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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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bouldersmith
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Loc: Boulder Colorado
16 bore rifle questions?
      #145378 - 08/11/09 11:40 AM

well I stumbled into one today at quite an attractive price...I had to buy it. Jones under lever, single barrel, single set trigger, swamped barrel, weighs 6 & 3/4 lbs. No makers name, but very nicely made. I have yet to do a chamber cast but at this point am assuming it is 2 & 1/2" chamber. The bore measures .674" and is pretty good with the twist around 1 in 54". I think it will shoot either ball or a light conical. Any thoughts as to powder charge? I am think around 3 drams to start. Thanks for your input, pictures as soon as I can find my USB cord.
Steve

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DarylS
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #145420 - 09/11/09 02:09 AM

Hi Steve- I'd start with 3 drams myself. If European, probably has 2 5/8" chambers.

Since early rifled guns were called in calibers by the bore size rather than the groove diameter, it would probably be called a 15 bore as 15 is .677".

I'd not stress the stock with slugs, and think the 54" twist will shoot RB's just fine, especially with lighter charges. Regulation will, of course tell the tail on projectiles.

The chambers might be a perfect fit for a 16 bore brass case, available from Buffalo Arms for around $21.00 for 25. Cheap! They are 2.4" in length and will actually hold just about 5 drams and a round ball with no wads. Wads are used to take up the extra space for lighter charges, of course.

I shoot 3 drams in my 15 bore straight rifled, right hand barrel on my Husky 16 with a 14 1/2 bore ball. This ball (.684") engraves about .003" per side in the .703" groove diameter and shoots quite well but better accuracy is obtained using a cloth patched 16 bore ball loaded above the 3 dram load and wads. Not only is it more accurate than a bare ball, but the lubed (neetsfoot oil) patch keeps fouling soft and shoots quite clean, with no fouling buildup shot to shot.

For your gun, I suggest a 16 bore ball, .662", Lyman mould with about a 10oz denim (.021") patch and 3 drams, probably with a, 1/8" and 1/2" wad. Wads are available from trackofthewolf.com. 14 bore wads fit perfectly in the 16 bore brass cases and help prevent blowby. They also have 15 bore wads, etc. To load, pour charge in the case and appropriate wads, then lay the patch over the case mouth and push the ball down into the case with a short starter or dowel. Then, simply crimp in a 16 bore crimp starter, or seal with a liquid sealer, like water-glass.

I use the crimp starter station in the 16 bore press to 'roll' crimp annealed case necks. The brass 16 bore cases fit chambers that also fit 16 bore plastic, but since they're thin, they take larger wads and allow larger projectiles than do the plastics or paper cases.

Of course, this is all based on the measurement you gave as the bore size. If this was the groove diameter instead, then it is a 16 bore, not a 15 and will require 17 bore balls, etc. A chamber cast and slugging the bore are necessary to get proper sizing.

Good luck.



Edited by CptCurl (25/11/11 11:17 PM)

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bouldersmith
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: DarylS]
      #145460 - 09/11/09 07:09 AM

Those were bore dimensions and the chamber is 2&1/2". I still need to do a chamber cast, but here are a couple of pictures so far.
Steve





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Edited by CptCurl (25/11/11 11:18 PM)

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bouldersmith
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #145466 - 09/11/09 09:44 AM

Thank you Daryl. Yes .673/4 is the bore, the grove after slugging it is .695. It has a few uneven spots and may benefit from a very light lapping just to knock down the high spots. Now to order some brass and wads. You mention regulating the load to the sights.....I failed to say that the front one has been sheared off and that the rear arrangement is one standing and 2 folding. I will be ordering a German silver blank from Track of the wolf to replace it. Once I find a comfortable load I will file the front sight to the needed height. It is missing its fly and needs a few other minor details, but overall I like it a lot.
Steve

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bouldersmith
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #148473 - 21/12/09 08:30 AM

I made the first trip out to the range with the old gal today. I have it shooting on the paper but a lot of work to do still. The cases first and foremost. I think this gun must have been made for a thicker walled case. About half of the magtech brass split and the loaded cartridges seems a sloppy fit in the chamber and on the extractor. This gun is a blast to shoot though and I am excited about its possibilities. Daryl, do you know of a source for thicker brass walled cases? I may need rto get some turned, but would rather not.
Steve

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tinkerModerator
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #148477 - 21/12/09 10:08 AM

Steve-


I've kept my nose out of this one due to plain/simple ENVY!

