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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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Omnivorous_Bob
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Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 285
Loc: Montana
Another 4-bore double
      #153929 - 17/02/10 05:00 AM

A beautiful Thomas Horsley 4-bore double. I haven't seen this many 4's for sale in years! Now I just need to work on my lottery skills....

I'd love to know more details.

4-bore



Edited by Omnivorous_Bob (17/02/10 05:16 AM)


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Omnivorous_Bob
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Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 285
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #153930 - 17/02/10 05:14 AM

To follow up, I have a few questions some of our more knowledgable members may be able to answer...

On the photo of the chambers, ahead of the rim cut there appears to be a step about 1/2" in. Any particular reason? Perhaps pit removal? Why just that small bit then? The rest of the gun seems in great condition, so that doesn't make sense.

The watertable is dished, rather than flat. I've got an 8 gauge shotgun that is similar. What was the reasoning or advantage to this? It lets you make the chamber end of the barrels thicker and the bar weaker, but is there any more to it? Obviously on much higher pressure rifle rounds they didn't feel the need to trade action flex for barrel strength. Was this just an early technique that was later found to be unnecessary?

As always, thanks in advance for the education.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


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450_366
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #153932 - 17/02/10 05:22 AM

Perhaps its a papercase 4-bore, thats why there are steps in the chamber.

A bit to light on colorcase hardening, or is it the photo?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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gatsby
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #153935 - 17/02/10 05:49 AM

Rob,
I know we have had acouple of head scratching conversations concerning the dished actions. Holland seemed to use it on most all their 10's including their last Nitro paradox 10's made in the 1920's but only rarely on their other bore guns. I don't know about the chamber step either. Photo's are photo's but is that bottom lug strange also?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: gatsby]
      #153938 - 17/02/10 06:05 AM

450-366, that makes perfect sense! Paper case bore guns I've seen and the 2 I've got don't have a step, but I've never seen an original shell either! Maybe the head was a significant amount larger than the body in 1876?

Gatsby, I wondered about the lug too. Also, the front sight looks like a replacement as it dosen't fit too well into it's dovetail.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


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rigbymauser
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #154079 - 18/02/10 04:31 AM

Fantastic beautiful Doublerifle. As good as they`ll ever get in vintage age

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gatsby
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: rigbymauser]
      #154082 - 18/02/10 05:20 AM

RM
Not being critical just asking questions. These old warrior behemoths are too few to disregard over a wart or two.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: gatsby]
      #154735 - 25/02/10 04:05 AM

I like'um BIG. I might try to build one of these in a ML version. it's all about bore size!

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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rigbymauser
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: gatsby]
      #154741 - 25/02/10 05:33 AM

Quote:

RM
Not being critical just asking questions. These old warrior behemoths are too few to disregard over a wart or two.



I agree Sir!!.

They are rare, and really, any surviving speciem, in just "fair" condition represent something uniqe. I admire them all, of these borerifles, but ofcouse the 4bore is "kong" of them all.


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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: rigbymauser]
      #154756 - 25/02/10 08:08 AM

I like the old battle scars as well. If only they could speak! With rifles like this I'd much rather look at a worn but servicable and maintained gun and know that it has seen the hunting fields and been proven in action than an unfired example.

When I see one my mind always wonders to thoughts of whose hands carried it for so long to wear the fnish and engraving like that? What were they after? Was that stock gouge caused by being dropped in a hurry? Who used it enought that that piece needed to be replaced?

What fun!

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


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BlainSmipy
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #154757 - 25/02/10 09:39 AM

Imagen what these old guns were designed for and the game to be hunted. Truely Allen quartermain stuff, dropping buff and tuskers when the danger was real and the natives still ate people. Makes youwant to buy a pith helmet.

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.


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Huvius
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #154759 - 25/02/10 01:02 PM

Quote:

Makes youwant to buy a pith helmet.




WHAT?! Do don't own one already?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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calpappas
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: Huvius]
      #155388 - 03/03/10 03:52 PM

Gents:
Nothing, absolutely nothing, beats shooting a big, vintage, English double. All rifles have something but these rifles have it all--history, power, the finest craftsmanship possible, and (in the biggest calibers) a great rarity. No matter how money one has, there are only so many vintage .577s, .600s, and 4-bores around. And, I do have a pith helmet.
Cal

--------------------
_______________________________________________________________________

Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska
Cal's Log
CalPappas.com

_______________________________________________________________________


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: calpappas]
      #155393 - 03/03/10 04:26 PM

Damn that thing is as wide as my '74 Ramcharger.

