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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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Yogi000
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120274 - 04/12/08 05:53 AM

395 grains of black is about twice what I have tried beneath a quarter pound 4 bore ball. I would say that thing will have a definite kick.

Yes the big bore 'addiction' is both contagious and veral. 10 gauge and bigger. For me a gun I can carry is part of the requirement, though. The monster guns that you need a stand to shoot them from has no appeal to me. (Punts, etc)

Now that I have my four bore blunderbuss, I am looking at a 10 gauge (or even 8) double barrel that shoots modern shells.

Yes a 4 bore double (cartridge) is hopefully in my future. If I can get my company to start spinning off real money then I will start looking, until then it is a 10 (or 8) gauge double that I can pick up cheap and start fiddling with to shoot slugs using express sights, etc.


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bigdog
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120293 - 04/12/08 11:10 AM

Certainly nothing wrong with an 8 gauge double! or a 10 for that matter.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad


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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: bigdog]
      #120311 - 04/12/08 03:48 PM

Here is a link to a video (and a quite nice website, I'll add) of a friend of mine, Cal Pappas, shooting my 16.5lb 4 with a 2000 grain conical and 383 grains (14 drams) of Goex FFg. Cal is a very experienced double and big-bore shooter and African hunter, who shoots regularly with vintage 600N, 7-bore, and 8-bore doubles. He took a nice buff in Zim with his 600N this fall and will issue what will probably be the definitive 600N history book in the next few months. He's not a small guy either, but even he still needs to take a step back and the barrel goes to 45 degrees. Not for the faint of heart!

Cal Pappas

I can attest to the fact that once you get to more than 10 drams@16.5lbs, it leaves a bruise every time, even with a shoulder pad, and my gun has a rubber pad too. My head often slips back out of my earmuffs with full power loads, which is one more reason they are few and far between. 10 drams loads and even more so their smokeless equivilents are fun all day long.

Having said all of that, my favorite rifle is my pedestrian, refinished(not well) Tolley 10-bore blued-damascus(!!!) 5-dram gun. The price was right, it shoots well, and is the most fun-per-shot gun I own. I don't think you'll go wrong with a 10 or 8 double.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #120346 - 05/12/08 03:09 AM

Bob Your gun is really a beauty. Unfortuneatly video does not play on either of my machines but saw your photos of the gun in full recoil... it is a monster! I don't think mine will kick quite as hard being heavier by almost 2 pounds and shooting a 1500 grain ball but it is going to be fun to find out! Have you had good luck with ffg powder size. Is Goex a type you recommend?

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Yogi000
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120348 - 05/12/08 03:26 AM

Nice link and photos. Makes the big bore addiction itch a bit worse.

On that 10 bore double: how much does it weigh?

My 12 gauge double barrel slug gun is just about 8 pounds and it had a heck of a kick until I put a top of line Pachmayr on it and a mechanical recoil reducer in her. Now even with the hot slug loads I get a very stern but not star making whack.

A short barreled double barrel 10 would be a great addition to my double gun collection.


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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120402 - 05/12/08 06:35 PM

Bill, I use Goex in mine because it is just about the only thing I can get here. FFg seems to burn cleaner for me and gives about 100fps more than Fg for the same charge with a 2000gn conical. I haven't chronoed enough round balls to check the difference with then, just found a good load and stuck to it.

Yogi my 10 weighs a bit over 11lb (I've got the exact weight written down somewhere here) and has shallow 7 groove metford rifle for round balls. It shoots 700gn (1 5/8 ounce) balls at about 1300fps. There are 12 gauge slug loads hotter than that, so recoil is there but not heavy at all.

As to Cal's website, I LOVE all of those big bore pictures too, it gets my pulse going!

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #120419 - 06/12/08 02:18 AM

Thanks Bob. I am going to start out with ffg and see how it goes. I would also like to try conicals but don't think my 1:144 rifling would stabilize them and I had my heart set on mostly shooting round balls fast hence the rifling. Maybe I will try to locate a few just to see how they shoot in the gun.

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Yogi000
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120441 - 06/12/08 04:15 AM

Bill--- I have a 1.00" round ball mould coming to me from Jeff Tanner. He mailed it to me on NOV 8 but unfortunately his wife sent it to my OLD address, the same one when I ordered a .724" round ball mould from him 2 years ago. I hope the post office re-routes to me in my new location.

I see you are in NY too. I would be glad to share the mould with you so you can try 1.00" out in your gun. It would save you at least $80 bucks in mould charge. Also, I have some 1.025 Round Balls that Bob sent me all made up but they would be too big for your application.