*erhem - not that I've gotten that out of the way...*


Haven't you cast the chamber on this thing yet?
Do that right away - and post your findings here in the thread.
I've been curious about that.

Have you considered the possibility that this was built as a 14-bore roundball rifle for the paper case?
Might just be what you've got there.

I've gone through three different 16-bore double rifles, casting chambers to machining cartridge cases and moulds to developing loading tools and regulation loads.
I've had a great time doing so, and as you're qualified to guess, they're all different.


I want to see chamber casts complete with throat and with the first inch or two of rifling.
Post an image of your bore slug and the muzzle too if you could please.


In the meantime, convince yourself that when the time comes for you to sell this rifle you contact ME first so that I can prepare myself for the purchase...



By the way, once you have a chamber cast taken of this rifle (and have measured/photographed/posted to this thread...) you can send it to Rocky Mountain Cartridge where they'll make you a nice box of cartridge cases for it.
I think you should just make your own on that lathe of yours -- you'll be shooting it much sooner than otherwise!



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: tinker]
      #148503 - 21/12/09 02:44 PM


By all means get that chamber casting underway so you know exactly what you have. Making brss or having it made might be your only option.

Calibre wise, .673/4" X .695" dimensions says it's a weak 16 bore or a very tight 14. .677" measures 15 bore, while .693" is 14. .662" is 16, so you see you're in the middle between 16 and 13. 15 bore was a popular muzzleloading bore size in shotguns, especially with Manton, although more normal was 14 with other makers it seems, way back when making the change to ctg. guns.

If indeed the chamber is oversize and it sounds as if it is, you will have to do one of two things, get or make the proper size, or anneal the 16 bore cases you have and fireform them to fit. New, 16 ore brass will admit a ball much larger than your groove dia. as in about .703", so perhaps Tinker is on to something - ie: heavier paper ctgs. or perhaps a 14 bore paper case, the thicker walls handling the smaller ball.

Note the picture of my brass above- the centre row with the .030" denim patched balls actually shoot better in my 13 bore barrel than larger balls (top row) that engrave in the rifling.

BTW - that is a lovely rifle - absolutely marvelous - I well understand Tinker's desire for it - WOW - or OW! - I don't own it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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rigbymauser
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: DarylS]
      #148516 - 21/12/09 09:26 PM

Beautiful rifle Boulder .

Interesting caliber in a interesting rifle.



Cheers JR

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bouldersmith
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #148547 - 22/12/09 03:37 AM

I do believe you have nailed it. The chamber does indeed appear to be 14 ga. The rear measures .780" and front .765" . It also appears to me that the barrel was originally on a Muzzleloader, not only is the bottom of the muzzle shaped to accommodate a ramrod, but the breech has a small piece of steel silver soldered in to cover was I think was the flash pan. The majority of the barrel is twist while the lower portion on both side near the breech is plain steel. Now where to find 14 ga cases? Thank you both for your input.
Steve



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Edited by CptCurl (25/11/11 11:20 PM)

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tinkerModerator
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #148554 - 22/12/09 05:20 AM

Steve-


What really sucks here is that at this point I don't want that rifle any LESS than I did yesterday!


The conversion from muzzle-loader wouldn't surprise me one bit.
I'm not sure where anyone stocks 14-bore cases, but I think you can find some here in the states -- and you don't need paper.
I've run some pretty massive charges of black powder in plastic cases with no trouble -- but you can only do it once per case.

Have Rocky Mountain Cartridge knock you a box of brass cases out for that thing - or just whittle a couple out on the lathe...


Did you note what the rate of twist is for this rifle anywhere..?







Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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bouldersmith
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: tinker]
      #148556 - 22/12/09 05:36 AM

rate of twist is 1 in 54".....what size projectile do you recommend? I talked to RMC today.....a 2 month wait.....I am not very patient at the moment and what to get her up and running, I am a little low on spare time at the moment(a '37 Chevy truck project too among others) but I may have to lathe turn a few just to get a reel feel for she really shoots.
Steve

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tinkerModerator
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #148557 - 22/12/09 05:37 AM

OK, looked back up in the thread.
Twist rate is 1/54"
You note that the bore is .673/4", and the grove is .695", the front of the chamber before the 'forcing cone' or throat is .765"

The difference between the mouth of that chamber (Can you include please the distance from breech face to the line where you measured the .695" diameter?) and your groove diameter looks like .070"
Half that is .035"
Paper case walls (from my Cheddite 16-bore paper cases) are about .025" thick - and I've seen plastic cases that measured about the same as my paper cases.

Looks like a paper-case 14-bore for sure.

If you're going to be running those paradox-style conicals, lube the hell out of them.
Judging from the looks of that rifling and the conveniently modern-looking "forcing cone" (I'd bet you a carne asada burrito and a large horchata, that chamber has been re-cut some time in the last 50 years), Daryl's suggestion of running patched roundball would likely work out wonderfully in this rifle.
I'd try that right away!





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tinkerModerator
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: tinker]
      #148558 - 22/12/09 05:42 AM

On roundball diameter, if I were you I'd start with what I had!
Do you have any roundball moulds in the neighborhood of your bore to groove diameters?

If not, I'd pull up the Track of The Wolf website (or just give them a call...) and see what they have - then choose something that looks right with a good thick (.020++") denim patch. That's been working out very well for Daryl (page through his list of postings via his profile here) and I'd just follow his steps for a 'quick and dirty' path to bliss!




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tinkerModerator
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: tinker]
      #148559 - 22/12/09 05:45 AM

By the way --
Let me know how you're doing on finding roundball.
At this time almost all of my gear is sorted/packed/stored in prep for our move out of California.
I *might* be able to dig up something that would work out for you if you fail in the search via the 'usual suspects' search.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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bouldersmith
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: tinker]
      #148560 - 22/12/09 06:01 AM

2.565" from the breech face to .765" area that enters the forcing cone and almost exactly 3" from the breech face until the full rifling diameter of .695". I have a local source for .678" and .662" round balls. I shot it yesterday with the .662" balls and a .020" patch. It sounds like a good place to start with the proper case. I thought I read that your had good success in one of your guns with round balls a couple thousandths of inch over the groove depth. All fun stuff.
Steve

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bouldersmith
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #148561 - 22/12/09 06:01 AM

oh....the paradox bullets are just for slugging the bore.

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tinkerModerator
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #148564 - 22/12/09 06:18 AM

Steve-


My sense is that the meaningful features of the slightly oversize ball are mechanical stability and gas seal.
Both of those features can be accomplished with properly lubed tight/thick patches.

Once things settle down for me (looks like that'll be once we've moved out of the state) I'll get the WR double rifle back out and run some tightly patched roundball.
The rifling profile in those barrels might end up working out very well with that kind of combination.


On 14-bore hulls, I saw a couple of things on Gunbroker.
(be patient with that site, getting spotty service from them this morning...)

Single Remington Brass 14ga Hull

WINCHESTER WESTERN 14ga shotgun ammo

Might want to contact the remington guy and plead your case - for a lower price.
The Winchester guy seems to be going for top collector market for his box of shells - see what you can do there too...

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: tinker]
      #148635 - 23/12/09 04:38 AM

With .011" rifling, I'd be thinking round balls only. I'm sure they'll shoot well with whatever powder charge you decide upon. I'd start at 3 drams and go up from there, 1/4 dram to 3/8's at a time until you get the accuracy and regulation you want. 4 drams (110gr.approx) is not a heavy load for a 14 or 16 bore rifle, but with a hardened ball, should make a smasher for any game in NA. I personally like 1,500fps to 1,550fps for the flatter trajectory - giving a point blank range of 120yards. It may take 4 3/4 to 5 drams to get that. Recoil may be the deciding factor. Too, you most certainly do not want to break the stock.


