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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle
      #117472 - 23/10/08 06:48 AM

I wonder how much they think it can bring??.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100060388&string=cid=104

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Bramble
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: rigbymauser]
      #117479 - 23/10/08 10:11 AM

Well Jens

If nobody notices the colours of the recase hardening or the finish on the stock then $10,000

If anybody looks closley then 1/2 that or less.

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gatsby
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: rigbymauser]
      #117489 - 23/10/08 12:47 PM

I believe the gun is listed in the photo archives here on Nitroexpress. If so, it is a true roundball smooth bore gun. Again if it is the same gun, and I think it is, several knowledgable collectors believe the finishes are all original. If it was, hypothetically speaking, refinished and done well with pristene chamber and bore dimensions,would it change the value dramatically? Where is there another? The world's economies are in chaos but can you really buy a Holland 8 bore for 10K?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Huvius
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: gatsby]
      #117498 - 23/10/08 04:55 PM

I know of an H&H 8 bore "smooth bore paradox" (?) for 6KGBP with the same case length and charge and barrel length as this one. I don't know if it has a rear sight as this one does though
Look closely at the locks on this one - looks like they are for a straight gripped gun. Pistol grip H&H back action hammer guns generally have a bit of downward curve to them. These look straight - especially on the lefthand view.
For this to have survived uncased with virtually no loss of colors - especially on the underside - would be truly incredible.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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gatsby
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: Huvius]
      #117507 - 23/10/08 06:33 PM

A paradox is rifled. A gun with paradox serial numbering with no rifling most certainly has been altered. True ball guns seem to be rare. I think this gun was at Caswell's for a time and he believed it to be original. I know what you mean about the locks but on the early rounded hammer guns they may be straight. I have an early 12 Holland rife and the locks are straight. I don't know of another early 8 to compare it to.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Bramble
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: gatsby]
      #117510 - 23/10/08 07:16 PM

Quote:

I believe the gun is listed in the photo archives here on Nitroexpress. If so, it is a true roundball smooth bore gun. Again if it is the same gun, and I think it is, several knowledgable collectors believe the finishes are all original. If it was, hypothetically speaking, refinished and done well with pristene chamber and bore dimensions,would it change the value dramatically? Where is there another? The world's economies are in chaos but can you really buy a Holland 8 bore for 10K?



Unless those photos are just very badly shot:
the stock finish is far too shiney.
The finish is shiney all over the chekering.
The wear pattern on the barrels at the breach does not match the lack of wear on the CCH of the action.
There is a distinct lack of wear to the CCH on the extended top tang.
The action CCH does not match the CCH on the locks.

Hypothetically if it were refinished correctly it may not change the value dramitically as it could be difficult to see where it had been done. However I feel, and it is only an opinion of course, that this is not the case here.

Regards

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jaz
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: rigbymauser]
      #117548 - 24/10/08 04:42 AM

Gatsby is correct, I used to own the gun.
I collect Holland double rifles and have a pretty good feel for them. I am 99.9% sure this gun is exactly as described. George Caswell told me he was 99% and I did not believe it until I received it. The wear on the coloring is worn exactly where you would think it should be.
The barrel length is exactly what the Holland Ledger page says and the weight is exactly the same as well. A normal shotgun of this caliber would have 36 to 42" barrels. The charge is 10 drams, no shotgun used that much powder. The gun has an extended top strap which only their rifles had. The bores are exactly the proper dimension, not waivering one thousandth throughout, .832 as proofed.

Comparing this to a Paradox which has the rifling removed is ridiculous.
JZ

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Huvius
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: jaz]
      #117552 - 24/10/08 05:40 AM

Quote:

A normal shotgun of this caliber would have 36 to 42" barrels. The charge is 10 drams, no shotgun used that much powder.
Comparing this to a Paradox which has the rifling removed is ridiculous.
JZ



Not comparing, just making an observation. That is what my (?) was for.
Would the paradox use a 10 dram charge and 26" barrels like the fully rifled gun?
If the action is marked for the 10 dram charge, is it assumed that it is a rifle action?
Just thinking the other gun may be worth looking into...

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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jaz
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: Huvius]
      #117564 - 24/10/08 09:49 AM

I have an 8 Paradox and the charge on it is 8 to 10 Drams. I do not believe that Micks 8 is available.
JZ

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tinkerModerator
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: jaz]
      #117568 - 24/10/08 11:09 AM

Showing *sold guns* on inventories isn't uncommon, especially when the pieces are relatively rare and interesting.
One of my rifles is still shown by a dealer as 'for sale' in a couple of places. I can recall numerous rifles I've called on that were out there in long-gonesville.
Chalk the site maintenance issues up to swift business..?
;-)

That 8b Holland is likely a hoot and a half to shoot.
Guess I'm just a 'junior' enthusiast with my smallbore 20b and 16b rifles.
Some day when I grow some more hair on my brow...



