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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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DarylS
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: Tallchief]
      #167897 - 17/09/10 08:41 AM

I suspect you mean $130.00 each- that's still a good price, but $13.00 would be even better.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: Tallchief]
      #168611 - 28/09/10 02:07 AM

Hello,

Well gunsmith and I, are both dealing with personal issues, so no updates.
Family comes first.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #168624 - 28/09/10 09:10 AM

Of course- we wait with bated (baited - depends on what you ate) breath.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tallchief
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #168692 - 29/09/10 11:40 AM

All,
Barrels shipped out to me today. It seems they have a relatively fast twist of 1:28 so will ahve to use lower bullet/slug grains. going to be interesting project. I picked up a very nice newer Zabala 10 bore as the doner.
TC

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DarylS
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: Tallchief]
      #168734 - 30/09/10 01:26 AM

1 in 28 should handle a fairly heavy bullet (and lighter ones too). You might want to check with Ed Huble about brass cases.
What will the chambers be reamed for, length-wise - 3"? The reason I ask, is that a 3" chamber will likely handle heavier bullets at a quite descent velocity. Of course, the longer the chamber, the lower the pressure at any given speed, using the appropriate powder, that is.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #168738 - 30/09/10 02:00 AM

Tallchief

10 ga donor gun
Isn't that going to be heavy for a 20 ga ?
I used a 16 for my donor because a 12 was going to be too big and heavy.
Most shotguns 20 ga - 10 ga opperate at similar pressure ~ 11 K PSI Max.
So you do not gain any ability to hot load with the 10 ga.

Someone correct me if my logic is flawed, Like I really needed to say this.
I am sure someone will be along shortly with all the facts.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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tinkerModerator
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #168751 - 30/09/10 06:32 AM

The 10bore action will allow him to go ".625 All The Way Live" with the 3-1/2" brass!!






Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Tallchief
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: tinker]
      #168764 - 30/09/10 09:12 AM

All,
I wasn't going to use the longer brass ($$$)unless I can get a really good buy. But I do believe chmabering or relieving the chamber is a good thing. Daryl, i wasn't sure about the twist being able to go heavy to light, but If you think that is possible, thats great as I do want to be as flexible as possible with loading.Does Mr.Huble have a web page?
TC

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DarylS
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: Tallchief]
      #168806 - 01/10/10 02:07 AM

TC - I don't think there will be any problem with lighter bullets, except they might be more difficult to find an accurate load with - hard to say. The twist is definitely geared toward heavier bullets, though.

Consider the smaller diameter of the 20 bore's rim in terms of square inches compared to a 10 bore's rim. That's where the difference in action strength comes. A 20 on the 10 bore action will handle more than the typical 11,500PSI as a regular diet. By the same token, if the 10 bore was re-barreled to something like a .22 Hornet with it's tiny rim, factory ammo could probably be fired quite safely - at 44,000PSI.(of course, the firing pin wouldn't work as it's too large and would blow primers, etc. - the point is the action would take it as the force AT the ctg. head is the deciding factor. Now, the straighter walled case results in the brass being able to adhere momentarily to the chamber walls at peak pressure which reduces bolt or action pressure, ie: bolt thrust, action thrust. The barrel must be up to the task of handling the pressure which is relieved from the action, which it usually does, in stride.
This is just one of the reasons Ed H. is getting such fantastic results with his 3 1/2" brass shotgun hulls. Minimal taper, stronger cases, stronger primers, etc.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #168811 - 01/10/10 05:15 AM

Hey guy's.

I thought the limitation on shotgun actions had to do with the strength of the underlugs, and at higher pressure the action trying to unhinge itself.
Wall or chamber thickness, with modern steels is not the limiting factor.
Without the locking shoulders of a bolt or lever action design, all the thrust is rearward on the standing breech, hinge pin and underlugs.
This is where the third bite helps ( Greener cross bolt, Rising Bite etc )
I would think a 3rd bite and side clips add more than just picking a 10 ga action.

Are the 10 ga lugs that much larger and stronger than a 16 or 12 ga ?

If my hypothesis is flawed please educate me.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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Tallchief
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Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #168867 - 02/10/10 10:23 AM

I thought about the 3.5 shells, but in order to build this as a mid level (recoil) one would most likly end up having to either put a lot of filler of some kind, or move up a bit in powder. I talked with my smith last night, and recommends going FFg and the 2.5 in shells and probably 700 grain bullet. All of this at this point is up for grabs as the gun has not been built. I does have the greener style cross bolt, and very heavy underlugs too. The other thing to think of is where to get the dies from for the 3.5 inch RMC cartridge....and they are more than 7 times the price per unit.