Look at the rim recesses.
The right is deeper than the left, and both of the chambers appear to have silver at the step between the rim recess and the big bore end of the chambers.

Neat rifle.

I too have a pith helmet, but I have no 4-bore.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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bigdog
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: tinker]
      #155680 - 07/03/10 10:38 AM

It is a very good looking rifle and in such fine shape. Makes me drool!!

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad


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gatsby
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: bigdog]
      #155682 - 07/03/10 10:57 AM

That's why you need a pith helmet (to catch the drool).

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: gatsby]
      #156625 - 16/03/10 06:02 AM

It's a beautiful rifle by a great maker. I hate to be critical, but I would prefer it to not have been refinished. An 1876 rifle should not be molested like that.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: CptCurl]
      #156638 - 16/03/10 09:47 AM

Let's post the photos for this thread.































24" SxS damascus barrels with 1 standing and 3 folding platinum-lined express sights, 14 1/2"pull to red Silvers pad. Figured walnut stock: pistol grip with large horn cap, splinter forend with crosspin fastener and steel tip inlay; point-pattern checkering. Sidelocks with double triggers, stalking safeties, borderline engraving and Jones underlever. Weight 19lbs, 1oz. Built 1876. London black powder proofed. Although solid in the first place, restored to new condition by Pete Mazur and with color casehardening by Doug Turnbull. Sound stock, tight action, crisp sears, clean breech face and excellent mirror-bright bores. $69,995.



Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: CptCurl]
      #156642 - 16/03/10 10:40 AM

Nice job re-browning the barrels, bit dark but nicely done. It is easy to go too far with browning Damascus barrels.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Bramble
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #156664 - 16/03/10 02:19 PM

Quote:


The watertable is dished, rather than flat. I've got an 8 gauge shotgun that is similar. What was the reasoning or advantage to this? It lets you make the chamber end of the barrels thicker and the bar weaker, but is there any more to it? Obviously on much higher pressure rifle rounds they didn't feel the need to trade action flex for barrel strength. Was this just an early technique that was later found to be unnecessary?

As always, thanks in advance for the education.

Bob




The water table is dished for the following reason.

One must maintain a certain chamber wall thickness for hoop stress. One must maintain a certain amount of strength at the root of the action.(Junction of the standing breach and the watertable)
In order to satisfy both of these criteria it is often necessary to make the action fairly deep in the bar. This coupled with the large diameter barrels makes the whole gun somewhat deeper from rib to underside than is cosmetically pleasant.

By dishing the action one leaves strength at the root ( rather like the ribs on an RSJ) to resist flexing and lowers the profile of the gun. As crack propagation is, except in very rare cases, from the furthest extremity inward this design achieves both things.
It does however make the gun harder to joint in the first place.

Regards


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450_366
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Re: Another 4-bore double [Re: Bramble]
      #156679 - 16/03/10 06:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:


The watertable is dished, rather than flat. I've got an 8 gauge shotgun that is similar. What was the reasoning or advantage to this? It lets you make the chamber end of the barrels thicker and the bar weaker, but is there any more to it? Obviously on much higher pressure rifle rounds they didn't feel the need to trade action flex for barrel strength. Was this just an early technique that was later found to be unnecessary?

As always, thanks in advance for the education.

Bob




The water table is dished for the following reason.

One must maintain a certain chamber wall thickness for hoop stress. One must maintain a certain amount of strength at the root of the action.(Junction of the standing breach and the watertable)
In order to satisfy both of these criteria it is often necessary to make the action fairly deep in the bar. This coupled with the large diameter barrels makes the whole gun somewhat deeper from rib to underside than is cosmetically pleasant.

By dishing the action one leaves strength at the root ( rather like the ribs on an RSJ) to resist flexing and lowers the profile of the gun. As crack propagation is, except in very rare cases, from the furthest extremity inward this design achieves both things.
It does however make the gun harder to joint in the first place.

Regards




Most of the old Lefaucheux has this future, they have no lump under the barrels only between i think, and all drillings naturally.

Newer gave it a tought before, but now that you point it out, it makes a really slim lowprofile action.

And there goes my mind into another spin of a new gun.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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