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Bramble
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: tinker]
      #117572 - 24/10/08 11:35 AM

Jaz
It is good to have a former owner of the gun post.

Do those pictures accuratly reflect the condition of the gun when you had it?

What I said in my post, as I said in the post, is only an opinion and I mean no disrespect to you or Mr Casewell.
However The CCH on the action is very bright, far more so than I would expect from a H+H of this age and I cannot reconcile it with the obvious wear to the barrels at the action face, or the trigger guard and bottom strap and forend catch.

The stock appears very light in colour and the grain very open, the pad is far more worn than the stock. The finish is very shiney especially over the chekering.There is a gap, pad to stock and it appears to me it was possibly removed to refinish.

As to its general authenticity if it matches H+H records that is the answer.

Returning to the first post, what do you think it will fetch Jaz?

Regards

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tinkerModerator
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: Bramble]
      #117573 - 24/10/08 12:58 PM

To compare and contrast the imaging and presentation styles used to depict this H&H, see our DR Archive thread and then look at the Puglisi Guns page on this big 8b machine.


There are a couple of views in the DR Arcive set that seem to support old/orig finish.
The PugsGuns site gives a much more 'oiled down and ready for the money shot' kind of perspective.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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jaz
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 188
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: Bramble]
      #117574 - 24/10/08 01:03 PM

Bramble
No disrespect felt here. We need to gain knowledge,
I believe the reason that the case colors are so vivid is that there is a very heavy coating of laquer on all the areas that show intense color. On the places where it is worn through as on the side of the breech, the color is worn through, not removed, down almost to fine pitting. You can not reproduce that wear. The location of wear is also on the top strap and on the side of the action where your hand holds the gun. It is a great piece.The best part is the Damascus barrels to me.

Regarding the stock, it may have been refinished at one time but who knows, but more so, who cares?. The rifle is over 120 years old, if it was redone 80 years ago that would be 1928! I chuckle when people comment" too bad the barrels were re-blacked". It was normal to have them re-blacked every 5 to 10 years or as needed. Suppose a game gun built in 1928 was reblacked every 5 years for twenty years then it sat for another 60 years, these same comment how original the barrels look.

Ball guns are very unique. They were built lighter than rifles and at close hand did as good as a fully rifled gun, but 3-4 lbs. less. Accuracy is excellent to 60 yards. Elephant are usually shot within 40 yards. You could also poor a handful of shot into it and shoot effectively.


Regarding speculating on the price, I'd rather not, as I do not know what Jack wants for the gun. How many Holland 8's do you see? Micks is altered. There is a real re-do in Australia and that one is 27,000, but you can't send it back. The last 8 Holland I saw sell in the States was low 40's. In today's market I see 450/400 Jeffrey's with the cartoon engraving selling for the mid 20's. 6 years ago Don at Cape Outfitters had a dozen of these that could be had for $4-6,000. Money in he stock market is falling, buy quality English guns and you never lose.


JAZ

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: Bramble]
      #117578 - 24/10/08 07:08 PM

Bramble,
I can see where you're coming from regarding the case colours appearing very strong compared to other parts of the finish on that gun.
They do appear that way in those photos.
What I can say however is that it can be very hard to judge much just from photographs.
It is not difficult to photograph any rifle and make it appear good or bad, bright or dull finish, deep engraving or shallow engraving, gaps between wood and metal or no gaps anywhere, good blueing or worn blueing, all with the very same rifle, just by using different techniques with the camera and lighting.

Those colours may not look that way if you were looking at the real thing rather than those photos.

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1970
Loc: Denmark
Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: 4seventy]
      #117592 - 25/10/08 12:23 AM

The gun is OK...but smooth boreguns does not reach my interst(wallet) at all. A paradox rifled gun would do as a compromise. It appears that this "pucklish emporium" loves overpricing...huh!!... I wonder if I were to sell them a gun they would give me an "overprice"??

Edited by rigbymauser (25/10/08 12:25 AM)

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bigdog
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: rigbymauser]
      #117594 - 25/10/08 01:57 AM

Jack over at Puglisi Gun Emporium may have some stuff priced high, but he has sold a ton of good guns over the last 25 years. There must be a good market for guns at these prices somewhere or he would not have built the business he has now. He does have some very nice inventory.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad

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Huvius
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: rigbymauser]
      #117603 - 25/10/08 04:04 AM

So, is the gun at Puglisi not rifled?

