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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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CommandCar
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Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 292
Loc: East Coast, USA
Restocking a Paradox
      #173279 - 17/12/10 11:44 AM

The stock on my Evans has had it. Broke through the wrist, just behind the tang, today. It's been on the way out due to oil damage, and I previously had the bad wood hogged out and epoxied.

I have a couple questions on restocking.

I'd like to hear who is recommended for this task?

How much should it cost?

The original dimensions are pretty close to correct for me, what if I ask for changes like more cast off, or different length stock? Will I need to reregulate?

Is there anything I should watch out for?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts


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DarylS
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Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: CommandCar]
      #173309 - 18/12/10 03:55 AM

Infortunate happening. Sorry to hear of the break.

Are you supplying the wood?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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CommandCar
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Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: DarylS]
      #173310 - 18/12/10 04:08 AM

Daryl,

Thank you for your sympathies.

I had long ago realized that a new stock was in order. I am fortunate to have this to occur after sucessful ammunition development (aprox 600 rounds). Now at least, I have a baseline performance to try to duplicate with the new stock. Also, now I can justify the expense...


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gatsby
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Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: CommandCar]
      #173313 - 18/12/10 05:31 AM

Do you have a photo or two of the gun? Evans made some very nice guns. How much original finish, engraving etc is on the gun?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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470evans
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Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: gatsby]
      #173315 - 18/12/10 06:22 AM

If you want the job done right call Paul Hodgins. He is expensive but worth every penney if you plan on keeping the gun. Paul stocked my Manton 400 and did an exceptional job.

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Anonymous
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Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: 470evans]
      #173319 - 18/12/10 09:03 AM

Quote:

If you want the job done right call Paul Hodgins. He is expensive but worth every penney if you plan on keeping the gun. Paul stocked my Manton 400 and did an exceptional job.




Expensive is putting it mildly. He charges $4,500.00 for a buttstock now and $3,000.00 for a splinter forend! And at least a year time wise. His prices are absurd, he must think he's still at the bench at H&H.

Commandcar: Try Steve Billeb he is the founder of the custom gun makers guild and is one hell of a stockmaker. His prices are very reasonable and you can have your gun back within 6-8 months done to proper English specs.

22 Vista View Lane, Cody, WY 82414 Telephone: (307)587-4278


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CommandCar
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Tragedy! [Re: gatsby]
      #173339 - 18/12/10 01:16 PM

Here are some photos.








Thanks for the leads.

Anyone have an opinion on adding 1/4-3/8" of cast on the new stock. Would that throw off the regulation?

Edited by CptCurl (20/12/10 11:31 AM)


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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: Tragedy! [Re: CommandCar]
      #173340 - 18/12/10 01:48 PM

Your real concern on regulation is this:


As you've been developing those nice looking loads we see in that ammunition belt, it's quite possible that the wrist of that stock has been flexing more than a good and sound stock would.
Getting that gun re-stocked will very likely make the gun more rigid and less active through the wrist.
You might find that the load you have there may need to be adjusted in order to get the gun shooting properly again.

Would you need to have the gun re-regulated?
Maybe.
Judging by the looks of it, the energy and expense of a new stock and re-regulation would be worth it.

Sorry to see the wood's gone chooch on such a nice piece, but it seems that you saw it coming, so carry on and stay in the fight!







Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Tragedy! [Re: tinker]
      #173380 - 19/12/10 05:13 AM

I imagine you would be looking at around £5 to 7,000 here from a good (not London) maker and good figured walnut... At least you don't need the fore-end done. That helps

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szihn
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Re: Tragedy! [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #173388 - 19/12/10 07:23 AM

Remember the kids story of the "Emperor’s New Cloths" when you see the prices some of these men are trying to charge.
Paying more doesn't necessarily mean you are getting more then you can get for less money.

There are 2 schools of thought for doing business.

The most common is the one put forth by P.T. Barnum;
He said it was “morally wrong to allow a fool to keep his money”.

The other is put forth by Jesus Christ:
We should love our neighbor as we love ourselves. We should all be our brother’s keeper.

