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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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rigbymauser
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Loc: Denmark
10Bore Holland &Holland...
      #114354 - 14/09/08 05:46 AM

....somebodystopmenow...





Auctioned at James Julia

Edited by rigbymauser (14/09/08 03:04 PM)


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gatsby
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: rigbymauser]
      #114357 - 14/09/08 07:17 AM

Nice looking Holland. 10 bore rifles by Holland are not plentiful. Somewhat unusual charge.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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bigdog
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: gatsby]
      #114360 - 14/09/08 08:12 AM

Very nice looking gun. What are they asking for it??

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad


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Sarg
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: bigdog]
      #114364 - 14/09/08 09:07 AM

Great rifle !
But no better than the one you have I think , other than the name maybe ?
Your 10 looks to be a cracker !


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rigbymauser
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: bigdog]
      #114390 - 14/09/08 02:42 PM

Quote:

Very nice looking gun. What are they asking for it??




This is what they say about the gun:

HOLLAND & HOLLAND HAMMER DOUBLE RIFLE WITH CASE AND ACCESSORIES. SN 11145. Cal. 10ga. Double triggers. Rebounding locks. Jones underlever. 27" Dove-tailed steel bbls w/ broad flat rib w/ single standing platinum lined rear express sight, longitudinally dove-tailed front sight w/ silver and flip-up beads. The rear portion of the rib is file cut and terminates in a large dolls head extension. The bbl is engraved "Holland & Holland, 98 New Bond Street. London." on the top of the right bbl and "Winners of all the "field" rifle trials. London. 1883." on the left. The bbl flats are stamped w/ Birmingham black powder re-proof marks for 3-1/4" chambers "103 grains black powder" and "1031 Grs bullet". The bottoms of the bbls are stamped SN "1145" (1892). The case hardened action has back action side locks w/ rebounding low profile hammers and Jones underlever, and is border engraved. The trigger guard is engraved w/ SN "11145". The lightly streaked and figured English walnut full pistol grip buttstock measures 14-1/2" over a Silvers type pad and features eyes for sling, vacant silver oval on toe line, cheek piece for right handed shooter, steel pistol grip cap, and 16 LPI borderless checkering. The splinter forend has a lever release and is checkered to match buttstock. Drop at heel: 2", drop at comb: 1-5/8". Weight:11 lbs 8 oz. Oak and leather case has brass corners, round central medallion on the lid. Dark red velvet interior w/ Holland & Holland label. Accessories include 2 brass oil bottles no. 11145 stamped on the tops, 3 ebony handled turn screws, brass striker case, bone parts bottle, 2 brass 10 bore snap caps, 10 bore wad cutter, rosewood handled whisk broom, BGI recapper, ring type stuck case remover, 2-pc ebony cleaning rod, and a large brass single cavity 10 bore conical bullet mold w/ base plug stamped w/ initials "J.G" and no. "11145." There is one empty brass cartridge case, a chamber cast, and some wads. PROVENANCE: Transcription of a letter from Holland & Holland dated Mar 3, 1999 w/ particulars of gun, and a copy of the record book showing that the rifle was made for a Mr. Lethbridge. CONDITION: Excellent as refurbished. Letter of provenance states that after its last trip to Africa, at which time it took 2 cape buffalo, this rifle was returned to Holland & Holland to be redone. It has not been taken on a hunt since that time. Rifle currently exhibits a condition commensurate w/ that statement, but shows a few very light handling marks in wood. There are a couple small chips of wood missing from the forend in front of the bottom of the forend iron, and behind the take down lever. The action is tight and on face. Bores are very strong, shiny, but w/ scattered light pitting throughout. Case is very fine w/ smooth leather w/ a few scuffs. Interior partitions are tight. Velvet is clean. Accessories are very good. These large caliber bore rifles are fairly scarce. This one cries to go back to Africa. 4-33446 MGM32 (17,500-27,500)


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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: Sarg]
      #114391 - 14/09/08 02:51 PM

Quote:

Great rifle !
But no better than the one you have I think , other than the name maybe ?
Your 10 looks to be a cracker !




