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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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CHAPUISARMES
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Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA

Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
#194191 - 20/11/11 01:18 PM

Looking Really Good, you have time to get the group size down but it's still a 'Minute of Buffalo'

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

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nitro450exp
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
#194933 - 26/11/11 02:32 PM

Update 11/26/11

Well weather was 60 Deg. WOW.
I went to the range with the DR.
Shot 6 rounds at 25Yds from bench in led sled.
Lightfield 20ga 3" Magnum 7/8 oz Hybrid Exp.

25 yds.

50 yds.

Both targets overlaid.

Shot 100 yds also 3" x 1.5" 4 shot group.
Wind was blowing holes were not clean.
Maybe not stabilizing.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by CptCurl (26/11/11 11:43 PM)

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tinker
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
#194934 - 26/11/11 02:45 PM

I have had wadding fly with the roundball at 75yds out of a 16bore double rifle.

Did you recover the sabots from those factory slug loads?
If so, how far from the muzzles..?

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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nitro450exp
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Loc: Michigan, USA

Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: tinker]
#194937 - 26/11/11 03:44 PM

Tinker

Sabots were found at about 20 yds.
Wad is pushed into the rear of the slug.
Found slug still attached in backstop.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by nitro450exp (26/11/11 03:45 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
#194993 - 27/11/11 08:57 AM

I think consistancy would be better if the wads always came off, or always stayed.

This is a rifle and should shoot as one. Wind can raly screw things up, though.

The lower left hand hits make the gun look as if it needs more work.

If they were accidental & the range at 50yards or so it looks fine.

That would indicate a slight crossing, which if shooting together at 50yards will make them exactly bore axis apart at 100, then double width at 200 - or is it 150?

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
#195778 - 05/12/11 05:25 AM

Update 12/03/11

Bill73 and I went to the range on Saturday.
Temp was low 40's and snow on the ground, 90% humidity.

Shot from the bench at 50 yds. and 100.
Elbows on the bench forearm hand supported by a sandbag.
6 shots at 50yds and 4 at 100.
50 yd was no better or worse than before.
2 1/2" by 1 3/4" group.

First 2 had verticle spread but no Horizontal.
Next 4 had little verticle but made up the 2 1/2" group size.
2 R were R and 2 L were L
I will attach the target later.

I shot a left over target at 25 yds.
Offhand and relatively quick shots.
This would be exactly as ahot in the field.
See target below.

Bill73 feel free to chime in your thoughts.

Cheers Nitro

This is the 50 yd target, need to try different ammo maybe ?

This is the 100yd target, I felt good on the first 2 shots, next 2 I pulled bad, they had less verticle but a lot of horizontal, off frame of the pic. I know they were bad.

Edited by CptCurl (05/12/11 11:31 PM)

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nitro450exp
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
#195899 - 06/12/11 11:31 AM

Hello.

Bought a H&R Ultra Slug single shot for accuracy and load development.

Will load some and test them this weekend.

Will also test the lightfields for accuracy.

What to you think of this for a full bore slug ?

Solid copper, hollow base, 325 grain, 0.628" can swedge them down to 0.626", grooves are 0.625"
What do you think ?

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by CptCurl (12/12/11 11:39 PM)

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Tom_H
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Loc: Southeast, NY

Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
#196088 - 08/12/11 12:03 PM

Hey Nitro.

If those slugs regulate that well at 100 than great. Remember, most of the full bore slugs loose their stuff after that, so although they may group well at that range, by 125 the groups may be 2x+ if not way more.
I was shooting Brennekee 2 3/4 20ga that shot into 1/2" at 50 yds (single barrel) and about the same at 75. Groups were 8"+ at 100. Switched to the faster 3" and went into 2.5" at 100. The Lightfield is just a pinch ahead of the Brennekee in speed and BC. Those grouped into about 1.5" from the same barrel. Speed matters.
Another thing, we are shooting composite bullets here so at some point the accuracy will probably max out. It would be cool to make them shoot better and I would probably move over to a round ball and do the handload thing. They hold their power for as far as they can hit.
One more thing, I don't know what you used for a reamer but I used an extended forcing cone reamer on my chamber as that was what I had at the time. Don't know if it was that or the barrel that made it as accurate as it is.

