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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #162957 - 29/06/10 02:27 AM

Daryl,

So basically due to the Americans I am all screwed up
Damn non standard free thinking Americans

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26504
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #163028 - 30/06/10 01:08 AM

No fear - all will be well. One merely needs to immerse onself in ballistics and nomenclature, chant the powder burn rate chart twice and all will be well. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #163031 - 30/06/10 02:59 AM

HA HA HA !

Pretty funny.

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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Tom_H
.333 member


Reged: 13/04/05
Posts: 334
Loc: Southeast, NY
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #163329 - 04/07/10 01:40 PM

Nitro 450, great project. This is going to be wordy.

I have stuck with the 20ga for deer exclusively and had great luck. I also had a similar project that is in phase two (better platform) and will hopefully be finished by fall as well.
A couple of discoveries so you don't have to reinvent the...

Slower twist is definately better with a full bore slug. I had Bauska (when they were in business) cut a barrel with a 1-70". .615 bore, .625 groove. It shoots 3" Brenekes into 2" at 100yds. It did better with Lightfields.

Fast twist barrels lead. Badly. I modified some molds, tried factory and never got full bore slugs to shoot well in a fast twist barrel. If you follow the chart, your barrel twist in 20ga is optimum with a 900gr bullet. Those were my experiences.

For fast twist barrels
I have had great luck with the winchester platinum tip slugs in a lightweight H&R with the quick twist. The load replicates a .454 Casull (+100fps) and the bullet has excellent expansion. Makes it a true 150yd deer rifle as that is as far as I have shot it.

Lastly keep things supersonic. I mentioned the 3" mag above. The same slug in 2 3/4 would group into 1" at 50yds, went subsonic at 75, and grouped into 8" at 100. I upped the speed with the mag and the problems stopped.
Never tried round balls (but will in the future.)A number of years back I shot a doe with my 58 flint at 140yds. Ball went through both sides, deer went to freezer. I can only imagine the .62 being that much better.

Best of luck with your project/

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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jaz
.300 member


Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
Loc: Northeast US
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: Tom_H]
      #163350 - 04/07/10 08:38 PM

I may have missed it, but are you sleeving the barrels, lining them, or making a new set? I did this project a few years back, lined a 12 bore Cogswell with Hastings 20 bore barrels. Tack driver at 75 yrds. I used factory Hornady ammo. Now the RBL Proffessional is offering basically the same type gun. I'll bet your costs are at least that when your done. You have to love projects for projects sake....
JZ

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: jaz]
      #163386 - 05/07/10 08:13 AM

Jaz

New barrel blanks from ER Shaw, total barrel replacement in the mono block.
RBL is allot more spendy.
And rather ugly with the regulation clamp.
This is going to be a fair bit thriftier than the RBL.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #164165 - 15/07/10 03:11 AM

Update 7/14

Well I have purchased and taken appart the following 3 brand of Sabot slugs.
I am making a matrix of the critical information eg. (Mass, diameter of sabot, dia. of slug, length etc )
I am going to shoot a few out of a smooth bore and get actual velocity.
I have had someone pull apart another candidate and based on his initial data it looks promising.
Once I get the partial box from him I can add it to the mix.

I will then have a few rounds of the finalists sent to the gunsmith for regulation checking.
If they pan out I will purchase a case, or 2, for final regulation and hunting.

They are :

Winchester BRI.



Lightfield Hybrid EXP.



Remington Buckhammer.



Hastings Sabot ( I know they are obsolete, I have a line on 300 rds (3 cases))



Details will follow.

Thanks
Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by CptCurl (27/07/10 09:01 PM)

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #164728 - 22/07/10 03:49 AM

Update 7/21

Gunsmith has contacted me and informed me I am his next project, Ya Hoo !
He stated he only works on single projects start to finish, not multiples.
This is good news.
He also stated that I will be hunting with this DR for Nov 15, 2010 open day deer season.

I expect to be getting some more updates and pictures as soon as the work starts.
I hope it will be in the next few days.

Regards
Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26504
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #164741 - 22/07/10 03:21 PM

Good luck with it - champing at the bit to hear how it shoots.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #165074 - 28/07/10 02:31 AM

Update 7/27

Daryl S,
So am I, So am I.

All,

I have contacted the smith and he in in process of sourcing someone to contour the barrels.
Because of the compound contour from chamber to muzzle he is outsourcing this, his lathe does not have a tracer on it.
I will hopefully be getting good news, and a more comprehensive shedule from him, once he has a handle on this aspect of the build.

I will keep you all posted.

Thanks
Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #166137 - 12/08/10 10:53 PM

Update 8/12

Still dealing with the barrel contouring issue.
Sounds like the smith has bitten the bullet and purchased a tracer attachment for his lathe.
He was not wanting to do this, as he was planning to go CNC instead.
I am hoping for news soon.
He has commited to having me hunting with it on opening day, Nov. 15th 2010.
I will keep you posted.

Cheers Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #166336 - 17/08/10 06:41 AM

Update 8/16

The smith has ordered a tracer to profile the barrels.It should arrive Wed.
He has roughed in the barrels to the diameter they need to be at the breech and shortened them to 24 1/2 "
He has started laying out the action on the stock blank.

He has to go out of town for a week to work on his project.

I hope to have some photo's of the progress soon.