Choose wisely


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CommandCar
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Re: Tragedy! [Re: szihn]
      #173398 - 19/12/10 09:07 AM

Amen

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bonanza
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Re: Tragedy! [Re: szihn]
      #173403 - 19/12/10 09:24 AM

I bet you could get it back shooting with a repair job while you work some overtime to get it re-stocked.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Tragedy! [Re: bonanza]
      #173418 - 19/12/10 09:40 PM

Very true - I was thinking high end because it is an Evans. But outside those circles, a good stocker would probably charge £500 for a boxlock and 1,000 for a sidelock, plus wood. Of course the $ is also a bit weak at the moment against the £. What ballpark are you looking at in $ terms over there?

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DarylS
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Re: Tragedy! [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #173439 - 20/12/10 06:42 AM

Yes - I was thinking a good gun maker here would charge in the neighbourhood of $2,000 CDN + wood. I know my brother would charge about that and do a job as good as the original - if he was still making rifles for trade, that is.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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nitro450exp
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Reged: 06/09/07
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Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: Tragedy! [Re: DarylS]
      #173444 - 20/12/10 09:25 AM

Commandcar

How tall is that brass on the Paradox loads ?
Are the loads on the right on 16mm brass ?

Thanks

My condolences on the stock.

I had my WW Greener restocked here in MI for a very fair price and the job was excellent.
Under 1000 including wood.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR


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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
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Re: Tragedy! [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #173446 - 20/12/10 09:36 AM

Quote:

I imagine you would be looking at around £5 to 7,000 here from a good (not London) maker and good figured walnut... At least you don't need the fore-end done. That helps




Overpriced by the mile!. As I have had a few gunprojects over the time, I have realized that most english gunmakers are simply overpriced.


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CommandCar
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Re: Tragedy! [Re: nitro450exp]
      #173455 - 20/12/10 11:55 AM

Nitro,

The brass on the loaded ball cartridges is 25mm (1").

The primed hulls are UEE straight wall plastic made by Cheddite, so internally, all brass heights are all the same - fiocchi hulls too.

New Cheddite paper hulls 12 and sometimes 20 ga. as well as the above plastics are available at http://www.grafs.com/. Ched paper hulls are also internally the same, but I believe there is either different roll crimp pressure, or slightly different wall thickness between the two. Plastic test loads regulated first for me. I took a break to do some hunting, shot a dandy buck, and you know where I am now...

Balistic products also stocks cheddite hulls.

The shot loads on the right are factory Gamebore paper w/ fiber wad. I did not measure them, but 5/8" sounds about right.


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Tragedy! [Re: CommandCar]
      #173476 - 20/12/10 07:30 PM

RigbyMauser - £500-1,000 for the work and £4-6K for top quality, well figured Turkish walnut? I haven't had it done, but where did you get the walnut and how much ballpark are you talking?

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Re: Tragedy! [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #173576 - 22/12/10 02:56 AM

Quote:

RigbyMauser - £500-1,000 for the work and £4-6K for top quality, well figured Turkish walnut? I haven't had it done, but where did you get the walnut and how much ballpark are you talking?




Walnut...best quality for at least under half price, of what stated here.

http://www.dressels.com/id153.htm

That wood that is on the paradoxgun in questioning isn`t the most expensive wood either..Just look at Dresslers homepage, and I am sure something similar will match for about $1500...


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Tragedy! [Re: rigbymauser]
      #173578 - 22/12/10 04:47 AM

Plus shipping and duty to the UK, but I take your point!
This is what my estimate gets you http://www.mckaybrown.com/www.mckaybrown.com/Wood.html


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470evans
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Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA
Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: ]
      #173733 - 24/12/10 05:45 AM

Quote:

Quote:

If you want the job done right call Paul Hodgins. He is expensive but worth every penney if you plan on keeping the gun. Paul stocked my Manton 400 and did an exceptional job.




Expensive is putting it mildly. He charges $4,500.00 for a buttstock now and $3,000.00 for a splinter forend! And at least a year time wise. His prices are absurd, he must think he's still at the bench at H&H.

