 01:25 AM

You are quite welcome. 5" at 75yard with a smoothbore is pretty good.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #193992 - 17/11/11 07:26 PM

Been playing some recently with loads for the double 12 and it's been interesting. 7/8 oz slugs at 1800 seem to be right on the money as far as regulation goes but not interested in factory foster slugs. Decided to push the .735" roundballs as hard as I could with fast rifle powders as per Ed Hubel's research. Didn't like the 4227 loads but 4759 seems to be a winner for me. At 80 grns behind a 585 grn roundball this thing bellers. Velocity should be 1700+. No it didn't regulate but got close. As loads progressed higher you could watch the recoil have less and less effect on the slug. Got to about 5" spread but that's as good as it gets with these heavy rballs. Going to go th a .715" RB which should weigh 60+ grns less. Hoping the increase in velocity and reduction of recoil will be enough to bring it in the last few inches. Anyone shooting a boregun, parodox, sluggun must read Ed Hubel's 12 guage from hell thread. He knows more about shotgun handloading than any other person on the web. Ed works hard to keep his thread updated and more people should educate themselves as to Eds ways. Lots of knowledge that can crossover to everyday use. Make Eds threads a sticky.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #194017 - 18/11/11 04:37 AM

I've got some 4759 loads made up with the 506gr. (WW) Lyman sabot slug. I had to cut the compression section off the red field wads. I suspect gas blowby will hurt performance. Just not enough room in a 2 3/4"hull.

The 4759 loads are a good fit for round balls with minimum wads.

Guess I'll have to try for proper fit in 3" hulls- got some 3 1/2" I'm shortening.

A pure lead .715" ball weighs 1 1/4oz, or 545gr. A WW .715" should be about 520gr.

You're on the right track, smoke.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #194031 - 18/11/11 07:12 AM

If you like Daryl I can send up a few components so you can see how I was wadding the loads. Then hang on. I was shooting of the bench for regulation so I took a beating. Probably not bad standing. And yes I am running a 2 3/4 hull

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #194037 - 18/11/11 07:38 AM

TKS OK. My Mossy has a .940" muzzle and reinforced breech. I'm also going to use a pure lead 14 bore ball (.690") at 495gr. with 85 to 90gr. 4759. It will be about the same as an 80gr. charge using a .735" ball, I'd expect. The gun fits well and has 'some' weight.

I'll see how that goes.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #198736 - 05/01/12 04:17 PM

Well finally bit the bullet and pulled the ribs. Reinstalled bottom rib, narrowed barrel wedge .032" and ready to install top rifle rib with proper quarter rib ( thanx birdhunter ). Between the new quarter rib and lead I poured between barrels I'll be up 12 oz. and all of it in the barrel section. Between the weight and new barrel spread we should be closer if not crossing with the heavy .735" RB loads. If they cross I've got a selection of loads that will give more barrel " toss ". For any one interested in doing there own work, be sure to get a copy of Ellis's book. I tried installing ribs with haywire method shown various places on the net. It was a disaster. Built a jig as per Ellis instructs and wouldn't you know it I got professional results.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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Smoke73
.300 member


Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #198737 - 05/01/12 05:07 PM

As a side note I am really hoping that once we get regulation with the 585 grn roundballs the 570 grn us-s slugs will shoot just as well.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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Smoke73
.300 member


Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #199416 - 14/01/12 11:59 AM

Had some .715 PRBs loaded up ahead of 80grains of 4759 that I'd never gotten around to shooting. They are shooting about an inch apart to there respective sides at 50yards and right barrel is an inch higher. Really like these patched balls as they were actually shining up the bore with every shot (I know Darryl I should listen).

If anyone is wondering about using 4759, I say go for it. It will turn your average shotgun, bore rifle or parodox into a cannon. One must use some common sense though and be sure to read Hubel's thread beginning to end

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #199470 - 15/01/12 05:51 AM

That's great - .715's - I take it there were WW alloy. The .710's at about 538gr. in pure should also be close.

Patched, well, how about that. Sure worked well for my buddies in their pump 12 bore duck guns - for shooting moose from the duck blind - that was in the 80's. They also worked well in my 16 bore. Smoke - what primer did you use with the 4759?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #199510 - 15/01/12 04:46 PM

Cheddite hull and primer, trap wad trimmed down and a lubed hard card wad. Lots of compression with a roll crimp.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #199562 - 16/01/12 06:01 AM

tks - see we doubled this up on Ed's thread. Thanks for the info.