Cheers
Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26504
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #166382 - 18/08/10 12:11 AM

I re-read the posts and am a bit concerned in regards the twists and shallow rifling. You may be stuck with slugs - oh well. I know you'll make the most of it. If shooting bare slugs that run groove or slightly larger, I'd apply some bullet lube to their sides. Nothing leads worse than a bare shotgun slug in a dry and clean or foued bore.

I'd even try MS Moly on the slugs - I use it for my gopher gun's bullets, a .17AH and they work as well as factory moly coated bullets.

Otherwise, I'd use something like SPG or Lyman's BP Gold for smokeless or Black, or perhaps one of the 50/50 alox/beeswax normal smokeless lubes. I really like the Lyman's BP Gold. It even works well for full power loads in my .44 Wheelgun and .50 Alaskan RBlock - no leading, even up to 2,000fps in the rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #166390 - 18/08/10 01:00 AM

Daryl

I have some of the Turbo1889 slugs from here:
http://www.reloadersauction.com/shop.php?user_id=100176&parent_id=355
It is a 0.625 1 oz slug coated in LEE Alox.
I plan on running them through a custom sizer die to get them bore sized and relube.
If they do not shoot without leading bad, I will have to stick to sabots.

We will just have to experiment once I get the gun in my hands.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #166396 - 18/08/10 02:49 AM

Nitro-



Quote:


...Turbo1889 slugs...
It is a 0.625 1 oz slug coated in LEE Alox
(image from link)







I looked at the link you have there, only saw 12bore slugs.
Can I buy a couple of those slugs from you to inspect?
My 20bore rifle has a .625 groove diameter, these might be worth it to test.

I'll ping your PM account.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Edited by CptCurl (19/08/10 09:13 PM)

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: tinker]
      #166397 - 18/08/10 03:29 AM

Tinker

Emailed you.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26504
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #166504 - 20/08/10 03:09 AM

Here's a suggestion from Ronaldo Neep of Australia for full sized round balls.
: coat the balls with alox (Lee Liquid would work perfectly I suppose)
: a plastic wad, petals cut off, + wads (he used 2) to take up space
: insert the ball and roll crimp.

Sounds good to me. Now, the same system would work with a folded crimp as I apply.

The author also coated the inside of the case with alox both before and after loading the wads and ball. I am assuming this is the crimping area only as it would be impossible to lube the inside of the case after the shell is loaded. I fail to see any benefit to this, except the blast and wads would push more lube into the bore - it may be needed. I do know it is common to coat bullets twice when using Lee Liquid Alox.

The loads where developed for 12 bore 2 3/4" for round ball and for smokeless power, ie: Blue Dot and the system would work equally well in 20 bore.

He also experimented with a full sized 600gr. (12 bore) slug sitting on a plastic wad, petals cut off and attained 2" at 50 yards - I strongly suspect he is using a rifled tube - an H&R Tracker 11 to be specific.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #166543 - 20/08/10 10:34 PM

Hello

So far I have experimented with Fed S Series wads with the petals cut off.
The brown and pink ones ( S0 and S4 ? )
I put the wad over the powder and add 2 1/8" Nitro cards than slug and roll crimp.
I have had pretty good results.
I played with the RB's in the brass shells.
That load was powder 1/8" NC, 1/2" FC,NC,FC,NC RB Crimp on the median of the ball.
That load was slow, so I need to up the powder or something.

Balls and slugs all have Alox on them.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26504
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #166553 - 20/08/10 11:56 PM

When using smokeless, a plastic gas check should increase velocity by a good margin. With black powder loads, one should not use plastic as it will melt onto the bore and fill the grooves - in places.

Brass cases will of course demand only card and fibre as a 19 or 18 gauge wad will be needed to fill the case due to the thin walls. Trackofthewolf (Circle Fly Wads) has all sizes of wads.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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nitro450exp
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Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #167374 - 08/09/10 12:27 AM

Update 9/7

Well smith has started profiling the barrels, he got 80% done and the tracer attachment broke.
Spare parts are being overnighted.
Hope to have some pictures soon.

I will be sending some ammo for the regulation this week.
I will be sending 10 rounds each of:
Remmington 3" Buckhammers
Hastings 3" Sabot Slugs
Lightfield 3" Hybrid EXP sabot slugs.

We will have to see how she likes them.

Cheers
Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26504
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #167387 - 08/09/10 06:42 AM

With a descent assortment of different moulds in that size, you should be able to come up with some handloads that beat the factory stuff.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tallchief
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Reged: 11/12/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: DarylS]
      #167819 - 15/09/10 11:39 PM

Nice post guys, Nitro, who made your rifled 20 gauge barrels? I have been contemplating this idea for a while as well.
Thanks, TC

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nitro450exp
.333 member


Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: Tallchief]
      #167820 - 16/09/10 12:02 AM

Tallchief

They are E R Shaw barrels.
They were reportedly made for a barrel company ( Hasting's I suspect )
And these were purchased by someone, but delivery took several month and then that person changed there mind, I bought them from that person so no wait.
I did contact E R Shaw and they quoted me $ 180 per blank and 9 month delivery time.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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Tallchief
.300 member


Reged: 11/12/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: nitro450exp]
      #167822 - 16/09/10 01:06 AM

Thank you, i'll contact them if they have a web site

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Tallchief
.300 member


Reged: 11/12/09
Posts: 108
Loc: Colorado,USA
Re: 20 ga DR build progress. [Re: Tallchief]
      #167824 - 16/09/10 02:06 AM

I contacted them this morning and ordered two 20 gauge barrels blanks $13) ea. sometime next year for shipping.
Thanks

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