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DarylS
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #168870 - 02/10/10 12:29 PM

Quote:

Hey guy's.

I thought the limitation on shotgun actions had to do with the strength of the underlugs, and at higher pressure the action trying to unhinge itself.
Wall or chamber thickness, with modern steels is not the limiting factor.
Without the locking shoulders of a bolt or lever action design, all the thrust is rearward on the standing breech, hinge pin and underlugs.
This is where the third bite helps ( Greener cross bolt, Rising Bite etc )
I would think a 3rd bite and side clips add more than just picking a 10 ga action.

Are the 10 ga lugs that much larger and stronger than a 16 or 12 ga ?

If my hypothesis is flawed please educate me.

Nitro



Exactly - with modern limited taper rounds, there is very much reduced bolt or thrust against the standing block, therefore less of the pressure is trying to unhinge the action.
The 10 bore action is larger than the smaller cases to contain the larger cartridge, but also for added strength due to the larger case head. The pressure against a 10 bore's standing breech at 11,000PSI, would be the same as a smaller ctg.'s pressure at perhaps 15,000PSI would be against the same block in the same action. This is why when people can use shotgun actions which are chambered for 12 bore cases, but chamber the rifled barrel for a .450 #2 (smaller rin size) which produces 38,000PSI - the action doesn't spring open & the pressure is contained by the action. The difference is the area over which the pressure is spread.

Now, that .450 #2 might fit perfectly and the barrel would be plenty heavy enough if done on a .410 double shotgun, but the action wouldn't take the strain, whereas the larger action can, even though both shotgun rounds are loaded to the same pressure- of 11,500PSI max- or thereabouts.

I am not explaining this sitation well - sorry.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tallchief
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #168878 - 03/10/10 12:21 AM

Interesting Daryl, I think I have read a similar explanation andit seems to fit.Using a thick barrel (liner) as is the case with my gun plus the thick outside barrel makes for a heavy indeed chamber, and I am shooting duplex loads not anyway neer the 135 grain black load.

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DarylS
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: Tallchief]
      #168879 - 03/10/10 12:41 AM

Smokeless booter for the BP charge. I found in my .50 3 1/4", IMR3031 was the most accurate. I loaded 15gr. 3031, then the regular powder charge reduced 20gr.

In a shotshell, I found there was no need nor visible benefit to the smokeless booster, and used straight black powder.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tallchief
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #168884 - 03/10/10 01:22 AM

I tried 3031 10 grains and reduced the black to 70 and blue dot, and the 3031 worked the best and both really cleaned up the barrel and brass. I think I am going to have the gunsmith regulate the 600 at 100 grains of black and the 700 or so grain bullet. I am going to order the mold from Jim, Allison once the barrels are slugged.The only real decision i have to make soon is whether to use magtec brass (2.5) of RMC who will make 3 or 3.5 brass. If i go to the longer brass, will I have to increase the load much and recoil?

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apr1775
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: Tallchief]
      #168965 - 04/10/10 10:42 PM

On the issue of an action trying to unhinge, I think back to WW Greener's book where he claims very little is required to keep a double barrel gun from coming open. He invented the Greener crossbolt, but more as a added level of safety. In a double rifle, I would want that added level of safety. A not often mentioned aspect of bolting is the tremendous force on the front lug and wrist pin.

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DarylS
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: apr1775]
      #168974 - 05/10/10 02:11 AM

The longer cases will have to have a higher wad column - or more of a slower powder.
I would actually think that a 2 3/4" case would hold all I wanted to shoot. I've read that Magtec brass sits normal dies, whereas the RMC doesn't. There was an article on loading brass and plastic in either the DG Journal or Handloader magazine - I think the magazine rather than the journal - recently- ie: last couple months. The author used 12 bore only, IIRC, and obtained some pressy impressive ballistics from the 1.4" magtec brass. I have some in 16 bore, takes large pistol primers and works beautifully - annealed first.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tallchief
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #168994 - 05/10/10 10:25 AM

Daryl,
My .577 is a converted 10 bore and uses the magtec 28 gauge brass. They work really well and don't cost much at all. We annealed them befor using, and are holding up very well. The 577 is loaded fairly mild at intially 80 grains of FFg, so with the increase in volumn of the 20 gauge, I would think 100 grains would be sufficient and not too heavy on recoil. I will have custom molds made for probably 680 to 720 as I don't have the need for the standard 900 grainer.I'll look for some back article information on Handloader to see if I can find that article.
Thanks guys,
TC