I must order a roll crimper. Does Wholesale Sports have them? I've always used a folded crimp in the past with round balls and slugs, but the 4759 load will only allow that in 3" hulls with a wad.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #199563 - 16/01/12 06:18 AM

I got my roll crimper from will billizar, he is Canada's Ballistic Products dealer. He is just south of Calgary and his mail order service is reliable. About $40. He is the guy who supplies those primed cheddite hulls as well. I'll try to find you a link.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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Smoke73
.300 member


Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #199564 - 16/01/12 06:34 AM

Apparently I spelled his name wrong go figure

Will Bilozir
785000 Alberta, Ltd.
RR.1- Box 22  Site 11
Dewinton, Alberta, Canada
T0L 0X0

Phone/Fax 403-938-6066 or
403-938-5825

Internet Link: www.bilozir.net
Email: bismuth@bilozir.net

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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Smoke73
.300 member


Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #200397 - 23/01/12 05:44 PM

Loaded up a few 735 RB ahead of 80grains 4759 with trimmed trap wad and a hard card for support. Thought I would try these before I played with the shim. Total disaster. First experience with blown wads. Shots were all over even when the shots were suprising me. Couldn't figure it at first until I was walking back from targetand found some wads. Wads were splitting in the middle and I assume affecting the flight path. Found a few way to the left of my shooting lane and probably explains several shots going wild to the right. Will try again with a different wad. Can always go with the patched .715 RB but I like the idea of a ball pushing 600 grains. I've come this far!!! , may as well do it right.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #200422 - 24/01/12 04:14 AM

I'd try some without any plastic at all - just card and fiber wads. The only plastic I've used, is the base cup, cut off a AA trap wad to hold the ball in the centre of the bore - one set cup-up to hold the ball, & one cup down to seal the powder charge - with old style wads in between to give the correct height. I got amazing accuracy from a smooth double - considering no rifling.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #200423 - 24/01/12 04:21 AM

I understand the desire for the .735" ball. That lightweight 545gr. ball (1 1/4oz) is a bit on the light side.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
Posts: 164
Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #201856 - 07/02/12 08:19 AM

A word of caution about the 4759. It does not completely burn with lots of powder left in the barrel. In my double as the action is broke this loose powder is falling back into the action and making it difficult if not impossible to snap the action shut. I think I will go back to shooting 4756 or Longshot for now.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Regulating a 12 bore [Re: Smoke73]
      #201943 - 08/02/12 06:18 AM

Tks. for the heads up on the powder buring, Smoke. If the crimps are not heavy enough, or initial pressure seating the wads isn't high enough, it's difficult to get the slower burning powders to ignite.

That's why Ed's is using Fed 439 or maybe it's 239 (whichever is the right number) primers - the hottest shotshell primers available, anyway. Powder compression with the wads is important as well and difficult to get with plastics. I think rather than total plastics, a plastic cup on the powder, then 1/2" fibre and card wads are the answer to get the powder buring correctly. The plastic wads come out of the case too easily, I think. Reduce loads to start, of course, when changing anything. Normal seating pressure with card and fiber wads was 50 pounds.

I've some blue Dot I could try SR7625, which shot very accurately in my 12 bore double as well as SR4756 - right to 1,500fps chronographed using 'cupped' .684" balls (466gr. in WW, and 482gr. Pure). I think I got to 1,400fps with 7625. In the 12, they are b oth very slow burning powders for normal 1 1/4oz loads. Since I was shooting the lighter round balls, I got quite good downrange results with those powders.

Lyman has some data for blue dot and the rest in their shotshell book with .690RB's and maybe 500gr. Breneke's or some-such slugs and their 525gr. sabot slug that fits the red wads perfectly. Differeing years have different data, but most of it runs only to 1,500fps max. Of course, with 500gr. bullets or balls, that's quite enough and matches 1890's elephant loads for the early ball guns shooting 7 drams.

Everyone should try that load at least once, if your stock is up to it strength-wise. It's a bit hairy in a 7 1/2 pound 12 bore, though.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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