Certainly, the asking prices at Puglisi are high - but that is not an indicator of what the guns are actually selling at.
If I were looking to consign my collection in whole, Puglisi is one which I would consider. I like high prices when selling - not so much when buying.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by Huvius (25/10/08 04:07 AM)

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tinkerModerator
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: Huvius]
      #117604 - 25/10/08 04:32 AM

Huvis-

From our DR Archive thread...


"...Built in June 1889. This is a true "Ball Gun". Smooth bore. Built for 10 drams and a spherical bullet or shot. Pistol grip with extended top strap, rebounding hammers. The bore dimensions are .835" throughout both bores. Barrels are 26"..."


I agree on the 'where to sell' comment.
My sense is that where appropriate, the big dollars pay for rare examples and *condition*!



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Huvius
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: tinker]
      #117606 - 25/10/08 05:10 AM

Then, was the gun that is on Micksguns website built to the same specification?
I know he calls it a smoothbore paradox, but does that mean it was originally rifled at the muzzles and altered or actually a smoothbore by another name?
If that gun did indeed sell for 6000GBP, what over that does the originality of the Pug. gun command?
Seems like, other than condition, we may be comparing "apples to apples" here.
Does anybody know more about the 8bore on micksguns?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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tinkerModerator
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: Huvius]
      #117610 - 25/10/08 05:54 AM

Huvis-

I do not know the lineage of Mick's 8b

Something to note though is that 'paradox' and 'smooth bore ball and shot rifle' are not the same.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Huvius
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: tinker]
      #117617 - 25/10/08 08:01 AM

Duly noted.
I thought perhaps that by using the description: "smoothbore paradox" Mick was saying the same thing as "smooth bore ball and shot rifle"
Either way, a very fine gun to own, and as stated above, must be entertaining to shoot.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Bramble
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: 4seventy]
      #117619 - 25/10/08 08:38 AM

Yes Alan I can see that. The link John posted to the archive pictures are much better. Perhaps Jaz might do a deal with the current vendor to use them insted.
Jaz's are a much more honest set of pictures and I think the current ones do the gun no favours at all.
That is why I asked Jaz if the Pugs pictures were as he remembered the gun, when you look closley at the patterns it is the same gun and the same finish but what a difference in photos. This is also why I prefaced my responses with "or bad photographs" It looks like they sprayed the whole gun in silicone or some such thing.

I actually have no issue with refinished guns, I would rather see this than them gradually deteriating.
A loved and hard hunted gun might be refinished many times in its life. If it is properly done, as Jaz said so what.

Having looked at my first post in reply to Rigby Mauser, it strikes me now that perhaps no body else knows that Jens and I are friends, the first comment about price was not to be taken seriously hence the smilie, he likes big bore guns and this was a bit of an ironic joke not an estimate.

Regards

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jaz
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: Bramble]
      #117622 - 25/10/08 09:26 AM

Huvuis-
I mean no disrespect but you are comparing Apples and Oranges,
- Micks gun is a 15xxx serial number which means it is a Paradox
- The Paradox rifling is bored out, cut the value 40 - 60%
- The Ball gun is an original
JAZ

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Huvius
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: jaz]
      #117626 - 25/10/08 11:02 AM

None taken.
That is the clarification I was looking for. Thanks.
Not knowing H&H serial numbers, and the gun not being described as bored out, how is a novice to know?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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gatsby
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Re: 8 bore Holland & Holland Double rifle [Re: Huvius]
      #117637 - 25/10/08 03:00 PM

Quote:


Not knowing H&H serial numbers, and the gun not being described as bored out, how is a novice to know?



By asking questions and doing your research. Sometimes a difficult task, unless your aware of Nitroexpress. Mick is not asking for the moon with his Holland 8, its probably priced accordingly but can you live with its faults?

Rigbym,
True big bore made for DG smoothbore ballguns seem to be quite rare. I have only seen 4 including the Holland under discussion that by their configuration (length weight and charge) and documentation (factory records) could be described as, ball guns, elephant guns etc. Made specifically for close encounters with angry animals they need not shoot as has been stated earlier more than 60yds but with more velocity and less recoil than a fully rifled gun.
Big bore paradoxes aren't a compromise. The dirty little secret about the big paradox guns is they are very accurate and easy to regulate even with a little wear in their bores.
Another good read is Sanderson "Thirteen Years Amoung The Wild Beasts of India". My avitar is the business end of a ballgun as described in the book.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by gatsby (25/10/08 03:03 PM)

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