Bill, I think your round ball shoting with the heavy powder charges you are talking about will be MORE than adequate for any application you are looking to get yourself into. The heavy conicals would most likely be the proverbial OVERkill.

I will let you know when adn IF the 1.00" round ball mould arrives. Jeff wrote me and said if the first mouold does not arrive soon he will REsend another. So one way or another i will have a 1.00" round ball mould to work with and share.


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DarylS
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120449 - 06/12/08 05:59 AM

Quote:

by Yogi000 - Bill, I think your round ball shoting with the heavy powder charges you are talking about will be MORE than adequate for any application you are looking to get yourself into. The heavy conicals would most likely be the proverbial OVERkill.






: Here's another quote by S. Baker writing in "The Field" 'paper' of March 23rd. 1861 concerning conicals:
: I strongly volte against conical balls for dangerous game; they make too neat a wound, and are very apt to glance on striking a bone. The larger the surface struck the greater will be the benumbing effect of the blow.....In giving an opinion against conical balls for dangerous game, I do so from practical proofs of their inferiority. I had at one time a two-groove single rifle, weighing 21 lbs., carrying a 3 oz. belted ball, with a charge of 12 drachms (drams) powder. This was kind of a "devil stopper," and never failed in flooring a charging elephant, although, if not struck in the brain, he might recover his legs. I had a conical mould make for this rifle, the ball of which weighed 4 oz., but instead of rendering it more invincible, it entirely destroyed its efficacy,(sic - efficiency), and brought me into such scrapes that I at length gave up the conical ball as useless."

Major Shakespear, the author of "Wild Sports in India" says: "I have Minnie bullet-moulds for my rifles; but so long as the spherical bullets go through and through large gme, I do now see the use of running the risk or shaking 9breaking) the stock of the gun, and of extra recoil, by using the heavier balls(minnies)."

Note in this day - and later, generally all projectiles were called 'balls'. There were of course, "spherical balls", ie: round balls and "conical balls" ie: any form of elongated bullet.

Even Greener, who was the strongest supporter of the expansive bullets for military use (minies), wrote in "Gunnery" in 1858 page 404 : "For other purposes other than war, rifles will continue to be constructed on the polygroove (mulitiple groove) principle, and with spherical bullets" He carries on to explain about "The perfect destruction of various animals is dependent generally on two causes---the penetration into the body, and the shock to the system during that act of penetration." No doubt exists that a spherical bullet would combine these two qualities best."
Here, W.Greener, instead of calling all projeciles 'balls' preferred to call them all bullets. Interesting departure to the norm of the day.

So there we have it - in the very large bores, conicals reduced killing power. Their extra penetrative power was not needed as round balls penetrated just fine. The conical's reduction in speed and conical shape reduced the shock to the animal as well as being likely to glance on contact with bone. The "minnie ball caused 'neat wounds' glanced on bones and travelled through the soft parts of the body while spherical balls smashed the bones asunder and caused most grievious wounds" - Surgeon General - Grimean war - coment on expamining wounds of soliders.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120451 - 06/12/08 06:05 AM

Thanks for that Yogi - really appreciate it! You are really a great bunch of guys. The help I have received here is amazing and I am new on the block. Very much appreciated!

Yogi my gun is about 6 months out and my builder thinks he may have a mould he can proof through the gun first so I will definitely let you know. Thanks again!

Oh and I was not too concerned about the power level ;-) 1500 grains at 1450 fps should be enough for anything shy of a dinosaur - just think it is fun to tinker around. Funny thing is (and I know ballistics science would tend to disprove this) but many of the old big time hunters liked hardened round balls better then conicals for tuskers. Not saying it is true but is an interesting argument I don't ever intend on proving or disproving.

Thx again!


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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #120452 - 06/12/08 06:17 AM

Daryl - super informative as always. It also seems many of the hunters who used 4 bore cartridge guns used balls as well - GP Sanderson, CEM Russel, etc. used the Kynoch load with spherical ball on top of 12 to 14 drams. If you read their books you won't hear lack of power mentioned often. I believe Sanderson also advocated the use of the spherical ball over conical and he was talking from experience and a lot of it. Not an arm chair safari guy like me...

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Yogi000
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120456 - 06/12/08 06:49 AM

"Bill the dinosaur hunter"... That is what your friends might start calling you when you commence throwing those 14 dram charges under a quarter pound round ball around. You and Bob will be equipped to take on T-Rex. I raise my hand to play back up man with my 4 bore Blunderbuss. Once he charges he's mine! If I don't knock him down flat I promise to blind him with smoke! hahaha

Yes reading the prior age hunter's detailed books on high dram hunting with round ball is impressive for sure. And, we, ie some of us here, have rediscovered the awesome effectiveness of the round ball for hunting and stopping dangerous game.