I think you are right

By looking at my gun versus this H&H, it appears very very similar. Mine has 1+2 express-sights, the H&H hasn`t....Other than that I see no difference. Mine however has the borecaliber marked(.793") which indicate that it was made later. I have looked and looked...I haven`t seen a 10bore regulated up to 10 drams of black like mine. All litterature points the 10 bore as a "8 dramer".
I still like mine....hahahaha


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Sarg
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: rigbymauser]
      #114403 - 14/09/08 04:59 PM

Rigbymauser , I sent you a PM about the front sight on your 10 bore & where to get one like it for my 12 Bore , did you get it ?

It looks like my rifle is at the very least a 8 Dram gun but more like a 9 Dram shooting 600Gr round balls @ 1800 + fps , by the twist & sights & weight ! hope to give it a go on wild cattle here frist then try it on a Buff or 2 !
Have you booked your Buff hunt with the 10 yet ?


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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: Sarg]
      #114405 - 14/09/08 05:14 PM

Quote:

Rigbymauser , I sent you a PM about the front sight on your 10 bore & where to get one like it for my 12 Bore , did you get it ?

It looks like my rifle is at the very least a 8 Dram gun but more like a 9 Dram shooting 600Gr round balls @ 1800 + fps , by the twist & sights & weight ! hope to give it a go on wild cattle here frist then try it on a Buff or 2 !
Have you booked your Buff hunt with the 10 yet ?




I havenīt recieved a PM...but here we go..




I am going to africa next year, but not for BG..PG only with my .333Jeffery and 400/350 rigbymauser..


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Sarg
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: rigbymauser]
      #114414 - 14/09/08 06:40 PM

Yes thats the sight ! I think I read on a tread that you changed it , and I was wondering where you got it from ?
My sight is too fine , alright for prairie dog shooting !!

I hope you have fun on your African hunt !


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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: Sarg]
      #114475 - 15/09/08 03:37 PM

That charge seems strange to me. Shouldn't it have been listed in drams? Beautiful gun!

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


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JabaliHunter
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #114493 - 15/09/08 07:22 PM

Maybe that has something to do with the date of refurbishment and re-proof?

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jaz
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #114497 - 15/09/08 09:12 PM

Unless I missed something, Is this gun rifled or a smoothbore?? 11.7 lbs is awfully light for a 10 bore rifle. My 10 Holland Paradox is 13.8 lbs. Whenever the former proof marks are removed, I am most suspect.
JZ


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Sarg
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: jaz]
      #114503 - 15/09/08 09:58 PM

When I rang the Birmingham proof house about my rifle , the chap I spoke to there said it was illegal for the old proof marks to be removed ?
Yet I have read here before of them being removed ?
What are the facts on this ?


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gatsby
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: jaz]
      #114506 - 15/09/08 11:55 PM

Jaz,
The weight of the gun is right for a 6 dram charge but the proofs would indicate in grains a less than 4 dram charge. I would like to see the ledger page on this gun/rifle, perhaps the gun was built light per request.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: gatsby]
      #114512 - 16/09/08 12:50 AM

3 3/4 drams seems to be the regulated charge. That is mild indeed. One would hope it will shoot something more as it's trajectory will be like a musket - dismal at best.
: A 9 dram charge (245.7gr.) will not make 1,800fps with a 10 bore round ball, let alone a conical. I know this from chronographing my 14 bore, which gave only 1,770fps with it's .684", 484gr. ball. I do not believe a 10 bore will make 1,800fps without smokeless, and even then, not within regulation.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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gatsby
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: DarylS]
      #114521 - 16/09/08 01:21 AM

Daryl,
A standard Holland 10 rifle with a 3 1/4" chamber would be regulated for 8 drams 950gr bullet at 1450fps in a 10 rifle and a 6 dram 2 5/8 chambered gun would shoot the same bullet at 1250fps. Anything is certainly possible but not the norm.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Sarg
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: DarylS]
      #114547 - 16/09/08 08:00 AM

Daryl
If you meant my post ? I was talking about 3in 12 Bore 15lb rifle ,only got this by reading up all I can on Bore guns , I did see a refence to a 4 1/2in 11 Dram 12 Bore once ! now that must have been some thing !


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gatsby
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: Sarg]
      #114554 - 16/09/08 09:54 AM

Sarg
What is the case length on your 12 bore?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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jaz
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: gatsby]
      #114556 - 16/09/08 10:18 AM

Hey there!!! so personal...