Commandcar: Try Steve Billeb he is the founder of the custom gun makers guild and is one hell of a stockmaker. His prices are very reasonable and you can have your gun back within 6-8 months done to proper English specs.

22 Vista View Lane, Cody, WY 82414 Telephone: (307)587-4278




Since I need my Jeffery sidelock restocked I called and spoke with Steve Billeb this morning. He is a very nice guy but admitted he hasn't stocked any British doubles. We spoke at length about how important it is to get the correct style and he felt if he had an original stock to go off he felt he could do a good job. In my case there isn't and he suggested a few other stockers to consider.


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Anonymous
Unregistered




Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: 470evans]
      #173737 - 24/12/10 08:18 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

If you want the job done right call Paul Hodgins. He is expensive but worth every penney if you plan on keeping the gun. Paul stocked my Manton 400 and did an exceptional job.




Expensive is putting it mildly. He charges $4,500.00 for a buttstock now and $3,000.00 for a splinter forend! And at least a year time wise. His prices are absurd, he must think he's still at the bench at H&H.

Commandcar: Try Steve Billeb he is the founder of the custom gun makers guild and is one hell of a stockmaker. His prices are very reasonable and you can have your gun back within 6-8 months done to proper English specs.

22 Vista View Lane, Cody, WY 82414 Telephone: (307)587-4278




Since I need my Jeffery sidelock restocked I called and spoke with Steve Billeb this morning. He is a very nice guy but admitted he hasn't stocked any British doubles. We spoke at length about how important it is to get the correct style and he felt if he had an original stock to go off he felt he could do a good job. In my case there isn't and he suggested a few other stockers to consider.




That's strange he would say that to you. Because he stocked my WW Greener 360 #2 and also did a Fraser boxlock for me that turned out great years ago. Sounds like perhaps he didn't want to take your project? Of course mine were boxlock guns like the Evans in question, I know its a much bigger task to do a sidelock which may have been his hesitation with your inquiry.


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470evans
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Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: ]
      #173739 - 24/12/10 09:48 AM

Maybe so, he said he does American doubles. I'm very particular and don't want to have any other jobs not done right. I'm still cleaning up a mess from a restock done on my Holland Paradox by a well known guy.

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CommandCar
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Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: 470evans]
      #186097 - 19/07/11 01:54 PM

Still in regulation!

Fired by the stocker, not done yet, getting the finishing touches.



lower left, upper right = 50 yrds

upper left and lower right - 100 yrds

Edited by CptCurl (19/07/11 08:26 PM)


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bwanabobftw
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Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: CommandCar]
      #186119 - 20/07/11 01:39 AM

Makes me want to get mine "up and going" even more !!!!!! Well done.
Robert


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rigbymauser
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Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #186130 - 20/07/11 04:56 AM


I just spoked to Paul Roberts of London here today regarding my own S&B gun. He only knew of a very very few paradox guns that actually shot well. Most them he have had his hands on to, wheren`t accurate at all. He knew only of one paradoxgun for sure that shot well, which belonged to an American, who had experimented a lot, to get it to a useful shooting. He had been at the Lancasters here today, and had spoked with them regarding the ovalbored guns..most guns with oval bore lost accuracy after a few hundred shots or sometimes even less.

What I see here on this thread here looks very promising.


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Tom_H
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Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: rigbymauser]
      #186132 - 20/07/11 05:46 AM

That is accurate.

I could understand being happy about that. Being from the east coast, I doubt that you would be undergunned very often with the woods ranges that we have to deal with here.

Fantastic

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny


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CommandCar
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Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: rigbymauser]
      #186233 - 21/07/11 08:40 AM

Quote:


I just spoked to Paul Roberts of London here today regarding my own S&B gun. He only knew of a very very few paradox guns that actually shot well. Most them he have had his hands on to, wheren`t accurate at all. He knew only of one paradoxgun for sure that shot well, which belonged to an American, who had experimented a lot, to get it to a useful shooting. He had been at the Lancasters here today, and had spoked with them regarding the ovalbored guns..most guns with oval bore lost accuracy after a few hundred shots or sometimes even less.

What I see here on this thread here looks very promising.