Hope that this may be of some help.

Good shooting

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

Edited by Tom_H (09/12/11 09:22 AM)

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Tom_H
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: Tom_H]
#196089 - 08/12/11 12:11 PM

I just ran these on a ballistic calculator

Range - yds 0 50 100 150 200 250 300
Velocity - ft./sec. 1500 1274 1109 1002 928 869 820
Energy - ft.-lbs. 1998 1440 1093 892 765 671 596
Path - in. -1.5 1.9 -0.0 -9.0 -26.6 -54.3 -93.5
Drift - in. 0.0 0.7 2.9 6.4 11.0 16.4 22.8
Time of flight -sec. 0.0 0.1 0.2 0.4 0.5 0.7 0.9

I gave the slug a weight of 400gr, diameter of .62 and a bc of .12 which should be in the neighborhood.
The drift is with a 10mph wind and a 100yd zero

Sorry but I couldn't get the table to format.

Tom

Edited by Tom_H (08/12/11 12:12 PM)

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500grains
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Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: Tom_H]
#196099 - 08/12/11 01:45 PM

I am impressed with how well it is shooting.

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DarylS
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: 500grains]
#196100 - 08/12/11 01:57 PM

That copper slug should be OK and penetrate fairly well, but like Tom said, be of limited range due to it's poor weight VS diameter ratio. With a solid bullet, I'd like to see more frontal area for greater cavitation of soft tissue.

Drawing them down to groove diameter would be better than a thousandth over, if possible. If not, probably OK due to the deep hollow base.

With the rifled bores, filling the base cavity with lead would nicely heavy them up a bit & would probably make them more accurate due to stability. If they regulated well enough, they'd be good for way past 100yards.imho of course.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
#196234 - 10/12/11 02:56 AM

Hello,
The sizer I have is for cast lead to size down to 0.001" over.
I will try it on the copper, they are supposed to be 5/8" 0.625"
Already but my calipers said 0.628".
We will see.
Yes I may fill with lead to up th mass just a little worried if that will make them too hart to compress and engrave.
I will experiment with my cheap single shot beforehand.
Don't want to risk damaging my baby.
Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
#196239 - 10/12/11 05:05 AM

With a pure lead core, the compressability of the bullet by the lands will remain about the same. Do use pure lead - heaviest and with a surgically clean jacket and a minimal amount of solder flux will bond a bit.

I am concerned the bullet, if left hollow, will lose stability due to the heavy nose. Shooting will be the only way to find out.

Imperial or STOS are what I use for drawing bullets to smaller sizes.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
#199867 - 18/01/12 12:51 PM

UPDATE 01/16/12

Hello All,

Happy days are here.
My RMC Brass showed up today.
I ended up with 16 of each RB and Slug Cases.

The RB will be 0.625" and the case mouth is 0.624"
The slugs will be sized to 0.622" and case mouth 0.621"
The slugs are 1 0z and 720 Gr or 520 Gr.(720 made into HP)

The brass is headstamped No 20 RMC Ball and No 20 RMC.
Workmanship look very good.
Will bet the calipers out and do detailed inspection.
Went with the 3" length to get the bullet close to the forcing cone.
Hope the std 10 Deg lead works.

Need to get some 209's What is the hottest 209 ?

Cheers Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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tinker
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
#199875 - 18/01/12 01:25 PM

Nice.

Good success on your load development with those cases.
I wouldn't worry about which 209 was the hottest, they're pretty flashy as it is.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: tinker]
#199948 - 19/01/12 04:17 AM

As to primers, the Fed 239 is the hottest shotshell primer - seems I recall that from Ed's thread.

I've also heard the black powder 209's are the weakest 209 primer. I do not know if that is fact or not- just repeating what was said previously - somewhere.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
#199961 - 19/01/12 09:50 AM

I bought some CCI 209 Magnum primers.
I need to get case capacity in H2O Grains.
And do some test fitting of the projectiles.