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Sarg
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: jaz]
      #114557 - 16/09/08 10:47 AM

Sorry I meant to talk to ever one !
My rifle has chambers 3.111in long by the cast , so 12 Bore 3in and it comes in at 14Lbs 14oz
I presume it takes the largest 3in load ?
I just ordered a .736 round ball mould from CBE today !
Oh has 1 in 84 twist I think !


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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: Sarg]
      #114567 - 16/09/08 01:08 PM

Posted by Daryl: "ONLY 1,770fps with it's .684", 484gr. ball."

I like the way you think. 1770 is SCREAMING!

My Tolley 2 5/8" 5 dram rifle weighs about 11.5lb. According to Tolley's info, it SHOULD (if you believe 19th century advertising) make 1300fps with a 700 grain ball.

I too would love a look at the ledger page on this one. It is certainly a beautiful gun.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


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gatsby
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: Sarg]
      #114574 - 16/09/08 03:11 PM

Jaz,
No offense intended, but we have mention 3 guns in this post and I was interested in Sarg's gun's chamber length and I also wanted to acknowledge to whom and what my responses were directed. That does not preclude answers from all members.
I think JBHunter is right about the charge and bullet weight on the barrel flats of the Julia Holland.

Sarg,
I love the engraving on your 12. What do the barrels weigh and what are their length? I think you are right, it probably is intended for a large charge, 8 drams+ maybe 10.

Edited by gatsby (16/09/08 03:16 PM)


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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: gatsby]
      #114581 - 16/09/08 05:01 PM

OK, I may sound a bit paranoid, but here are my questions about the proof marks:

-on the right barrel, there is a faint "P" to the left of the BP mark, and the hint of a diamond below the diamond 10 mark.

-I've never seen a BP gun with proof that spelled out "BLACK POWDER" Is this a modern convention? If so, as of when?

-the crown R stamp appears to be double/over stamped

-on the left barrel, there is the crossed swords marking after the bullet weight, but it isn't on the other barrel?

-finally, all of the marks appear far too clear and distinct for a 125 year old gun.

-CAN proof marks be removed and the gun resubmitted? Can they be destroyed outside of the UK and then sent back to "restore" the gun to proof?

Now I'm the first to admit I don't know a thing about proof marks, and am not trying to criticize this piece. I'd love to buy it! I'm asking for my own education and curiousity. It certainly appears to be designed for charges greater than a paltry 3.75 drams, but then again, it is on the light side for an 8-10 dram gun and such issues as the proper power/weight combination weren't definitavely settled in 1883. If that is the case, it only makes it all the more interesting in my book. What's everyone else's take on this one?

Best Regards,
Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


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jaz
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #114597 - 16/09/08 09:17 PM

Paul - it was an attempt at being funny...
This ten , by Julia's admission, is a re-stamp. The "R" denotes reproof. These are modern proof marks. If it ever was made with a 3.250" barrels, which I doubt, there would have been an "LC" on the flats. This chamber would have been made for 2 7/8" case. 8 drams of powder would have easily fit in the smaller case.The 3.250 bore out was done to shoot modern shells. I have a H&H 10 game gun reproofed to 3.25 .
Does this gun have a long top strap? Do we know if the barrels are rifled? Two big questions. I'll try and call today.
JAZ


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rigbymauser
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: jaz]
      #114615 - 17/09/08 03:42 AM

A little "Bark" from me here..

In the old catalog from H&H( 1887-1890), they advertize for a 12bore "xtra powerfull" loaded with 9 drams of black. I believe that load should/would/ought to be a 3.25" case in order to contain 9 drams. The weight of this rifle is between 14.5-15Ibs.
In the same catalog , H&H also advertize for 10 bore, shooting 9-10 drams black and a an 8bore shooting 10-12drams black. All of them using round ball or short bluffheaded cone bullet.
I believe from looking at various of old catalogs, gunbooks etc the "normal" 10 bore paradox was a 2 7/8"(70mm) case, shooting a 875grain bullet @ 1550 Ft/Sec with 8 drams of black.
The 3.25" inch shell for doublerifles in 12 and 10 was not introduced until 1887-88, and the H&H gunmakers was apparently the first to offer them.By 1906 catalog its all gone.
Tolley was maybe the last to still offer fully rifled 8-10bore up 1st WW in their standard lineup.
My Manton, like this H&H 10bore appears to have been made by WC Scott. My asumption for this, is that on all the hammers doublesrifles, backaction, jones underlever, I have studied as so far, books, internet etc has the same profiling, of hammers and pecussion fences... very identical with those made by WC Scott. I can be wrong though, but everything points that way...so far.