I have used once (or more) fired plastic 12 bore cases for 2 or three shots with full 7 dram loads, so feel any plastic 14 bore cases should be useable as well.

I wouldn't worry about the twist - the fairly deep rifling will hold a patch ball well. My 14 bore muzzleloader gets superb accuracy to well over 200gr. of 2f in it's 66" twist. My accuracy loads run only to 165gr., though. Easy enough on the shoulder and still fairly efficient per grain of powder. It takes a lot more powder to get much of an increase in velocity.
The Lyman .662" mould casts right at a 1 oz. ball. Use of a 12 ounce Denim should be about .025" per side, giving a bit of compression in the bottom of the grooves. You might not be able to use that heavy a patch, BUT - use as heavy as you can & perhaps a card wad between powder and patched ball. I'm sure you'll be happy with the results.

Here's the recoil at the top of the muzzle's travel. 5 dram charge with a 14 1/2 bore (.682" @ 482gr.)ball - 9 1/2 pound rifle. Before and after the shot. I was aiming at a 200 yard target for a 'postal' match.




Edited by CptCurl (25/11/11 11:23 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: DarylS]
      #149259 - 02/01/10 02:52 AM

around the turn of the last century OWS had have a lot of 14 gauge greener police gun brass. it was 3 dollar for a case then, a good price for 14 ga brass and I take a box from them. the last 50 I had where gone to a collector to fire a very old(around 1860 iirc)Needham double gun. it was nessesary to thin the rim a little bit.
the 12 ga Lee forster slug mould was casting a .705 slug that fits inside the 14 ga perfect.

--------------------
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (02/01/10 02:53 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: lancaster]
      #151183 - 20/01/10 01:54 AM

Not sure if I mentioned it or not, but in testing the cloth patched round balls in my 16/13 bore gun, 13 being the groove depth of the straight rifled tube, the patched balls shoot with much better accuracy than the bare ball loads.

Mind you, I haven't done a lot of shooting with it yet, just preliminary findings. Too, the cloth patched balls lube the bore and keep the fouling soft - another bonus is they don't lead the bores - they can't, being wrapped in cloth. They just don't look as snakey as the bare ball loads is the only detractor.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: DarylS]
      #151215 - 20/01/10 01:05 PM

Good Idea!
I think it would work on my Snider.
Thanks
Martin

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bouldersmith
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: beleg2]
      #191545 - 10/10/11 07:38 AM

Well an time for an update. I had RMC turn me some brass cases, fabricated a new front sight, built a new bridle and loaded it up with 4 drams of Swiss, a 1/8" nitro card and a patched round ball, topped with another nitro card. The groups were as good as I can see at 50 yds, 2 touching and the third a half inch high with a width of less than three quarters of an inch. The gun really likes this load. Now the bad news, the barrel needs to be straightened. It shoots 12" right and low at 50 yds with a very low front bead and the sights lined up in the middle. A new puzzle to work out, but I am growing very fond of this rifle. It may be with me a long time to come. Any know a good man at straightening a rifle barrel?

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DarylS
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #191548 - 10/10/11 09:17 AM

Accuracy sounds great, Too bad about the impact. the elevation is taken up with a higher rear sight - the Windage is a problem.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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bouldersmith
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: DarylS]
      #191551 - 10/10/11 09:45 AM

The rear sight is original to the gun which makes me think that the barrel is bent in both directions. I need to do a bit of research. I think by building a fixture and going slow I can most likely get it right where I want it. Off to do some reading.

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tinkerModerator
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Re: 16 bore rifle questions? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #197260 - 19/12/11 03:44 PM

Definitely sounds great.
You should have sold it to me last year!

You'll figure out the barrel straightening.
Have you miked the wall thickness all around the bore from breech to muzzle?
How is the wood through the wrist and up at the breech?





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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