I have some workups based on the Baloon formed Alcans but they are 181 grains H20.
Even though these cases are 3" the probably have same or less capacity.
The bases are super stout on these.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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nitro450exp
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
#205563 - 20/03/12 04:54 AM

Well, I got some time to persue my 20 Bore DR loading.

I loaded some 350 gr balls over Blue Dot with 20S1 wads and 1/8” nitro cards in Multi-hulls (8)

Also did some Hammerheads over Blue Dot (just 2)

Did some of the BPI DGS slugs over 800X (8)

I did some more of the 350 gr RB over Trailboss, in RMC Brass, added lube in the case neck. (8)

Did some RB on a wad column over Blue Dot, RMC brass lots of lube in the neck (2)

The idea is shoot 2 over the chrony, out of the H&R SB1, check for issues if OK

Shoot 3 Rights and 3 Lefts out of the DR for accuracy and regulation.

The afternoons labour.

The wad column combinations.

Will post targets after shooting.

Nitro .

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by CptCurl (20/03/12 10:47 AM)

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tinker
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
#205566 - 20/03/12 05:29 AM

Nice.
Interested to see the results.

If you can get the roundball running properly, it'll be great on pretty much everything here in NA

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
#205567 - 20/03/12 05:58 AM

Is the "LightField" slug a flat faced/nosed slug? ie; about full diameter for flat nosed? I'm wondering how it would do with round balls.

A .615" ball weighs 350gr. in pure lead - that is exactly 20 bore in size. The grooves can be taken up by the wads, with the cup under the ball holding it centred. of course, if using black powder, then a lubed cloth patch will soften fouling and not allow it to build up.

A normal 2 3/4" hull should allow that 350gr. ball to achieve at least 1,800fps - about the same as a heavier 130gr. 2F charge in a muzzleloading rifle of .62 cal. - nothing to sneeze at - and powerful enough for anything here, that's for sure. As to range, if you can get them regulating and accurate enough, they'll give you a good 200yard effective range on deer, elk and moose. My bro's new Hawken, .62 cal,shooting a .615" ball with 128gr.(happens to be what his hand made measure threw at the largest setting) is now making in the 4" to 5" 5 shot groups at 200yards off a rest.

I would not trust a factory slug that far, but do-so with the round balls - if you've achieved the accuracy. I surely do like that rifle!

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
#205573 - 20/03/12 07:19 AM

Daryl

I will post pics of a deconstructed lightfield soon.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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nitro450exp
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
#206357 - 02/04/12 12:44 PM

Daryl

Here is the lightfield hybrid EXP slug.

Nitro

Edited by CptCurl (04/04/12 09:03 PM)

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tinker
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
#206365 - 02/04/12 02:02 PM

It has drive keys!
Is the slug very hard?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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nitro450exp
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: tinker]
#206403 - 02/04/12 10:38 PM

The keys do not protruded from the sabot.
The must be a manufacturing aide.
The slug is softer than I care for, pure lead.
The ones recovered from dirt were trashed.
I liked the thin sabot, and almost full bore slug.
The slug has an HP nose, not too deep.

Nitro.

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
#206406 - 03/04/12 01:28 AM

My feelings concerning sabots and their slugs are if you're going to use them, use the largest bullet possible - closest to bore size, thinnest sabot.

The Lyman sabot slug that uses ordinary trap or field petal'd wads might be the best. My own testing of them got put on hold, but perhaps I can get around to them now that spring is here - we think. HA! - still a couple feet of snow in the bush.

Ed Hubel says the guys are reporting good accuracy with the Lymans slugs from rifled barrels and pretty good from smooth as well.

In 12 bore, they run 14 bore in size, ie: .690". They can also be case of straight WW metal. The ones I have are 506gr. instead of 525gr., their pure lead weight.

I think the 20 bore size runs around 385gr. Because the blocks are iron, they can be chucked up in a 4 jaw and easily altered in shape or the plunger could be altered with a simply file, to make the blocks cast a solid bullet or make a different shaped plunger, increasing their weight to whatever is desired.

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