Sir William Gordon Cumming stats after consulting Sir Samuel baker in England, that Baker recommend 10 bores carrying 12 drams of black.

My manton does 1745Ft/sec with 900 grain teflon wrapped bullet which translates over 6000 Ft/Ibs.
I believe even the old 8 bore with 1460 grain bullet loaded with 10-12 drams of black could reach the 600 NitroEX in striking and smashingpower.

Edited by rigbymauser (17/09/08 04:23 AM)


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gatsby
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: rigbymauser]
      #114632 - 17/09/08 12:09 PM

I believe Holland kind of searched for a "normal" paradox 10 bore load upon introduction. You find several 6 dram and other anomalies in some early guns. They did settle on the 10(9)bore 2 7/8 case 8 dram load with a 900gr+ bullet at 1465fps. That is the load that they duplicated with cordite for their nitro paradox 10(9) bore, the last to made in 1929. One other note, all the Holland 10 bore rifles and paradoxes excluding the Julia gun I have seen (more than a dozen)have had dished actions, many made by presumably Scott.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Sarg
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: gatsby]
      #114651 - 17/09/08 06:25 PM

I havn,t got the weight for the barrels & no scales , sorry , they are very heavy & 24in long !
Yes I really like the engraving & the massiveness of the whole rifle ! I,m going to try for a 8 bore one day !


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gatsby
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: Sarg]
      #115241 - 23/09/08 04:15 PM

Here are a couple of Holland load sheets from the original cases.










Sarg,
I would like to see photos of all the engraving on all sides of your 12, if you ever get the chance.

Edited by gatsby (23/09/08 04:43 PM)


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Sarg
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: gatsby]
      #115346 - 24/09/08 08:51 AM

Gatsby , I have posted 3 sides of the Tolly under J W Tolly, the other side is the same , but the Elephant is looking at you on the other side , I hope that will do ?
Thank you for the interst in it , if you find any info on the Tolly or know some loads please let me know !


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gatsby
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: gatsby]
      #116576 - 10/10/08 03:48 AM

I guess the Holland 10 at Julias sold for about 24,000.00 US with buyers premium. It was fully rifled and a 3 1/4" 8 dram gun, and I suppose a true 10 bore(.775).

Sarg,
I went back and looked at your photos, very nice and very unique.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: gatsby]
      #116792 - 13/10/08 03:49 AM

Just been reading Bartle Bull "safari chronical". On page 145 the book mentiones that Arthur Neumann used a heavy 10 bore from H&H, when he felt his .577 wasn`t enough. He preferred solid lead bullets.

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gatsby
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: rigbymauser]
      #116795 - 13/10/08 04:30 AM

RigbyM,
If you can find a copy of With rifle in 5 Continents by Paul Niedick it is a good read. Mr. Niedick uses a 10 bore paradox to dispatch an Indian elephant, a hippo and a buffalo. He often reaches for the Holland in sticky situations or for the coup de gras. He also has a couple of comments on the recoil of the gun and at times seems quick to hand it off to another in the hunting party. I think a big 10, as bore guns go, is the perfect balance between power and recoil.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Re: 10Bore Holland &Holland... [Re: gatsby]
      #116806 - 13/10/08 05:28 AM

Quote:

RigbyM,
If you can find a copy of With rifle in 5 Continents by Paul Niedick it is a good read. Mr. Niedick uses a 10 bore paradox to dispatch an Indian elephant, a hippo and a buffalo. He often reaches for the Holland in sticky situations or for the coup de gras. He also has a couple of comments on the recoil of the gun and at times seems quick to hand it off to another in the hunting party. I think a big 10, as bore guns go, is the perfect balance between power and recoil.




Thanks Gatsby
Any reading with someone who pulls a double 10 up from the south/west positioned scabbard when trouble troubles , can keep me awake...yehaaaa...

Edited by rigbymauser (13/10/08 05:35 AM)


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