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Tallchief
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: Tallchief]
      #169057 - 06/10/10 10:33 AM

I posted on the other questions as well, and want to express, that the newer gun, especially the big 10 bore actions are pretty much way beyond what the early 1900s action were in a metalurgical
sence. The difference that I have seen is with repsct to fit and finish. i recently fired a converted 12 gauge in 450#2 with a very stout load, and it performs very well indeed, and was shot a great deal befor giving it to its customer.So, In my very humble opinion, a good conditioned well made 10 bore is more than enough for the big .600 provided it is loaded up short of the full whoop. It may even been ok for that, but we no longer have mastodons down where I live, but do have some of there bones.....
Cheers guys Have fun, shoot what you can afford....safetly

Edited by Tallchief (06/10/10 11:29 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: Tallchief]
      #169077 - 06/10/10 08:52 PM

TC - I suspect it will take more than 100gr. of 2f or 1F and a 700gr. (1.6oz) bullet to beat 12,000PSI in that beast, and in the smaller rim size, 12,000psi should be a pussy-cat load. If you stay with black powder and groove diameter lead slugs in 2 1/2" cases, I dare say you could not strain the gun, no matter how much lead you send downrange heavy the load.

My 13 bore Husky (16 bore left barrel) shoots round balls at close range quite well - from it's straight rifling. Yes - I do wish it was twisted, but it isn't, so range for moose is restricted. It might be going moose/grouse hunting this Saturday. Lots of birds this year - hot dry summer (for here).

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tallchief
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #169080 - 06/10/10 10:44 PM

Daryl,
I think you are right, but not too sure at what level would relate to a mid-range for the 600. I might have him (gunsmith) load higher, and with some 4759 or 3031 as well. He has only built the 450s and 577s and not a 600, so his start from loads for regulating it is going to be new for him. I also want to keep recoil low enough for my wife to shoot upon occasion as sshe does like my 577.

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DarylS
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: Tallchief]
      #169084 - 07/10/10 03:10 AM

She does? - Hmmmm - smokeless powder loads producing identical speeds with the same projectiles kick about 1/2 of BP loads - that is how they feel. The actual is probably about 1/3rd less. My 12 bore double's regulation was identical for heavy BP or equivalent smokeless loads, even though the black powder loads had so much more recoil. I might have been just lucky. Seems to me the heavier recoling load should have diverged.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #169086 - 07/10/10 05:40 AM

Guys - Lyman's 5th Shotshell Handloading manual will give some ideas of where to start, perhaps, but maybe not so much with the really heavy bullets. I have the 3rd, and found it to be measureably helpful in my loads, even with the 16 bore, which they only load with buckshot.(in the back slug and buckshot loading section) The 12 and 20 bore both have buck and slug/round ball data which is useful.

Much depends on what level of power you are looking for. consider the 12 bore Paradox guns were normally loaded with around 750gr. bullets running 1,000fps to 1,200fps. That is a 1.7oz. slug sifting along at barely the speed of sound.

Note also, the big, short slugs and round balls are not effected by the drop down through the speed of sound like small diameter long pointy bullets are. For proof of this, I look no further than my .69 cal. rifle and it's round balls. If it can start a ball at 1,550fps, and still deliver 1.2" 5 shot groups at 100 meters and a 6 shot 1 1/4" X 3 1/2" group at 200yards with me and my 60 year old eyesight running the Express Sights, then the speed of sound is not impressing the ball whatsoever. Starting at 1,550fps, and with a BC of .090, the ball drops below the speed of sound around 100yards (2,000ft. ASL) ie: 1,077fps, then is only trucking at 877fps at 200.

Also- a PM to Ed Huble might give you a place to start with slower smokeless loads in the 20 bore with short cases. He helped me get started with slow powders for my 12 bore Mossberg rifled gun.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tallchief
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #169096 - 07/10/10 10:07 AM

Guys,
I did hear from
Ed, and he recommended 60gr 4759/4227 or little more RE17 using a 500 grain bullet and the magtec 20ga brass. This seems a fare load, so will pass this onto my smith. I'll have to have molds made for both the 700 and 500 grains as I have not been able to find such off of the shelf.

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DarylS
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Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: Tallchief]
      #169098 - 07/10/10 11:09 AM

What does NEI produce for 20 bore bullet weights?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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