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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120457 - 06/12/08 07:02 AM

Too funny. That would be a good team. Jurassic Park 4 - "3 nutcases with 20 lb rifles..." We might have a shot

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Yogi000
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120462 - 06/12/08 08:03 AM

Or--- THREE NUT CASES WITH QUARTER POUND BALLS!

WILL TRAVEL...


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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120463 - 06/12/08 08:08 AM

Even better!

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bigdog
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120467 - 06/12/08 09:36 AM

Jurassic Park---where where, count me in. I have a 4 bore for each arm. Like Doc Holiday says in Toumbstone, if I'm drunk and seeing double, I have one for each of you.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad


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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: bigdog]
      #120474 - 06/12/08 12:55 PM

bigdog you could take out the whole park with your arsenal. I must say I have never seen someone with a more impressive collection of really big bores. Out of your whole collection I would take that Owen's 4 bore double with the short barrels. A four bore double is the most extreme hunting firearm of all time. If you ever want to adopt a grown man in his 30's I am available to talk. I can cook too... :-)

I love the picture of it next to the 700 double. It makes it look like it is a 375 flanged or something.


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DarylS
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120477 - 06/12/08 01:03 PM

Incidently, Francis Seylous once said he'd wished he'd never touched a 4 bore. He stated they ruined his close shooting for the rest of his life. Too bad he was short lived - killed in East Africa during the war - second, I believe. He used Dutch 4 bore smoothbore shotguns for his elephant hunting in very close quarters.

He once shot a bull elephant (or was that John Taylor) with a .600 nitro - rifle doubled and put him backwards on his butt. The elephant fell sideways - only one to ever fall to the off side of the ball or bullet impact. John Taylor, A think. Oh well, only a little .600 nitro, we're talking about big guns.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: DarylS]
      #120482 - 06/12/08 06:33 PM

Code:
 Or--- THREE NUT CASES WITH QUARTER POUND BALLS!



BDog definitely makes 4! I love it.

Selous got killed by a sniper in Africa near the end of WWI. If I remember correctly, he was mid-60s! You have to be a tough SOB to be fighting at that age, but I couldn't think of a better man for the job. He accompanied Roosevelt on his year long safari after he left the presidency. Still a shame though.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


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bigdog
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #120483 - 06/12/08 07:05 PM

Billeastern,

Thanks, I really like the big stuff. I have traded a lot of the guns that I amassed over the last 28 years to get the bigger stuff. I think Safari Kid has 1/2 of my original collection of "regular guns". The double fours are heavy and cumbersome, but they shoot well. The coolness factor is definatly up there. I too was surprised at how small the 700 nitro looks when put next to the 4 bore. The 700 aint no little feller in itself. Still raising 4 kids of my own, so we will have to wait on the adoption for a little while!

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad


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rigbymauser
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #120493 - 06/12/08 10:53 PM

Quote:

I can attest to the fact that once you get to more than 10 [Email]drams@16.5lbs[/Email], it leaves a bruise every time. Bob




Oh yes it does...10 drams and a 900 grain leadbullet on top in a 14 Ibs gun.....KA-BOOOM ...but what a fun...


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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: bigdog]
      #120502 - 07/12/08 12:23 AM

Bigdog:

I have gone through much of the same. Many trades for new toys. I must say this is my first venture into an ultra large bore. I smirk at the thought of what the boys down at the range will think. My buddy brought his 500 nitro double down one day and those fellas thought we were shooting a damn cannon. Wait til they get a look at this thing, especially with all the smoke and noise. You should really be more open minded about the adoption. I come with additional guns and an income;-).

I am off to do some shooting with this great old mauser I just uncovered. Have a great day or night guys depending on where you are.


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bigdog
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120524 - 07/12/08 09:16 AM

Now you'er talkin, anyway to get a little more disposable income for guns and bullets!

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad


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Yogi000
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: billeastern]
      #120685 - 09/12/08 06:22 AM

I second Daryl's "emotion": Real Black Powder is the way to go. I started with that modern replacement stuff and just had too many bad ignitions. Plus when I finally succombed and graduated to real Black Powder I was smiling for a week!

Plus and I cannot explain why, but it seemed my accuracy and consistency improved. I prefer the fet recoil too. And I think the cleanup is actually easier.

On all counts real Black Powder is superlative to the replacement stuff.


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billeastern
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Re: 4 bore ball size - sorry should have posted here initial [Re: Yogi000]
      #120692 - 09/12/08 07:59 AM

Any brands you recommend? Looks like I will be using ffg for size. Thx

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