I can see where that statement comes from. There are just so many variables it is tough to get the right load combination. The variables are powder, charge, wadding, cases, primers, and bullet weight, alloy, shape, and diameter. Don't forget condition of the gun too.

I just checked my notes and counted 80 different loads that were tested (the average was 6 rounds per combination = alot of shooting and testing). More than a few produced OK groups at 50 yards, but when fired at 100, they would not "group", in fact, they often would not show up on the target! I stopped at the first load that would stay in a 6" bull at 100 yards. That was my requirement, because Evans is a respected maker, so I figured if it had a 100 yard leaf, it must have been accurate @ 100 yards.

If you approach the B&S challenge with the realization that the whole system (paradox) is some sort of compromise when compared to either a game gun or double rifle you will be ready for the challange. I can hardly speculate why a certain slug/wad/alloy/case/primer/powder/diameter works. It must be some sort of Voodoo. Here are my notes for the winning load combination (I am only changing the charge of Blue Dot @100yrds):


Blue Dot:

36 grains - 1,125 fps, Pizza pie size groups......

35 grains - 1,090 fps, Hubcap size groups

34 grains - 1,070 fps, Winner!

Normal reloaders are talking about getting from 1.25" groups to MOA or subMOA groups. Here, if you are off by a grain, you are done and might pass on a really close load. It is just crazy.

If you have a regular Holland (BP or 24-30 grain cordite) follow Sherman Bell's loading methods in DGJ and let me know if it is that easy.


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rigbymauser
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Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: CommandCar]
      #186316 - 22/07/11 06:08 PM

Hello CC.

The S&B gun I have doesn`t even stabilize the ball..it shoots all over the place.

MIne isn`t a H&H with ratchet rifling like H&H, but an ovalbore or "hairrifling" as Paul said.

The H&H standard paradox ammo fit well enough down through the barrels to become squezzed just before the muzzle.
Here the barrelflats:



According to the proof-act th barrels should be marked "S&B" or a "C" if the barrels are choked, but neither is there?.

The barrels are VERY oval indeed, and the squezzes down 2,5" before the muzzle but still remains oval to the muzzle. Been measuring the muzzle with a 3 dot laser the ovalness takes a spin before the muzzle.

The gun weighs almost 8,5Ibs which suggest a heavyload ballgun, but if it isn`t why would anybody make a ovalbored gun to roundballs?.
If this gun lets say were made for roundballs, the expresssight for 100yards is very optimistic, as most guns made for roundballs often were set for 50-60 yards.
I can see this gun has been reproofed for 70mm shells, however there is a mark which I don`t understand where is says "SD"?. Any body knows what that means?.

Edited by CptCurl (23/07/11 11:12 AM)


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gatsby
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Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: rigbymauser]
      #186351 - 23/07/11 06:01 AM

RM

That a gun could come off regulation in as little as 100 rounds defies logic. Particularly if you are shooting lead bullets Try shooting your oval bore gun with a paradox conical slightly undersized to the bore and paper patch it for contact. I think getting the right fit will be the key.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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CommandCar
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Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: rigbymauser]
      #186353 - 23/07/11 07:13 AM

RM,

My Evans did not group either. That's the Voodoo. I've read that some B&S guns behave like normal double ball rifles. Mine did not. It never worked, until it did.

You should start with Sherman Bell's loading methodology and a 740ish grain Fosbery slug. As for diameter, not sure, but I'd guess you would take the long diameter of the oval plus the short diameter of the oval and divide by 2. Then use bullets of this diameter to .003" under. I'm guessing here, maybe someone knows how to calculate bullet diameter for oval bore rifles? RS figured out which diameter to use in his Colindian, but left it out of the article in the DGJ. He obviously wants to keep these things cheap.

I doubt you have a RB gun. Everyone was competing with the Paradox, which used an elongated slug.


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rigbymauser
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Re: Restocking a Paradox [Re: CommandCar]
      #186385 - 23/07/11 05:14 PM


THanks Gatsby and CC for sharing. I`LL work up some castbullets of subdiameter. I too feel very confident that this gun was made to shoot conicals for sure. Everything indicate this.


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